Gareth Snell
MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“My hon. Friend is touching on something really important, because the other part of the issue is the length of time that people have to sit in front of a screen in order to get to the front of the queue.”
“The Minister says that there will be a review within six months, but can she be clearer to give us certainty? Will it start within six months or will it have concluded within six months? If it starts within six months, how long does she anticipate it will take?”
“I would like to declare an interest as the vice-chair of the Unison group of MPs. The Minister rightly says that it is a false choice between good employment relations or growing the economy.”
“The Minister has not touched on the cap on fines for big companies. Does she think that is sufficient? Amazon’s turnover this year was £30 billion—that is 30,000 million. The maximum fine that it could get in a calendar year is half a million pounds—one sixty-thousandth of its turnover.”
“When the Labour party went through a terrible time with our own antisemitism crisis, the hon. Gentleman was a staunch friend of the Jewish members of my party, and I know that many of them remember him fondly for that.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on making a wonderful speech. He will know, because he is from Leeds, that one of the people spending most of their time propagating that sort of virulent antisemitism is the deputy leader of the Green party in Leeds, who once posted a list of British people—some Jewish—saying “bought and sold by Israel”, pur…”
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“Finally, because I know Members will want to go and watch association football—I believe that is what is on right now — there is also an issue for small innovative packaging firms that are looking at new material. I know that the Minister is scheduled to meet, or may have already met, an organisation from Staffordshire called WoolCool. They are using wool as a packaging product, and it is entirely reusable. People can use it in their garden, and the birds can take it away to make nests and so on. It can be used for all sorts of lovely things, even as a thermal insulator. It is completely reusable. However, the company is so small that it was rated “red” until recently, which means that no one really knows what is going on with the costings arrangements.”
“If I go online and buy a product from the European Union—something of appreciable aesthetics but of a much lower quality—and it is brought into the UK, there is a price differential, because of the cost of the packaging that it is shipped in. It becomes a disincentive for the UK purchaser to buy a British product. If companies are shipping certain products, such as ceramics or glass, they need to be absolutely certain that the packaging is sufficiently robust, due to the fragility of the product being shipped. There are not that many alternatives. I know that some in the sector have looked at cardboard, but cardboard is a move away from polystyrene, and polystyrene is cheaper by weight, so they stick with the product that is actually more damaging to the environment.”
“The high cost of looking at using the newer systems, particularly those that are too small for registration, such as biodegradable or organic films, means that there is an incentive to stick with the plastic manufacturing, which is a challenge. I also wanted to touch briefly on the ceramics industry—of course, no debate in this place is complete without mention of ceramics. I say that in jest, but one of the things that the ceramics sector is dependent on, particularly the giftware sector, is people buying a product that is often shipped around the country. Most of those organisations will have a turnover that means that their products and packaging are registerable under the scheme.”
“I must first declare an interest as the vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on packaging in the circular economy, which is chaired excellently by my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Chris Bloore). I think it is quite clear that this is a good policy and a good system but that it has had some unintended consequences. We are trying to iron them out for the benefit of all. In my constituency I have one of Premier Foods’ Mr Kipling factories. It has done a considerable amount of work on reformulating its plastic from red trays so that it can be recycled. It has also looked at how it can use cardboard better. It has looked at the use of its plastic film, which is really important for the freshness of its products, but that is obviously a product that it is trying to phase out.”
“I will be brief, because I know something else is happening this evening that others want to engage in. I am not entirely sure what that is, but apparently it is quite popular. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) on securing this debate. I know about the glass industry and she has rehearsed some of the arguments in particular for producers of beer. I have had similar correspondence from various agencies about the perversity of a weight-based system that precludes the use of a product that is infinitely usable and moves manufacturers towards plastic and thinner aluminium products because it is cheaper. I am sure the Minister will comment on that. I want to talk about two things.”
“I genuinely thank the Minister for being generous with her time. On the idea of a post-implementation review, is there a way of looking at the time that businesses have to spend interacting with the scheme? The Titanic brewery in Stoke-on-Trent—very good beer, by the way—has told me that it took three weeks of one employee’s time to complete the assessment for the first year’s fees. I am sure that that is not by design, but in the review, will the Department look at how to make interaction with the scheme easier for small businesses that do not have much capacity?”
“The Minister mentioned the super-charger scheme and the impact for glass manufacturers. I know the super-charger scheme is not her Department, but it is only for frontier industries. Can she say whether or not glass bottle manufacturers that go into the hospitality sector benefit from that? My understanding was that they do not because they are not considered one of the glass fibres or the industrial glass needed for the frontier industries.”
“Finally, I would like to push the Minister on public toilets, which we have not touched on. One of the challenges with town centres and high streets is the closure over many years—predominantly under the Conservative Government, I hasten to add—of public loos. That means there is a “loo leash” for many people who cannot find public conveniences, so they feel that they cannot go out shopping. Will the Minister look at putting a duty on local authorities to provide public loos? That would be a small, but important, step towards making our high streets accessible again.”
“It has been told that because there is a post office just under a mile away in three locations, the town has sufficient access to cash facilities. It does not. I hope the Minister will work with the Treasury to change the criteria so that it looks at the impact on towns rather than using as-the-crow-flies distances, because that simply does not work. The second point is travel links. Buses are incredibly important for ensuring that people can get to town centres and use their high streets, and so are trains. I am disappointed that Stoke city council abandoned the plan for the accessibility works at Longton train station; as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Dr Gardner) knows, that would have made access into that town much easier and allowed us to bring people to the south of the city using public transport.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman for Bromsgrove (Bradley Thomas) on securing this debate. When he was talking about the enforcement of gaudy signs and the impact they have on communities, I could not help thinking about the old bank in Fenton: it has gone from being a glorious listed building in a conservation zone to being smeared with bright signs advertising all sorts of products—yet trade in there is surprisingly slow for somewhere that opens so often, so I fully endorse what he said about enforcement. In the brief time I have, I want to press the Minister on three points. One is access to cash. Stoke town is one of the four towns I have the pleasure of representing and it does not have a bank.”
“The other point that I want to raise—this is the small part of the hon. Member’s speech that I agree with—is that those places also tend to have people who are in indentured work or modern slavery, so there is a human impact as well as an economic one.”
“As part of that densification process, I encourage the Minister to look at living accommodation in town centres and on our high streets. There are examples in Hanley, in Stoke-on-Trent, where new apartment blocks have driven footfall into the town centre while providing accommodation that meets the demands of local people. That model has worked incredibly well, and I hope the Government will consider it as part of the high street strategy.”
“I welcome the Minister’s comment that no Jewish person should have to change what they wear or how they go about their life, but she will know that this is exactly what is happening in this country, not least because antisemitism is perpetrated online by vile hate-mongers who seem to think that attacking Jewish people is fair game. What action is the Minister taking to ensure that those people online who pump out antisemitism and anti-Jewish hatred are brought to book very quickly?”
“I saw British citizens who were scared—scared because of the pervasive narrative that has been allowed in this country that because Israel is a Jewish state, Jewish people are rightful targets for attack and scrutiny disproportionate to the impact that they have on society. Although I welcome any debates that allow us genuinely to scrutinise the impact that foreign Governments have on this country, the fact that we are yet again spending all our time talking about just one—the only Jewish state—says more about the petitioner than about the people here to debate it.”
“The only difference is that the British citizens offering those donations are Jewish. Unfortunately, that is where debates such as this one lead to in society. When someone expresses a pro-Israel position, one starts to ask, “Why do you think that? Are you Jewish? What is your opinion on Israel?” before a conversation with them about anything else can start. It drives debate to a place where we are sceptical of people who are Jewish, because they might have some tenuous link to a country far away. What does that do? That stops Jewish people wanting to participate in any form of public life. I know that to be true, because other Jewish people tell me that, and I have seen it in conversations around my dinner table. I was in a synagogue in Manchester on the day that the Heaton Park synagogue was attacked.”
“She had the audacity in a previous life to stand for election and get elected, and she was a much better MP than I ever will be. [Hon. Members: “Hear, Hear.”] [ Laughter. ] To fund that election campaign, my wife took a donation from a British citizen who happened to be Jewish. What happened? Her name appeared on a list propagated by the Green party’s deputy leader, Mothin Ali—it continues to be propagated to this day, by the way—which talks about politicians being “bought and sold for Israel.” My wife was not alone on that list. There are also members of the current Cabinet, members of the shadow Cabinet and Members of the House of Lords—individuals whose only contribution has been to try to make a difference in society. They are British citizens being funded by British citizens.”
“Thank you for calling me to speak, Mrs Harris. I congratulate the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) on his opening speech. As my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with engaging in deep scrutiny of the things that may or may not influence our politics, but it should not just be focused on Israel. China, Iran, Russia and Belarus are all bad-faith actors that seek to change the way we do things in this country, yet there often seems to be very little attention given to them. That worries me, for two reasons. For those who do not know, my wife is Jewish. I am not “declaring” that, because it is not something that I need to declare, but it is relevant for the purpose of this conversation. She is a British Jew, a British citizen.”
“The hon. Gentleman made a big claim about “pro-Israel donors”; could he clarify what he actually meant by that? Does he have a particular definition about what that actually means—who those donors were and the purpose for which he believes that money was given?”
“I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests: I am a governor at two educational institutions, and I chair the all-party parliamentary group on sixth form education. My question is on access to the apprenticeship register, because in Stoke-on-Trent, great companies such as the Spark Group are struggling to get the registration they want in order to grow their offer to young people. They are limited by the £100,000 de minimis for subcontracting, but they have young people who want to take on the apprenticeships they are offering. Will the Minister set out what this Government might do to change that, and will he agree to meet me and the Spark Group so that we can look at ways it can give young people the opportunities they want?”
“The Minister will be aware that the sanctioned oil and gas that is sold by Russia to Turkey and China is often used by companies in those countries to manufacture products, including ceramics. Those products are then dumped into the UK, distorting our domestic manufacturing base. That is a secondary impact of the profits coming from that sanctioned material. What evidence is the Department sharing with the Department for Business and Trade so that it can put in place the trade remedies necessary to protect our domestic manufacturing from the impacts of this illegal trading?”
“I just want to add to that list the 19,000 members of the National Society of Pottery Workers, which now forms part of the GMB, who, even when the strike ended, still found their jobs at risk because the supply of coal was not available to power the kilns. The local community came together at the time to form solidarity and support committees to ensure that the workers’ families were fed while alternative sources of coal were being found. I think the Minister would agree that that is a testament to the strength and power of the solidarity of the labour movement when it comes to supporting not just the workers but the families of those workers as well.”
“Today’s announcement will absolutely help us survive, but with more working together, we can thrive as a sector and do our bit to boost exports, boost growth and create well-paid, unionised jobs in this country.”
“I declare an interest as chair of the all-party group on ceramics. I thank the Chancellor for today’s announcement, and the Secretary of State for Business and Trade and the Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade, my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Chris McDonald) for their support. This is a big step towards support for a sector that offers so much to this country. I thank Sharon Yates and Finbar Bowie from the GMB, as well as Rob Flello and Hannah Ault from Ceramics UK, for their leadership in this matter. May I extract from the Chancellor a commitment that this is the next stage of a new partnership between the UK Government and UK ceramics?”
“As someone who was a parish councillor in a previous life and now represents a seat that has no parish level of governance whatsoever, I wonder whether the Minister sees a role for arbitration over where there is conflict between what that local mechanism might look like—for instance, where a residents association encroaches on another set of streets that might be considered another part of a residents association. Where do the Government see their role in facilitating resolution so that those powerful local bodies can exist in a way that is representative, fair and equal?”
“In Stoke-on-Trent, we are outside a mayoral combined authority, but have oodles of old industrial brownfield. We are itching to get our hands on it, but we do not have those compulsory purchase powers that sit with Homes England. Once the strategic combined authorities are up and running, how soon will we be able to use those powers to purchase that land, so that we can build the houses that the Minister talks about?”
“I will be brief. I completely understand the principle that the Minister is outlining of not wanting to force areas to have something that they do not want. She talks about consent, but what does that actually look like? In some areas, the board will have one or two intransigent members who will not allow progress—they could hold up a majority view that is in favour of a combined authority. What is the Government’s role, if they are removing their ability to tell parts of the community that they do not have the right to hold up something that a majority of local component units want?”
“I want to be clear in my own mind. Opposition Members seem to think that they have extracted from the Government a commitment that social media for under-16s will be banned as a result of the amendment. The wording does not say that— [Interruption.] Let me finish— [Interruption.] Honestly, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am asking a question to the Minister, not the Opposition. Can she clarify that point, so that what I have heard from the Opposition is confirmed by the Government?”
“Just nine days before Mr Churchill invited Ernie Bevin to become the Minister for Labour in his Government, Mr Bevin was stood in Hanley town hall in my constituency giving a public rally address on the importance of the working class towards the war effort, and it is believed that the coverage of that speech in The Times two days later is what caught Churchill’s eye and encouraged Mr Churchill to invite him into his Government, which is a testimony to the power of oratory that sometimes we miss in today’s debates—although obviously not this one—and also that, wherever we look, there is a Stoke-on-Trent connection to most parts of our social history.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Leigh Ingham), my Staffordshire neighbour, on securing this urgent question. The Government are taking the right steps towards this procurement strategy, but there is a lot more that could be done if they wanted to truly buy British, back British and build British. That could start with the Government Car Service. The Minister will know from the answers that he has sent to my written parliamentary questions that one third of the Government Car Service uses foreign cars, and that police services in this country use foreign-made cars. He will know that we import bricks to build houses that are paid for by Homes England, which is funded by taxpayers. Will he look at the easy wins that he can make by looking at how the Government are a consumer of products?”
“What action is being taken across Government, not to deal with the instances after the event, but to tackle the root cause—that scourge of virulent racism—that is being normalised by too many people who ought to know better?”
“To follow the point of the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith), too many aspects of antisemitism are being normalised in this country. That does not start with attacks on places of worship or on clearly Jewish buildings; it starts with the words and actions of individuals who seek to demonise Jewish people in day-to-day language. It starts with the deputy leader of the Green party publishing a list of British Jews and calling them part of the Israeli lobby, or putting out a list of British-Jewish donors and saying they are part of the Israeli lobby. It starts with the soft approach of demonising a small group of people because of their faith, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (David Taylor) said.”
“On 28 April, it will be Staffordshire Day across the Houses of Parliament. There will be a marketplace in the Jubilee Room from 12 pm till 2 pm, and there will be Staffordshire oatcakes in the Tea Room for breakfast. Could I, through a question to the Leader of the House, invite the whole House to come and sample some of the delicacies of what I think is the greatest county—after Lancashire, of course, Mr Speaker—in the country? On a serious note, would he consider holding a debate in Government time on the importance of county identities? Given local government reorganisation, county identities are important, as is how we bolster them as we look to the future with our new councils.”
“Bluntly and directly, may I ask the Secretary of State how many job losses and factory closures it will take, and how many brick kilns need to be mothballed, before the Government step in and do something for the ceramics sector? Is it now the Government’s policy objective to oversee the end of UK ceramics production?”
“The same applies for sanitaryware. This sector has seen exports of half a billion pounds, employs 20,000 people directly across the supply chain, and puts £1 billion back into the UK economy. We have spoken to the Chancellor, to the Secretary of State’s predecessor, to the Energy Secretary, to Ministers across all Departments, and to the Treasury. They promised us help in the Budget, in the industrial strategy, in another Budget, and in the autumn statement. Then we were told, “Wait for BICS.” I suspect that the line from the Secretary of State will be, “The sector is gas-intensive, so wait for the supercharger scheme.” Frankly, that is not good enough. Factories will close and jobs will be lost as a result of this announcement.”
“Let us start with the positives. I am glad that there is now some form of recognition that there is an industrial energy crisis, and that the Secretary of State has brought forward something that helps some sectors. The bad news for the sector that I and many colleagues in the Chamber represent is that the ceramics sector is not included. There is nothing for tableware or giftware, nothing for ceramic tiles, clay pipes or clay tiles, and nothing for bricks. We have a Government with an objective of building 1.5 million homes, but there is no support for bricks in the scheme, which means that we will have to import bricks from Pakistan, on diesel-chugging super-tankers—bricks made by indentured labour in coal-fired kilns. We will not make them in Walsall, north Staffordshire or your constituency, Madam Deputy Speaker.”
“Following today’s extension to the powers under the Energy Prices Act, the Government will have the power to meet the demands being made of them by various sectors—not just ceramics but glass, steel, bricks, cement, lime, paper; all the things that we need—to make an intervention as soon as the SI is passed. The Minister could go back to his Department and say, “We have the power, the political will and an interest in doing so; therefore we are going to make regulations.” He could say to the 4,500 businesses that are not covered by the industry supercharger scheme, “Here is a mechanism by which we can simply put you in that scheme.””
“Will he use the powers that are extended under this SI to reduce the amount that would be otherwise charged for the GB non-domestic gas supply by licensed gas suppliers? The Minister could, if he wanted to, under section 13(3)(a), give financial assistance to non-domestic users of energy, whether it be gas or electricity, using powers that are in the Act that are being extended by today’s SI. Under section 13(2), “The Secretary of State may take such other steps as the Secretary of State considers appropriate in response to the energy crisis.” I think it is quite clear that we are in an energy crisis. We are facing enormously high energy costs, not just in our own homes but in the factories that employ thousands of people across this country in highly skilled, proud, working-class communities.”
“I am sure the Minister will also reach into his big bag of tricks to talk about the British industrial competitiveness scheme, the consultation for which has only just gone out. That scheme was promised in last year’s Budget and will almost certainly not be in place until late 2027. The Minister wants to extend the powers under the Energy Prices Act using today’s statutory instrument, and I think that is a good thing, but I would ask him to do three things. The first is to think about what other parts of the Act he will use when he has extended those powers. When he has extended the powers of the Secretary of State until the end of this year, will he use the powers under section 9(1) by regulation to reduce charges for non-domestic energy supply?”
“Gas-intensive manufacturers are today paying roughly—including other costs that are part of the measures the Minister mentioned—three times what they were paying. We cannot make glass, bricks, cement, paper, steel or—crucially for me—ceramics without a credible and affordable supply of industrial gas. There are also challenges with electricity pricing. I am sure that the Minister will respond to what I am saying by talking about the supercharger scheme, and will note the excellent extension of the scheme from a 60% reduction to a 90% reduction, but that covers only 500 of the most energy-intensive industries in the country; 5,000 others could be included, but unfortunately are not, so while we are seeing an increase in support for some of the industry, it is very narrow and does not support most of the manufacturing in this country.”
“The Minister will know that section 9 of the Energy Prices Act allows for the reduction of energy charges for non-domestic customers in Great Britain. That is industrial energy which keeps the lights on in factories, and allows us to make things, build things and do things. It is the life source of British manufacturing. The Minister will also be acutely aware that too many businesses in this country, especially those in foundational sectors, are unable currently to meet the cost of their gas and electricity because of the price of industrial energy. For reference, two weeks ago the price of gas was 140p per therm. It is currently trading at between 113p and 115p per therm. To put that into context, in 2020, before the various shocks and energy crises, it was 47p per therm.”
“That is a nice introduction, Ms Vaz, and it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I have no issue in principle with the regulations, which extend the powers of the Secretary of State. The issue I want to raise, given this opportunity, is the other aspects of the Energy Price Act 2022 on industrial energy, which are also extended by virtue of extending the timescale for the legislation. The Minister will know that I have been persistent in trying to seek a meeting with him, which I have not been able to secure. On the last attempt we were told that his diary was too busy for a meeting. I thought, therefore, that I would come along and detain the Committee for 20 minutes this morning for a meeting that we could have had privately in the Department. I apologise to other members of the Committee.”
“Given the powers that are being granted to the Secretary of State under this SI, companies around the country could be given help and support. I therefore ask the Minister, once he has granted the Secretary of State additional powers through the SI before us, will he go back to his Department and come up with a scheme, a plan and a package of support for those non-domestic users of gas and electricity that are not covered by the industry supercharger scheme that will come into place well before the British industrial competitiveness scheme is floated, and allow some breathing space for those manufacturers who, frankly, are the lifeblood of the economy in so many constituencies and who, in places like Stoke-on-Trent, employ thousands of people?”
“It is within the powers that are being extended by today’s SI. The Minister rightly talks about the SI’s impact on the power of the Secretary of State to vary domestic bills, but the Act is quite comprehensive. What is being extended today by the SI is a suite of powers that are available to the Secretary of State to undertake significant market intervention on a range of fronts in the next six months—it is covered by the SI that is before us—to make life easier for businesses, manufacturers and heavy industries in my constituency and, I would wager, in yours, Ms Vaz. I know you have brick manufacturers who face the same industrial energy crisis— [ Interruption. ] As does the shadow Minister in his constituency.”
“Following the events of August 2024, when there were riots in Stoke-on-Trent, has she given any thought to whether any recommendations for where new funding should go to help deal with some of these issues should take account of the places where there was rioting at that time—particularly places, such as Stoke-on-Trent, that do not currently qualify for Prevent priority funding?”
“As the Home Secretary will be aware, there are 28 Prevent priority areas across the country—there used to be 40, and Stoke-on-Trent was one of them until 2023, when the last Government changed the criteria. She will also know that for an area to become a Prevent priority area, the local authority normally has to demonstrate that it is a hotspot for either right-wing extremism or Islamist activity—or, in the chequered past of my own city, both. If Jonathan Hall’s legislative suggestions come into force and there is a new offence of non-ideologically based fixation with violence, how does the Home Secretary see that playing into the Prevent priority areas, given that the locality will be much more difficult to consider?”
“I accept the Minister’s point about having more home-grown energy, and renewables can be good for insulating ourselves from economic shocks, but he will know that great swathes of our industrial base are gas dependent, not least the ceramics industry. What message does he send to them? The current price per therm is twice what it was three weeks ago. Those business are renewing their contracts. This is going to kill industry in certain parts of our foundational sector that we need to meet our mission, so what is the Government’s message to those industries?”
“So many parts of the economic powerhouse that is the United Kingdom are dependent on gas, and while I agree with my Labour colleagues that we should move at pace to transition to electricity where that is possible, there are sectors in this country where that transition simply is not possible.”
“The thing that I find difficult to stomach is when we talk about energy in the round, as if there is only one type of energy and everything will eventually run off it. Energy is a diverse group of ways of powering things. It can be electrical or nuclear, but in most of our foundational industries, it is gas. We acknowledge that gas will be here for a very long time—we will have to use it to power the kilns that make the bricks to build the houses we want to build. We will need gas to power the furnaces in the foundries that make the metal and steel for our defence development and manufacturing. If we want to make paper, glass, cement or lime in this country, we need gas.”
“I will start with the things that we all agree on. I think that across the House, we all acknowledge that the international energy prices we face in this country are too high. As the Minister is on record as saying, there is a rollercoaster effect when it comes to the price of gas. Today, it is 149p per therm; it was 120p per therm in February 2025, and it was 38p per therm in February 2021. We have to acknowledge the fact that oil and gas prices are going up around the world, particularly gas prices, and the impact can be felt not just in the jobs that the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross) rightly spoke about, but in jobs in those industries that are gas-dependent.”
“When we talk about the transition towards net zero and more electrical generation, what are we going to say to the places that cannot do it? When we say, “It’s all going to be done through renewable energy”, what message do we send to workers in Stoke-on-Trent and in Denby in Derbyshire whose sector simply cannot transition away from gas? I want there to be more renewable energy. I want that technology to exist, but it is not there yet, and every time we forget that, we are talking about writing off jobs and livelihoods in the places that need them most.”