Dr Caroline Johnson
MP for Sleaford and North Hykeham · Conservative · United Kingdom
“So someone was watching to make sure he was safe, and I am so glad that was the case, but it is so very rapid, as others hon. Members have testified. There is no single test. There is no single thing we can monitor or measure that helps.”
“I want to mention group B streptococcal infection, which I have seen in paediatric practice, particularly in babies. It is a common bacteria that lives harmlessly in the gut or lower reproductive tract, but there is a risk that it can enter the bloodstream, causing neonatal sepsis when passed to newborns.”
“The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation met in July 2026 and suggested an increase in the vaccination schedule for those young people.”
“I remember sitting in this Chamber a little over two years ago—I am sure you were there too, Madam Deputy Speaker—when the then Member for South Thanet, now Lord Mackinlay, received a rare standing ovation from the House and from the Gallery as he returned to Parliament following his remarkable recovery from sepsis.”
“That was a good start, but of course, as always with medicine, there is more to do, and it was pleasing to see the previous Starmer Government build on this work by introducing the modern service framework for sepsis. We have modern service frameworks for other diseases, and it seems good to have one for sepsis specifically.”
“I remember seeing a patient whose mum had got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom—not something she did normally, and she was not quite sure why she had on that particular night—and when she was walking back along the landing, she thought, “It’s a bit cold—I’ll just check.” She checked her son had his blankets on and was war…”
The complete record
Every one of 604 lines we hold for Dr Caroline Johnson, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 5 of 13.
“On pages 8 and 9 of the Dash review, Dr Dash talks about this. She states: “Recommendations are…focused on inputs, rather than outputs or outcomes, and fail to…balance…risks within organisations and across systems…the existence of so many recommendations causes considerable confusion for staff. They result in more clinical staff moving into supervisory roles to check that other…staff are adhering to the recommendations. The overwhelming majority of recommendations lack data as to the cost of implementation or the expected impact.” She recognised, did she not, that there was a problem with people being asked to check up on one another’s work and check up on their work? But the recommendations do not deal with that, perhaps because the scope, as my right hon. Friend has described, is so narrow.”
“My hon. Friend is making a very important case about the importance of the perception of independence and the safe space actually being safe. There is a risk that people feel that they will be hounded or—”
“My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight East was talking about the importance of the perception of the safe space, in relation to people being able to come forward, and the fears of whistleblowers. Does he agree with me that it is not just this perception that causes potential whistleblowers to worry? If they read the newspapers on a regular basis, or are on social media, they will see examples of people who have suffered mistreatment as the result of having been whistleblowers.”
“My understanding is that, in the past, HSSIB has provided services to not only British health services but overseas health services, which were, in some cases, charged for that service, as it is a world-leading organisation. Why would the Minister not want that to continue?”
“The Minister seems to be saying that her reasoning for moving HSSIB into the CQC is to ensure that actions take place in response to the recommendations. But if HSSIB outwith the CQC makes recommendations that are delivered by the provider organisations, commissioned by the ICBs and overseen by Ministers, and then the CQC checks that as part of the regulation, why does HSSIB need to be within the CQC for that to happen?”
“The Minister has reassured us that, although it has not been lifted and shifted from the original, the amendment is a duplication of another clause. Therefore, we believe the Committee—”
“I have just a couple of questions. Clause 62 will update the CQC’s power to conduct special reviews of NHS commissioning to cover ICBs and the Secretary of State’s commissioning functions, and the requirement for ministerial approval before the CQC can investigate will be retained. How will that apply when HSSIB is moved into the CQC? Is it the Minister’s intention that HSSIB will need the Secretary of State’s approval to complete investigations?”
“As the Minister said, clause 63 amends section 90(2) of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 to extend the limit on proceedings relating to the registration of offences under part 1 from three to five years. The impact assessment talks a little about the time it takes to investigate these cases, but as the Minister said, the time to investigate is 12 months from the CQC being given enough evidence to consider whether the case is prosecutable. Why has she chosen not to change that too? Does she think people will have enough time to investigate? She is looking puzzled.”
“I just wonder in practical terms why, given that it will take three years to come into effect in any case, it will not come into force on the day the Act receives Royal Assent. The impact assessment talks about the CQC prosecuting two or three additional cases a year, and a cost of £4.3 million over 10 years with fines of £2.7 million over 10 years. Will the regulator keep the fines, or will they go back into the Treasury? Can the Minister guarantee that the additional funds that are estimated to be required for the additional cases under this new regulation will be provided so that the CQC can do the investigations that she is giving it the opportunity to do?”
“The Minister talked about changing the time period in which proceedings can be effected from three to five years, but once the CQC is aware that an investigation could be brought and there is evidence that needs to be looked at, it will still get only 12 months. That has not been changed. I wonder what the rationale is for that. I am not criticising it; I am just asking the question. The other issue is that clause 63 is prospective, so if an offence were committed immediately after the Act was passed, for the first three years things would effectively be as they are now; the change from three years to five would be relevant only after three years. Clause 71(2) on commencement provides that clause 63 will not come into force until two months after the Act is passed.”
“People will give their views when they think they can do so independently and safely—a principle that was echoed in the debate this morning. Removing the independence does not seem necessary, and I do not understand why the Minister thinks that it will improve patient care and thereby patient safety. It is clear that Members not only on the Opposition Benches, but right across the Government Benches—in fact, potentially the new Prime Minister from next week or the week after—may think the same. I encourage the Minister to reconsider this step.”
“He wrote to the former Secretary of State last year saying: “People speak to Healthwatch because they are outside the system—they are impartial, trusted, and provide a safe space for concerns to be shared.” Does the Minister agree? If so, why does she want to remove the independence of patient voice? The right hon. Member for Makerfield also said: “The independence of resident and patient voice is a necessity. Without it, we risk losing the trust of the public, the richness of lived experience, and the ability to challenge and improve the system from within, particularly during this time of significant system reform”. My plea to the Minister is this: think again about the importance of the independence of patient voice.”
“Member for Blaydon and Consett said: “I understand that the Government’s real intention, through the Bill, is to strengthen the patient voice and the ability to raise issues, but there is real concern that an organisation inside the Department of Health and Social Care will not provide that independence. Will the Minister commit to looking again at how that independence can be built in and…with the ability to pull the levers”? —[ Official Report , 1 June 2026; Vol. 786, c. 944.] We have also heard concerns from the Health and Social Care Committee. But the Member that the Minister may be most interested in is the right hon. Member for Makerfield (Andy Burnham).”
“They have lofty aims, and understandable and sometimes really good goals, but no understanding of how they are going to get there. It is not just the Opposition who are concerned; I will give some examples of Government Members who are, too. The hon. Member for Birmingham Erdington (Paulette Hamilton) said: “One of my biggest concerns about the Bill is the reduction in independent patient representation, including the abolition of Healthwatch structures.” —[ Official Report , 1 June 2026; Vol. 786, c. 921.] The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) said: “Replacing Healthwatch will mean that, ultimately, patients will not have confidence in the commissioners.” —[ Official Report , 9 June 2026; Vol. 787, c. 136.] The hon.”
“How much of that money will be redirected to the patient experience directorate and the ICBs? I tabled a written question about the benefits to the public purse of abolishing Healthwatch. The Minister’s response was as follows: “The potential savings from abolishing Healthwatch England and Local Healthwatch are dependent future policy decisions regarding the approach taken to collecting user experiences post-abolition.” She set out an intention for “future policy decisions”, but there was, and still is, an absence of a plan. That is something we have heard again and again in relation to health, in Committee and throughout the two years that this Government have been in power: the absence of a plan for how things will be achieved.”
“In its evidence, the Health Foundation wrote: “Moving the NHS functions of local HealthWatch organisations into newly enlarged ICB footprints could also result in the loss of a more nuanced local understanding of the public’s priorities and needs, with particular implications for seldom heard or more vulnerable communities.” We know that ICBs are under financial pressure because of decisions by the Labour Government; they have had to slash operating costs by 50%, and many are pencilling in cuts to frontline services. Against that backdrop, how can they afford to deliver patient voice functions? Ms Lewell, your guess is as good as mine. We have not heard about any additional funding from the Government for the purpose of patient voice. Healthwatch England was provided £3.3 million in 2025-26, and local healthwatch £14.1 million.”
“I appreciate that this strays slightly into the subject of the next group of provisions, Ms Lewell, but it is difficult to separate Healthwatch from local healthwatches. The Patients Association has warned: “Splitting local Healthwatch between ICBs and local authorities risks creating a patchwork of accountability with no single body responsible for ensuring patients are heard”. If responsibility to deliver those functions is shared between different parts of the health system, who becomes accountable if it is not funded? Who is accountable if people fall through the cracks? If accountability is divided, it often means that accountability is somewhat diminished. Members also need to ask whether it is financially feasible for ICBs to deliver patient voice.”
“I remind Members of what Councillor Dr Wendy Taylor of the Local Government Association said: “The current proposals to disband Healthwatch and allow health and social care services to gather and respond to feedback, rather than being challenged by an independent voice, risks organisations being seen to mark their own homework.” When Healthwatch conducts surveys, it often solicits information that proves problematic for the Government of the day. How can the public have confidence that the new directorate’s process will do the same? What will stop the Secretary of State deciding what questions get asked and what data gets published? From my reading of the Bill, the answer is nothing. The Government have made it clear that, alongside the new directorate, ICBs will take over several patient voice functions.”
“That is why the public and health experts are alarmed by the Government’s plans. As for HSSIB, the success of Healthwatch is due to its independence, but the Government want to do away with that. Their policy paper commits to replacing Healthwatch with a new patient experience directorate, which will sit inside the Minister’s Department. Instead of having organisations embedded in communities sitting on local health and wellbeing boards, the public will need to interface with the Minister’s Department. How can she guarantee the independence, and the perception of independence, of the new directorate? How can she be sure the public will trust it?”
“More than 925,000 people used their local healthwatch to get advice and information about their health and care. More than 329,000 people shared their experiences to help improve services. Healthwatch England helped to secure changes to Royal Mail so that NHS letters are delivered to patients on time. It also led new NHS guidance so that patients commencing cancer treatment have priority access to NHS dentists. A piece of Healthwatch research indicated that millions of eligible adults may be missing out on social care. Recently, my local branch, Healthwatch Lincolnshire, produced a report on the challenges facing carers nationally. Healthwatch has influenced the future of attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder care, encouraged the uptake of cervical cancer screening and so much more.”
“According to Healthwatch England’s May 2025 report, “nearly one in four…adults have noticed inaccuracies or missing details in their medical records”, such as inaccurate personal details and inaccurate records of medicines, diagnoses, treatments and conditions. I note that the Minister herself has relied on Healthwatch when bringing problems facing her constituents to the House. She said: “In a recent Adjournment debate about Bristol and the south-west, I raised the issue of a pregnant constituent who was unable to access care at that critical time. This is the No. 1 issue raised by Healthwatch. Patients are struggling.” —[ Official Report, 10 February 2022; Vol. 708, c. 484WH.] So Healthwatch is valuable. I invite Members to look at the impact that Healthwatch had in 2023-24.”
“In 2003, the community health councils became patient and public involvement forums, and five years later they became local involvement networks. The names and structures have changed, but the principle of patients having an independent voice remained. Healthwatch is the latest iteration. To be precise, Healthwatch England was established initially as a committee of the Care Quality Commission in 2013. It operates a hub-and-spoke model with more than 150 local healthwatches spread across local authority areas. Healthwatches play a vital role in exposing problems in the health service. Indeed, even the King’s Speech contained a reference to Healthwatch England.”
“That changed in 1974 with the establishment of community health councils, made up of volunteers. They carried out research, conducted visits to inspect standards and represented communities when changes were proposed. They also helped the public with information about local services, including how to make complaints—very similar processes. The Labour Government abolished community health councils in 2003, although a cursory trip to Hansard reveals that the Government repeatedly stated before the publication of the NHS plan that at that point they envisaged no immediate changes to community health councils, but they did go on to do that. That is reminiscent of what we are discussing today, because abolishing Healthwatch was not in the Labour party manifesto.”
“Members may be familiar with the term “nothing about us without us”—the idea that policies should not be decided and services should not be shaped without the participation of those who will use those services or be affected by the decisions that are made. As a medical practitioner, I believe that is an important principle. Patients must have a voice, because it is they who have the lived experience of their conditions and know their needs better than any civil servant in Whitehall. They know what is working and what needs to change. Let us look at the history of patient voice. In the two decades after the NHS’s inception, the provision of care was really quite paternalistic. Patients did not really have any role in shaping the services that they received.”
“Clause 64 abolishes Healthwatch England, which I believe is a mistake, and introduces schedule 9 to facilitate that. The impact assessment talks about the roles of local healthwatch and Healthwatch England, with local healthwatch obtaining views, making reports and recommendations, promoting and supporting public institutions, signposting to advice, and giving views to Healthwatch England nationally; and Healthwatch England then providing leadership, guidance and support to local healthwatch, escalation to the CQC, which we have heard a lot about already, and advice to the Secretary of State or NHS England.”
“Ultimately, if we have Healthwatch doing things now that are independent and respected across the House—I am sure your local healthwatch is also excellent, Ms Lewell; Lincolnshire’s certainly is—why not strengthen that voice? Why not say to those who are providing that service, “We’re going to give you more resources,” or “We’re going to ask you to deliver it in a slightly different way,” or “We’re going to ask you to focus on particular populations,” or even, “We’re going to invite you into the room with the ICBs so that they can hear you and listen carefully”? Why not compel those making the decisions and delivering the services to listen to Healthwatch, rather than replacing it? It was not Healthwatch’s job to listen to them, but to gather the information and present it, and that is what it has done.”
“At the moment, it is done in local authority areas. It will now become the job of the local authority and the ICB to commission feedback, but we have already heard how the 50% cuts to ICB budgets have led to ICBs merging into larger conglomerates. Those do not necessarily overlap with the strategic mayoral authorities in the way the Minister eventually wants. What geography does the Minister want the feedback to be gathered over? How does she see that working? Will it require further restructuring? The hon. Member for Lichfield talked about the importance of localism and how different areas of his constituency have different health needs. How does the Minister think that that will work under her new plans? The Minister said that one benefit of the new process is reaching vulnerable individuals, but what is to stop Healthwatch doing that?”
“My understanding is that it is the healthwatches’ job to gather the patient experience and present it to Healthwatch England and the decision makers. It is not their job, as I understand it, to make decisions on how care is delivered or to deliver that care differently. Does the Minister intend that to change? The Minister also talked about strengthening the impact of Healthwatch, but I do not understand how this change will do that. We have heard how its independence allows Healthwatch to go on telly, talk to Members of Parliament, Select Committees, radio stations and others, and publicise its findings. If it is within the Department, will it be able to do so as freely? I suggest that it will not. The other thing that I do not really understand—perhaps the Minister can help us with this—is the organisation.”
“As I understand it, the objectives of the Bill are to replace the local healthwatch with a less independent, internalised gatherer of patient experience feedback. The objectives appear to be featuring feedback more centrally in strategic decision making, getting people into the room and simplifying the patient landscape. There are things that I do not understand about that. If the problem is that those who commission or deliver the services are not listening adequately to the people who gather the patient experience information, why not invite the independent individual who has gathered that information into the room? Why ask someone in the room to gather the information and risk the independence? Why not compel more listening? The Minister talked about who is accountable for action.”
“Is there not a third issue: that the local authority and the ICB will no longer have congruent areas and will therefore look at different populations?”
“I then raised the issue of national insurance and that Minister was not aware of whether it was paid at that time. The civil service pay estimate was significantly lower than expected and lower than what was given. Therefore, six months later we were back in Committee with a different Minister asking for more money. There is a scrutiny issue with new clause 94. That also relates to the fees and terms in new clause 95, which was one of the examples I gave.”
“I would be grateful if the Minister clarified whether that could be nobody, or whether it has to at least be somebody. New clause 94 “changes the parliamentary procedure for certain regulations from the draft affirmative procedure to the negative procedure.” That relates to regulations about medicines and medical devices. I want to ask about scrutiny, because we have had a number of statutory instruments over the last few years that, under the new regulations, would now be put under the negative procedure. When we have looked at them, there have been questions and potential changes. Why does the Minister want a lower level of scrutiny? In general, scrutiny is a good thing. I understand that this could smooth out procedure and make it a bit quicker in some cases, but we had an example where a Minister brought forward fee increases.”
“New clause 91 would amend the Medicines and Medical Devices Act to enable regulations “to refer to both international agreements and standards and standards developed in the United Kingdom” and enable the Secretary of State “to dispense with requirements placed on devices which meet regulatory requirements applicable outside the United Kingdom.” New clause 92 would amend the definition of “mutual recognition agreement” so that “agreements are defined by a list published by the Secretary of State, rather than a Schedule to the regulations.” New clause 93 “amends the duty to consult in relation to regulations about human medicines and medical devices.” That means that instead of a public consultation, it “gives the option of consulting such persons as the relevant authority considers appropriate”.”
“I am interested to understand how the Government are going to convert the good intentions I am sure they have into action. In particular, their manifesto promised that thousands more additional midwives would be trained. I would be interested to know what progress they have made on that.”
“My understanding is that the Government are going to produce a plan on how to deliver the recommendations in the recent report, and that is going to be available by Christmas. However, that means that we will then be in a situation where the Government came into power in mid-2024 and then spent a year writing a plan—the 10-year “Fit for the Future” plan. Around the time that they published that, they decided that they needed an urgent maternity report; that was going to take a few months, but it ended up taking another year in of itself. Now we are going to take another six or seven months writing another plan on how to implement the plan we have written, based on the plan we wrote before, based on the plan we did not have at the general election.”
“We have all been shocked by the many reports we have read, the circumstances we have heard about, the tragedies that have occurred over many years and the challenges that are faced by maternity care. I am not sure that writing more reports is going to help; I think we need more action rather than words. The hon. Lady mentioned the taskforce. I was disappointed that it took the Government so many months to establish it, that it took so long for it to meet and that it has met only a few times. As we have talked about things such as Healthwatch and the HSSIB, the Minister has shown her enthusiasm to get on with things and ensure that the recommendations made in the varying reports are implemented. I would therefore be interested to understand how that will occur in maternity.”
“As the hon. Lady said, new clause 1 seems somewhat redundant, because the Government appear to have decided to appoint a maternity commissioner. New clause 13 asks for a report. Before I go any further, I should say that I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and have attended the delivery of many babies as a paediatrician at different levels of seniority. I should also say that I am a member of the British Medical Association, that I continue to work as an NHS consultant paediatrician and that I worked at Nottingham University hospitals NHS trust in late 2012, early 2013. I have great sympathy with the reasoning behind what the hon. Member for North Shropshire is proposing.”
“We talked about clause 1—on the abolition of NHS England—at the beginning of the Bill. The Minister was keen at that time to take unelected individuals out of the picture and create accountability by returning things to democratic control through the abolition of NHS England and putting them back in the Secretary of State’s hands. However, this proposal essentially does the reverse with maternity care, taking it out of the hands of Ministers and the Secretary of State and putting it into the hands of a commissioner. Could the Minister explain that?”
“The NHS contracts IT functions to firms based in other countries when the business case is strong. It uses Microsoft, an American company that offers software, cloud services and Outlook for emails; Oracle for standardising and automating financial processes; Sectra, a Swedish company, for transferring medical images and reports; and Dedalus, an Italian company, for migrating services to the cloud. To echo the point made by the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, should the NHS prioritise a British company over an international company if the service has better functionality and a lower cost and is safe? The hon. Member for Winchester spoke about the vibrant life sciences and tech sector in this country, but if we close off our markets to those from overseas, will others not do the same?”
“It would be cumbersome and completely unnecessary to include all of those. Even with the tech companies themselves, there is a risk for small contracts for small pieces of tech to create a huge amount of bureaucracy. I am not sure that it would specifically improve data quality or data protection. It is reasonable that the Minister would consider risk assessments, and I hope that she would automatically consider them before contracts that are particularly sensitive or contain patient data, but I am not sure that the new clause works. Moving on to new clauses 4 and 5, the hon. Member talked about Palantir. It may even have been his intention for these new clauses to target one specific American firm, but the actual impact would erect costly barriers to trade.”
“New clause 3 says: “Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must conduct and lay before Parliament a risk assessment of all contracts between NHS organisations and suppliers based outside of the UK.” That is “all contracts”. In subsection (2), it says that the Secretary of State must “pay particular regard” to contracts with technology companies, but not only to those. I am being a bit pedantic here, but has the hon. Member for Winchester considered the wording of “all contracts”? The NHS does not just provide drugs and medical technology; it provides bedding, blankets, pillows, bananas for people to eat at lunchtime, bedpans and loo roll. There is a whole range of things procured as supplies by the NHS that may or may not be procured from overseas.”
“I rise to discuss new clauses 3 to 5 and 43, which I am sure that the Whips will not let me forget. I understand the sentiment behind the Liberal Democrat new clauses. The hon. Member for Winchester is keen to ensure that uses of NHS data are limited to uses for which people can consent, uses in relation to their care or specifically approved research. Having heard examples of this data being tracked or leaked by accident, the hon. Gentleman is keen to ensure that that does not happen. He is particularly concerned about the risk of that happening in another jurisdiction where we have less control of the system. I am not sure that the new clauses have been properly thought through, however.”
“We often do freedom of information requests about, for example, surgical procedures, but one in 10 procedures are performed in private settings and are not subject to FOI, which means that less data is available to the public. Data from private independent providers is less transparent than that of standard NHS provision. This is a probing amendment to find out the Minister’s thoughts about how to ensure people can access transparent data on operations performed in local independent hospitals, particularly as the Government have signalled their intention towards more and more of those being provided.”
“I think it is about balance. I agree that we need to ensure that the data is kept safely. Using British technology where we can is a good thing, but we have to be reasonable about it. For example, there are alternatives to Microsoft Outlook, but how much more would that cost the NHS and how much would it affect patient care? There is a balance to be struck. I understand what the hon. Gentleman is trying to do in protecting our data. That is an extremely important issue, and I am sure the Minister will tell us about the work she is doing to ensure our data is kept safe. New clause 43, in my name, is about private providers’ data.”
“The balance of need may change over time, and if it does, then legislating for a set proportion to go on this or that type of care, rather than on delivering this or that type of outcome, might not be the right approach.”
“Is measuring inputs rather than outputs really the right way to run the health service? We have tested almost to destruction the idea of just giving more and more money, which I suppose is why the Government have introduced this Bill: to try to reform things and make them more efficient. We can argue about whether they are doing that well or not, but that is the thrust of what they are trying to do. I think the idea behind the amendments is interesting, but I would be interested to hear more about how the hon. Member thinks the standard would work, and in particular whether he thinks it could be justified if there was huge unmet demand in the secondary care or mental health sector.”
“The amendments would introduce a primary care investment standard, requiring the ICBs to increase spending on primary care services at least in line with the growth of the total funding that they receive. The Secretary of State would be able to implement financial penalties if ICBs failed to comply. As the hon. Member for Winchester said, we do not need to talk about the importance of primary care, because we all know it is very important and quite efficient. The Darzi report said that primary care is one of the most financially efficient parts of the NHS. The challenge is that demand is increasing across the whole system, and unless overall funding is increased, then giving primary care a bigger share must mean giving somebody else a smaller one. My other concern is about how the hon. Gentleman thinks this will be measured.”
“I do not sit on the same side of the House as the Secretary of State, but I think he is interested in mental health and wants to do his best job. Does the hon. Member for Winchester think that is not the case? What does he think the new clause would achieve in practice?”
“New clause 34 would create a duty for the Secretary of State and any relevant body or authority carrying out functions under this Act or the Mental Health Act 2025 to “promote mental health wellbeing among the people of England.” That is a statement of his job, and a statement of the obvious; if the Minister is responsible for the mental health services of the country, of course he has a duty to make sure that they do their jobs properly. It is a nice amendment—it is one of those things that it is politically difficult to vote against—but I would ask the hon. Member for Winchester what practical effect he thinks it would have on mental health. Does he think the Secretary of State is not thinking about mental health?”
“Of course, those individuals also face transport costs, as we discussed in a previous sitting. I note for the record that I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and the British Medical Association, and an NHS consultant paediatrician. Last week, the Children’s Commissioner published a report that found that 60,000 children were waiting for more than two years for support; the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health has also sounded the alarm about the number of children attending A&E because of mental health service issues. In that sort of the situation, the Government might want to move money from A&E services to mental health support to prevent A&E admissions. They may also need to do the reverse, in order to treat those A&E admissions in the first place. Flexibility is required.”