Gareth Bacon
MP for Orpington · Conservative · United Kingdom
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond, and to take part in this debate about the impact of changes to the national planning policy framework. At the outset, I thank the hon. Member for Wells and Mendip Hills (Tessa Munt) for securing this important debate.”
“Furthermore, it has shown that England’s brownfield sites are increasing in number, land area and minimum net dwellings—up 54%, 6% and 34% respectively between 2018 and 2024.”
“A future Conservative Government will employ a genuine brownfield-first approach rather than releasing swathes of green belt or relabelling it under the murky and disingenuous designation of “grey belt”. We will not just pay lip service to brownfield development, but prioritise it and make it easier. That can and will be done.”
“The Prime Minister has told us that it means low-quality land made up of “disused car parks”, but that is far from the truth, because, for too many sites, grey belt is simply a façade for releasing green-belt sites for urban sprawl and overdevelopment.”
“As I pointed out in this place yesterday, the Government’s own figures show that the number of net new additional dwellings in England was just 208,600 in Labour’s first year in power—a 6% drop from 2023-24 under the last Conservative Government’s final year in office.”
“It covers everything from roads to housing, local communities to land use, and provides the overarching checks, balances and direction in the planning system. We are not in blanket opposition to everything that the Government are seeking to do with the NPPF.”
The complete record
Every one of 600 lines we hold for Gareth Bacon, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 10 of 12.
“It is used consistently across the existing recognition and enforcement regime in the UK. Once the judgment is successfully registered, it will be treated as a judgment made by that court. Secondly, the draft regulations will give either party the right, once a UK court has decided whether to register a judgment under the 2019 Hague convention, to apply to have that decision set aside if they do not agree with it. This provides an opportunity for either party to ask the court to reassess its decision in the light of any additional information. This is a form of recourse similar to an appeal. The setting aside route is well established for recognition and enforcement decisions, where the court will examine only a limited amount of information at the registration stage.”
“First, the draft regulations will create a registration requirement so that anyone seeking to recognise and enforce a foreign judgment in the UK under the convention has to apply to a UK court to register the judgment first. The applicant will be required to set out initial evidence that their judgment is eligible for recognition and enforcement under the convention. That will create a form of safeguard that enables the court briefly to assess whether the grounds for recognition and enforcement under the convention have been met, rather than its being automatic. However, it is designed to be as light-touch as possible; it is not akin to new proceedings. This is a well-understood, proven model with which legal practitioners and UK courts are already familiar.”
“Joining the 2019 Hague convention will provide greater clarity and confidence for businesses and individuals in disputes, will reduce costs, will encourage international trade and will enhance access to justice. It will also provide greater predictability as to whether a UK judgment can be enforced abroad. This will encourage businesses to choose the UK’s world-beating courts for their international litigation, further increasing the attractiveness of the UK for international dispute resolution. I turn to the detail of the draft regulations, which make implementing provisions for how the convention will operate in the UK. These comprise three key elements.”
“I turn to the content and aims of the draft regulations, which will implement the 2019 Hague convention in UK law and facilitate the operation of the convention once it enters into force. The purpose of the convention is to establish a set of rules about whether a civil or commercial judgment made in the court of one country may be recognised and enforced in another. Without a uniform scheme, each country’s own domestic rules determine whether a judgment from another country will be recognised and enforced there. Those rules vary from country to country, which can give rise to uncertainty and a range of challenges for effective cross-border enforcement. The convention addresses many of those challenges by providing a uniform set of rules that all parties to the convention agree to apply with each other.”
“The UK Government are now preparing to ratify the convention to bring it into force between the UK and the existing parties, which will be the European Union, Ukraine, Uruguay and all European Union member states apart from Denmark. This legislation is instrumental to the UK joining the convention and needs to be in place prior to ratification to ensure that the UK can meet its obligations under the convention. The convention will come into force for the UK just over a year after ratification. The Government aim to complete ratification as soon as possible this summer, which will allow the UK to start applying the 2019 Hague convention with the other parties a year later. The UK stands to be an early adopter of the convention, as a leader in the field of private international law.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Recognition and Enforcement of Judgments (2019 Hague Convention etc.) Regulations 2024. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. The draft regulations form part of the implementing framework for the 2019 Hague convention on the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil or commercial matters. They will amend the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982 to incorporate the convention into domestic UK law. Following unanimous support in response to a Government consultation, the UK signed the 2019 Hague convention on 12 January this year. It was laid before Parliament on 25 March for treaty scrutiny, which was completed last week without objection.”
“The draft regulations are an important step in implementing the 2019 convention. They will strengthen the framework for the international recognition and enforcement of judgments, giving UK businesses and citizens greater clarity, certainty and confidence as they work, live and operate across international borders. I hope that the Committee will join me in supporting them.”
“This is an agreement stating that a dispute between parties will be determined exclusively by a specified court or by the courts of a specified country. To ensure consistency with the UK’s recognition and enforcement regime and to avoid confusion for users, the draft regulations will make some amendments to the implementing provisions for the 2005 Hague convention, to bring them into line with the approach taken for the 2019 Hague convention. This includes amending the recourse route from a right of appeal to the application to set aside that I have described, as well as excluding the 2005 Hague convention from the same provisions in the 1982 Act from which we are excluding the 2019 convention: those that provide for the recognition and enforcement of judgments between the UK’s jurisdictions.”
“This is to ensure that courts in each jurisdiction— Scotland, Northern Ireland and England and Wales—can individually decide whether to recognise a particular foreign judgment. In practice, that means that although a judgment from a court in England can be near-automatically recognised and enforced in Scotland under the 1982 Act, a foreign judgment registered in an English court under the 2019 Hague convention will need to be registered separately in a Scottish court under the convention. The 1982 Act also implements other conventions to which the UK is already a party, including the 2005 Hague convention on choice of court agreements. That convention includes recognition and enforcement rules for judgments given where an exclusive choice of court agreement was in place.”
“We believe that we have sufficient capacity to cope. Actually, we are speeding up the process, because these cases would have to be taken to a UK court anyway. Taking this approach will mean that the rules have been agreed in advance; we believe that that will streamline capacity and make things easier. Thirdly, the draft regulations will ensure that foreign judgments do not make their way into the intra-UK recognition and enforcement system in the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982. The 1982 Act’s rules govern the recognition and enforcement of judgments between the different jurisdictions of the UK; they allow judgments made in one UK jurisdiction to be near-automatically enforced in another. The draft regulations will exclude judgments registered under the 2019 Hague convention from that mechanism.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth for her support. She asked for two clarifications. The first was about the engagement that has taken place with the devolved Administrations; I am happy to confirm that there has been more or less constant engagement throughout the process. I understand that formal consent was provided for Northern Ireland by the permanent secretary at the Department of Justice in January 2024, that the Scottish Government notified the Scottish Parliament of the instrument in March, and that the Scottish Parliament agreed earlier this month that it is content for the Scottish Government to give formal consent. The delay is simply a matter of the processes going through in both Northern Ireland and Scotland. I hope that that has answered the queries of the hon.”
“Joining the 2019 Hague convention as soon as possible is in the UK’s best interests. As I have said, it is an important step for the UK to provide greater clarity and confidence for UK businesses and citizens who work and live across international borders. I am eager to see the necessary legislation in place to facilitate that. I therefore commend this draft regulations to the Committee. Question put and agreed to.”
“I apologise to the hon. Lady for that oversight. As she correctly said, there is a provision under article 29 such that if the UK objects to a new country formally ratifying the treaty, we can apply for this not to apply, both in that country and in this one. For a country that is already subject to it, she is correct to point out that there is no formal mechanism for withdrawing from it. I would venture to suggest—I will correct this if I inadvertently mis-speak here—that what would then happen is that there would be a negotiation among the parties to the convention. If agreement cannot be found, the UK could unilaterally withdraw from it, albeit that that would take a 12-month period of notice. I am grateful for hon. Members’ contributions to the debate.”
“This modest Bill provides remote hearings only when necessary and adds to the flexibility of the ways the courts operate without compromising any of the safeguards of our justice system.”
“Current arrangements mean that those defendants must be produced physically in court within 24 hours of arrest and the lack of court premises or judicial capacity, for example at the weekend, would result in their release back into the general population. That is something we are trying to avoid. In closing, I reiterate my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South for introducing this important Bill, and I can confirm the Government’s support for it. I also want to thank the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock for his support and my hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central and for Bridgwater and West Somerset for their questions. I thank all hon. Members for their attendance this morning.”
“To be clear, in-person hearings will still take place if that is necessary. Hon. Members will be reassured that despite the new powers, the number of hearings in either type of case is not expected to rise and charging decisions are independent of the availability of the court. The changes will establish important safeguards for the public and give magistrates, county and family courts greater flexibility and efficiency. That will enhance public safety. Remote hearings mean that potentially violent individuals, such as those arrested for breaches of injunctions to protect the victims of domestic abuse, can be quickly and efficiently dealt with.”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I promise not to detain the Committee for much longer, but I want to lend my wholehearted support to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South for introducing the Bill. As my hon. Friend set out, the Bill extends the availability of remote hearings in two instances where individuals have been arrested and detained in police custody. The first is for defendants in claims for breach of the terms of certain antisocial injunctions or certain family orders. The second is for a failure to pay either council tax or business rates. Those hearings could be conducted remotely from a custody suite, whereas at present they must be heard in person. The decision to hold a remote hearing will be set at the discretion of the judge after considering the representations of all parties.”
“The employment tribunal panel composition arrangements are now a responsibility of the Senior President of Tribunals, and I understand that he intends to publish the responses to the consultation on proposed reforms shortly. He has a statutory duty to consult my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor before making these arrangements, and my noble and learned Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice will be meeting the Senior President of Tribunals—I think tomorrow—to discuss his proposals as part of that duty.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his question. Many of these issues were raised when the statutory instrument passed through Parliament. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer), who is the courts Minister, has written to the Senior President of Tribunals to convey those concerns, and I think that is in part why my noble and learned Friend is meeting the Senior President of Tribunals tomorrow. [ Official Report , 15 May 2024; Vol. 750, c. 6WC.] (Correction)”
“The one thing the hon. Gentleman did not of course mention was the impact of the pandemic on the criminal justice system, and indeed on the employment tribunal system. [Hon. Members: “Oh, come on!”] Opposition Front Benchers do not like hearing it, but they cannot deny the impact of shutting down the system, in effect, for two years. We have massively increased the resources available and we are working through the backlog, but that will take time.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his question. We have introduced a regional virtual court to safeguard access to justice, and we will always make that available as far as it is possible to do so. As I say, we are working through the backlog at pace.”
“Ministry of Justice reoffending statistics show that those serving a sentence of six months or less have a 59% reoffending rate. For offenders punished with suspended sentences or community orders, the reoffending rate is 24%. The Department’s 2019 analysis of a matched cohort of over 30,000 offenders showed lower reoffending rates for those serving sentences in the community when compared with immediate custody of less than 12 months, avoiding tens of thousands of potential crimes.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that sensible question. I agree that community payback offers offenders an opportunity to make visible reparations to their local communities, with millions of hours being delivered each year. As an example, this March, for the great British spring clean, offenders spent thousands of hours clearing litter across the country. We are trialling a new way to deliver community payback through the rapid deployment pilot, which was launched last year. Community payback teams are working in partnership with local authorities to see incidents cleaned up within 48 hours’ notice, and we are now expanding that to all 12 probation regions.”
“I personally have not, but I gather that Minister of Justice officials are abreast of that. I would like to meet the hon. Gentleman to hear more about that from him personally.”
“Juries are a vital part of our criminal justice system, and jury service is an important civic duty. We want to do everything we can to help jurors feel supported as they undertake that important role, which is why the Government have announced our intention to test counselling sessions for jurors who suffer mental and emotional strain following a trial. That pilot will commence in 15 courts this summer.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her question, which is extremely relevant. As she can imagine, there have been extensive discussions between the Department and the judiciary about this. The senior presiding judge has approved the test sites for the pilot that I have just discussed. Support of the type that we are providing in the pilot has not been provided before, so the pilot itself will inform an essential part of the judgment we make on whether and how we can carry on.”
“I can confirm to my hon. Friend that officials have reviewed and considered ICROs, which involve the use of electronic monitoring, curfew arrangements and rehabilitative requirements targeted towards offenders who would otherwise be in custody. In June last year, we began a pilot of a scheme similar to the one he proposes, involving intense supervision courts, which divert offenders with complex needs away from short custodial sentences and provide them with wrap-around, multi-agency support to target the root causes of their offending behaviour.”
“In response to the Wade review, we have increased sentences by introducing statutory aggravating factors for murders that are preceded by controlling or coercive behaviour, that involve overkill or that are connected with the end of a relationship. We have also consulted publicly on sentencing starting points for murders preceded by controlling or coercive behaviour and for murders committed with a knife or other weapon. The Government are carefully considering the responses to the consultation and will publish their response in due course.”
“To conclude, the draft instrument before us expands the civil legal aid services available in relation to DAPOs and DAPNs to ensure legal aid continues to be available to those most in need, thus ensuring that the DAPO pilot is fully implemented from a legal aid perspective, and that the original policy intention of LASPO is maintained.”
“This form of civil legal aid will apply in DAPO cases where the application for the DAPO is made by the police in the magistrates courts, and it will extend to appeals in the Crown court and to applications to vary or discharge the DAPO in these courts. As I indicated in my introduction, this order complements the changes made by SI 2023/150 of 7 February 2023, and ensures that we meet the policy objective of making legal aid available, subject to tests, for DAPNs and DAPOs across civil, family and criminal courts.”
“Before turning to the amendments in this instrument, I will briefly set out how the civil legal aid scheme works. In general, civil legal aid is available to an individual if their issue is listed within part 1 of schedule 1 of LASPO. Then, in most cases, an individual must pass a means test—a check on their financial eligibility—and a merits test, which is a check to ensure that the taxpayer is not funding entirely unmeritorious claims. I will now turn to the changes covered by the order before us today, which is relatively short. This statutory instrument will made advocacy—for those persons who are protected by a DAPO, or for those who are subject or potentially subject to a DAPO—under civil legal aid available in the magistrates courts.”
“The provisions in this statutory instrument complement the provisions in SI 2023/150 of 7 February 2023, which brought both DAPOs and DAPNs into the scope of legal aid. SI 2023/150 also increased the flexibility with which medical professionals can provide supporting evidence to victims of domestic abuse. Medical professionals are now able to provide supporting evidence for a legal aid application following a telephone or video conferencing consultation, rather than only after a face-to-face consultation. The intention of the legal aid scheme, as set out in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, or LASPO, is to provide legal aid to those most in need. We believe that this SI, together with SI 2023/150, will help to meet that objective for DAPNs and DAPOs.”
“That would mean that where a DAPO was made in the magistrates court, the appeal must then be heard in the Crown court; where the DAPO was made in a Crown court, the appeal must be heard in the Court of Appeal. Appeals against decisions made by other courts, such as the family court, county court or the High Court, would be heard in accordance with section 46 of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021. This year, the Government will launch a pilot for an anticipated two years for DAPNs and DAPOs. To ensure that those protected by and subject to the DAPO are able to access legal aid, subject to means and merits tests, this statutory instrument will expand civil legal aid services in England and Wales by making civil legal aid for advocacy available in magistrates courts’ proceedings for DAPOs and in the Crown court on any related appeal.”
“If the police issue a DAPN, they must then apply for a DAPO in the magistrates court, and this application must be heard by the court within 48 hours of the DAPN being issued. DAPOs are a new civil order available in all courts: magistrates courts, Crown court, family court and county court. They can be sought by a variety of parties and have a flexible duration to provide longer-term protection to the victim when necessary and proportionate. The DAPO can place firmer conditions on the perpetrators than other currently available protection orders such as electronic monitoring, and impose requirements such as mandating attendance on a behaviour change or substance misuse programme. Breach of a DAPO is a criminal offence punishable by up to five years in prison. Appeals against a DAPO would have to be made to the appropriate court.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (Legal Aid: Domestic Abuse) (Amendment) Order 2024. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. For context, part 3 of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 introduced a new civil domestic abuse protection notice, or DAPN, to provide immediate protection following a domestic abuse incident, and a new civil domestic abuse protection order, or DAPO, to provide flexible longer-term protection for victims. In summary, the difference between DAPNs and DAPOs is as follows. DAPNs are police-issued notices to provide victims with immediate protection following an incident. A DAPN can require the perpetrator not to contact or come within a specified distance of the victim.”
“If the pilot does not deliver the desired outcome, we will seek to review that. With that, I commend the SI to the House. Question put and agreed to.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for welcoming the measures in this SI. The means test that I mentioned earlier is to ensure that the legal aid that we provide goes to the people who need it the most. Every case will have to be subject to it, which is why not everybody will get legal aid in every circumstance. We are keeping things under review. We have increased legal aid fees, and we are encouraging more providers to undertake the work that is required. The reason we are doing a pilot, rather than rolling out the measure nationally, is to make sure that we have set the fees at the right level so that they attract the right level of interest from firms to provide the work that is needed. We are going to keep that under review. The reason for doing a pilot is to assess that.”
“In this way, the requirement for premeditation is on a par with the other circumstances that govern when the murder of a child would normally attract a whole-life- order starting point—namely, the murder of a child if the abduction of the child is involved, or sexual or sadistic motivation. All cases of child murder are rightly punished severely by the courts, and all those who are convicted and given minimum custodial terms face long prison sentences, possibly with no prospect of Parole Board release.”
“I understand entirely why society feels it necessary to ensure that those responsible for these terrible crimes are properly punished. As my hon. Friend set out, under section 21 of the Sentencing Act 2020 the starting point for the murder of a child involving sexual or sadistic motivation, or their abduction, is normally a whole-life order. There may then be aggravating factors that could result in an increase to the minimum term due to the victim being a child. I understand my hon. Friend’s concern that a requirement for premeditation is too high a threshold for imposing a whole-life order, but I contend that it is right that we set a high threshold in legislation for the imposition of such an order, which is the most severe punishment that our courts can impose.”
“In 2018, we introduced decision summaries, which enable the Parole Board to provide victims and others with an explanation of the reasons for its decisions. In 2019, we introduced the reconsideration mechanism, which provided a way to challenge a parole decision if it appears legally or procedurally flawed. Finally, in 2022 we amended the Parole Board rules to enable parole hearings to be heard in public, if it is in the interests of justice to do so. There have been four such hearings to date. I now move on to my hon. Friend’s points about child murder. I want to acknowledge that all murders are terrible acts, but those where the victim is a child are particularly so. The murder of those most vulnerable in our society causes extreme grief and devastation for the loved ones left behind.”
“Through the Bill, we will codify the release test, making clear that minimising risk and protecting the public are the sole considerations for release. The Bill introduces a new power to allow Ministers to direct a second check by independent courts in cases where the board has directed the release of one of the most serious offenders, which would, of course, include those convicted of murder. We hope that this measure will reassure the public that the process is as rigorous as possible, and that there is an extra safeguard in the release process for the most serious offenders. In recent years, the Government have introduced several policies to improve the openness, transparency and public understanding of the parole process.”
“It introduces a compliance framework by placing a new duty on criminal justice bodies to collect and share code compliance information with police and crime commissioners. We will hold a full public consultation on the code once the Bill receives Royal Assent, which I hope shows how seriously we treat today’s topic. It is important that we turn for a few moments to the role of the Parole Board, which determines whether to release offenders eligible for automatic release by deciding whether it is necessary for the prisoner to remain confined. The Victims and Prisoners Bill, which is currently before Parliament, introduces a range of reforms to the parole process that are designed to help to protect the public and to bolster public confidence in the system.”
“Most important, as I am sure my hon. Friend would agree, given his speech, is the question of how we can support victims in understanding this terminology. Under the victims code, victims, including bereaved families, are entitled to be told the sentence the offender received, including a short explanation of the meaning and effect of the sentence by the witness care unit, which is a police-led function. If they have any questions about the sentence that the witness care unit is unable to answer, the victim will be referred to the Crown Prosecution Service, which will answer their questions for them. To ensure that agencies know what is expected of them, the Victims and Prisoners Bill places a statutory duty on the relevant agencies to provide services in accordance with the victims code, unless there is good reason not to.”
“Friend around understanding how life sentences work and the phrase “jailed for life”. We acknowledge his concern around the lack of understanding that the minimum tariff set by the judge represents the punishment part of the sentence, and the decision from the Parole Board concerns only the public protection element after the minimum tariff is served. It is not an avenue for early release, as some consider it to be; however, I accept that it can be misunderstood by the general public. We have also noted that the Justice Committee’s report highlights the Sentencing Academy’s work to review the terminology of sentencing, which is an important piece of work that could contribute to broader initiatives or proposals in this domain. The Government, like the Justice Committee, await its findings, and will review them with great care.”
“We have delivered and continue to deliver several initiatives aimed at strengthening public understanding of sentences, some of which we set out in January in response to the insightful report produced by the Justice Committee, of which my hon. Friend is a member. Our response described a wide range of actions that we have taken. I want to focus on a few specific issues that my hon. Friend has raised today, especially the terminology in sentencing and the points he raised about the murder of a child. Sentencing terminology is at the heart of today’s debate. I agree with my hon. Friend that it is important that this terminology should always be accessible and comprehensible to the public. On terminology used for life sentences in particular, the Government recognise the concerns raised by my hon.”
“Schedule 21 to the sentencing code contains the statutory framework for setting the minimum term. The schedule includes starting points depending on the circumstances surrounding the murder and non-exhaustive lists of aggravating and mitigating circumstances. For adult offenders, those range from 15 years right the way through to a whole-life order, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich said. Many offenders on life sentences remain in prison beyond their minimum term, and some may never be released. If they are released, they will, as my hon. Friend said, remain on licence for the rest of their life and will be subject to recall to prison at any time if they breach any of the conditions of their licence.”
“Friend has extensive knowledge of the sentencing framework, but it may be helpful if I set out some information on life sentences. Life sentences, which apply to a range of offences, usually have a minimum term, which is set by the court, as my hon. Friend said. This period must be served in prison in full before the offender can be considered for release, at the discretion of the Parole Board. The minimum term is for the purposes of punishment and deterrence. It is essential that sentences for the gravest offence—murder—and other offences sufficiently serious to attract a life sentence have a minimum term that punishes the convicted offender and acts as a deterrent to others. Mandatory life sentences must be imposed on anyone convicted of murder.”
“It is vital that the public have confidence in sentencing, and are able to understand the circumstances in which sentences are given and how they operate in practice. Our efforts to ensure that the justice system is open and transparent are embedded in the working cultures, procedures and practices of our courts and tribunals; consequently, such considerations will always form part of the ambitions for reforming the justice system. The availability of judgments and the accessibility of sentencing remarks, including those given in life sentence cases, are key components of the principle of open justice, helping to build understanding and confidence in sentencing. The Sentencing Act 2020 puts a duty on the courts to explain how they have determined the sentence and what the sentence means for the offender. My hon.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. I start by thanking and congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) on securing a debate on this important subject. I commend him on his excellent work supporting victims, bringing these important issues to the attention of parliamentarians, and campaigning for sentencing changes. I completely agree that sentencing fitting the crime and improving public understanding is vital to public confidence in the justice system. As he mentioned, he is an active and engaged member of the Justice Committee, whose vital report, “Public opinion and understanding of sentencing”, I will refer to later in my speech. A life sentence is the most severe punishment that our courts can impose.”
“Friend and those in attendance, at least to an extent, that I and the Government continue to take these issues into account as we strive to improve the criminal justice system. Question put and agreed to.”