Charlotte Nichols
MP for Warrington North · Labour · United Kingdom
“Does the Minister accept that although people co-infected with HIV and hepatitis C represent only around 7% of those on infected blood support schemes, they make up roughly 14% of those receiving special category support, because of the disproportionate harm caused by early hepatitis C treatments?”
“I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s points, and those of the victims whose voices he is bringing to the fore. Does he agree that both the proposals by the Government and the amendment to the Victims and Courts Bill that was agreed to in the other place, which says that victims will have the right to access a transcript of the jud…”
“In the spirit of cross-party consensus, I commend both the hon. Member on securing this debate and the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) on her campaigning work in this area.”
“The violence against women and girls sector has not had the opportunity to come together to discuss it, and the Government’s framing and narrative has been to pit survivors and defendants against each other in a way that I think is deeply damaging.”
“I thought long and hard about speaking today. I will allow right hon. and hon. Members from the legal profession to make the legal arguments better than I can, and will allow Members who rightly have procedural or rights-based concerns for defendants, which I share, to raise them. I trust that those points will be satisfactorily covered.”
“Shamefully, the tariffs have not been uprated in line with inflation since 2012 and have no eligibility for non-contact sexual offences, which can cause significant and lasting harm.”
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“The Times reports that “Lord Justice Edis, the senior presiding judge for England and Wales, has ordered that sentencing of convicted criminals who are currently on bail should be delayed” from today. According to that report, the order did not specifically exclude rape convictions, which judges have expressed alarm about, given the already abysmal conviction rates of well below 2%. What message does the Secretary of State think such an order sends to victims of sexual violence who are deciding whether they have enough faith in our broken justice system to come forward? When do the Government expect sentencing to restart?”
“Data shows that the number of trains cancelled across the rail network continues to rise and is at the highest level since records began in 2014. The Minister keeps referring to July’s figures, knowing full well just how bad August’s are—in fact, statistics show that trains in Ukraine are running more reliably than our services here, despite that country’s network clearly being under considerably greater pressure. These problems do not stop with Avanti: persistent issues on the west coast main line have a knock-on impact on any east-west services crossing that line. When will the Minister accept that the current system is simply not working?”
“To pick up on that point, the Minister referred to companies paying according to how much of their product is recycled. What consideration has she given to producers that already have closed loop recycling schemes in place? Wiltshire Farm Foods in my constituency is an example. It has a scheme that is more effective for recycling its own products than what the Government propose here.”
“I concur with the point that the hon. Member made about the sense of interrogation that many of our constituents feel when going through a process that can be very degrading. In the case of one of my constituents the assessor dropped a pen, and when my constituent bent down, picked it up and handed it to the assessor, that was used against them in their assessment. Such stories are not uncommon. We need urgent and radical reform to make sure that people are not treated like criminals for trying to seek help with their living costs.”
“Members in this room will have heard regularly from constituents who have been treated with contempt by the system, with two thirds of people with MS saying that their experience of the PIP process had a negative impact on their health, and two in five saying that that experience made them feel embarrassed. I hope that it is us who are embarrassed by those statistics. I hope the Minister will listen to the experience of those with MS and bring forward changes such as those that I have set out today. I would welcome the opportunity to meet the Minister and the MS Society to thrash out some of these issues in greater detail.”
“To summarise, I am sure that the Minister agrees that disabled people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, but surely he can see that the PIP assessment process demonstrates an antiquated and outdated understanding of what disability is, based on a narrow definition of disability. That needs to be brought into the 21st century once and for all. The PIP process and criteria should accurately reflect the impact of living with MS, including mobility, fluctuation and hidden symptoms, with a move away from arbitrary measures towards a more flexible approach.”
“Over one third of those who described their MS as being at an advanced stage received an award length of two to five years and 5% received an award length of two years. MS is a progressive, lifelong condition for which there is no cure, and it is just wrong that those who have already been deemed eligible for maximum support on PIP have to go through the stress and turmoil of applying for PIP again. I would appreciate the Minister outlining when the DWP intends to set out which conditions will be covered as part of the severe disability group. Will that include multiple sclerosis?”
“Another example of how the PIP system is stacked against people with multiple sclerosis and other fluctuating conditions is the 50% rule, which is a rigid and arbitrary test that requires symptoms to affect someone for more than half of a given period in order to count towards a PIP claim. I join the MS Society and Parkinson’s UK in calling for the Government to scrap the PIP 20-metre rule and to work with experts to come up with an appropriate alternative that considers conditions that fluctuate, or relapse and remit, and that have hidden symptoms. The 50% rule should be more flexible so as to cover and consider the frequency, severity and impact of all symptoms over time. Finally, the White Paper commits to the introduction of a severe disability group for progressive conditions that have no cure, which I welcome.”
“I ask the Minister, in his remarks, to provide assurances on what the Department will to do improve the enforcement of the guidance by his Department. My second point relates to the PIP 20-metre rule. The rule means that someone who can walk one step more than 20 metres is ineligible for the highest rate of mobility support. How a person functions under clinical testing and in their natural environment can clearly be different. Twenty metres represents a snapshot of someone’s day. That does not take into account the impact that MS symptoms such as fatigue can have for days or weeks after people attend their assessment. Symptoms can also affect people differently from day to day.”
“Another person with MS told the MS Society that “no one was reading about the information presented to them by medical experts and effectively accused me of lying.” Informal observations must be backed up by evidence from the claimant or, if an informal observation is given more weight than evidence to make an assessment about someone’s ability to do a particular activity, the reason for doing so should be fully justified in the assessment report. Additionally, assessors should inform people with MS that they are subject to those informal observations. PIP guidance should be changed to say that the reliability criteria should be applied, which could be through follow-up questions if someone is observed to be doing something that contradicts the evidence provided.”
“Julia’s report marked her as being able to prepare her own food, on the basis of being able to cut up a banana herself. PIP guidance states that assessors should “balance informal observations with evidence from professionals who may have observed the claimant more regularly.” That clearly is not happening. Guidance is not being correctly applied by assessors, or enforced by the DWP. People who have seen their assessment report say that informal observations are given more weight than the medical evidence. In fact, only 22% of people with MS said that their report referenced evidence gathered from their healthcare professional.”
“I will focus my remarks on three key areas: the use of informal, including covert, observations, which colleagues have picked up on; the PIP 20-metre and 50% rules; and repeat assessments as they relate to people experiencing multiple sclerosis. On informal observations, assessors too often make decisions based on how people look during their assessment. For example, at the meeting to which I referred earlier, Bethen, Neil and Julia, who all live with MS, shared their experiences. Bethen saw in her report that she was awarded nothing because she was “holding a bag” in her assessment. That was despite tripping over during the assessment and displaying obvious evidence of struggling with mobility. Neil’s report came back stating that he “navigated the test centre well”.”
“The preliminary findings show that almost three in five people—57.5%—said that they were unable to accurately explain their condition and how it affects their daily life; more than 61% disagreed that their assessor considered their hidden symptoms, such as pain, fatigue and cognitive difficulties; and of those who saw their report, 61% said that it did not give an accurate reflection of their MS and half said that it contained factual errors. The health and disability White Paper takes appropriate steps to fix some of the problems, such as by committing to improving training for assessors, but significant additional changes need to be made to the disability benefits system so that it is fit for purpose in 2023.”
“The extra costs place a significant financial strain on disabled people, and PIP can help people to stay in work for longer, to participate fully in society and to retain their independence. Ten years since its introduction, the PIP process still fails to adequately recognise the fluctuating nature of MS and other fluctuating conditions. It does not allow people with MS to properly communicate some of their less visible symptoms, which none the less can prove extremely debilitating. What is more, according to new evidence from the MS Society, which provides the secretariat for the APPG, it leaves people with MS feeling anxious, stressed and embarrassed. Earlier this summer, the MS Society surveyed more than 3,500 people living with the condition about their experiences with PIP, and it will publish a report next month.”
“We heard how often people with fluctuating conditions are let down by the PIP system. In the UK, more than 130,000 people have multiple sclerosis. Living with MS is hard. Although no two people with MS are the same, there are numerous common symptoms that can significantly impact people’s lives, ranging from those that are more visible, such as problems with walking and moving around, to those that are less visible, such as pain, fatigue and cognitive issues. Symptoms regularly fluctuate: one day, someone might be active and able to go about their daily business, but the next day it can feel impossible for them to get out of bed. Welfare support is therefore vital for many people with MS to manage their extra living costs, to help with the good days and the bad.”
“As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for multiple sclerosis, I will focus my remarks on the specificities of the experience of those with MS—first, for the sake of brevity, because colleagues have already made some of the general points far better than I would, and secondly, because the experience of those with MS seems to be overlooked in policy terms because it is too common to be considered a rare condition but too rare to be considered alongside more common illnesses. My remarks will nevertheless be relevant to the one in six people living with a neurological condition and to people with conditions that are functionally similar to MS. As chair of the APPG for MS, before recess I chaired a joint meeting with the APPG for Parkinson’s and the APPG on Crohn’s and colitis, to discuss PIP.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I thank the Petitions Committee for selecting today’s debate and the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) for opening our discussion. Probably like all MPs present, PIP and legacy disability benefits issues form a huge part of my constituency case load. I pay tribute to my casework team—Paula, Sean, Sarah and Leigh—for their help in supporting my constituents in Warrington North. Given all the cuts to citizens advice bureaux and other support, MPs’ offices increasingly pick up the pieces of a broken welfare and health system, so we can never give our teams enough credit for their diligence in helping us to help our most vulnerable constituents. My team all have an excellent track record when it comes to appeals in this subject area.”
“The Minister speaks about reforms and live, ongoing discussions. Can he confirm that he is having conversations with Treasury colleagues about not just the eligibility criteria for the reforms and support, but their adequacy? To use MS as an example again, the average cost of having MS is an additional £337 a month. Can the Minister confirm that the issue is not just eligibility, but the adequacy of the support to meet the additional costs faced by disabled people with various conditions?”
“In her answer to me on 8 June 2023 about risk-based exclusions, the Leader of the House said that “it is the intention of both the Commission and myself to bring forward a motion following that debate. There is time to do that before the summer recess.” —[ Official Report , 8 June 2023; Vol. 733, c. 885.] We are rapidly running out of parliamentary time, with fresh, concerning allegations made on “Newsnight” last night and the publication today of yet another report on serious sexual misconduct by an MP. How much longer will we have to wait before we take the necessary steps to make Parliament a safer workplace and begin to repair its public reputation?”
“It is vital that the Government work with sector experts and those with lived experience of in-patient mental health services in getting this vital area of policy right. As someone who spent almost a month as a psychiatric in-patient back in 2021, I know at first hand how difficult, disorientating and dehumanising these settings are, at a time when you are at your most vulnerable, and how easily things that are well-intentioned can and do go wrong. Will the Secretary of State therefore commit to working with Mind and other organisations giving patients and their families a voice to shape these improvements, to ensure that any changes happen with patients and their families, and not to them?”
“My hon. Friend has hit on an important point. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on nuclear energy, one of my concerns is the fact that Great British Nuclear is going to be in DESNZ at all. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Cabinet Office might be a more suitable Department, given that the two biggest issues in the delivery of new nuclear are planning and people, neither of which are under DESNZ’s ministerial purview?”
“The right hon. Gentleman asks where the issue came from. The issue in Germany was caused by the frankly idiotic decision to stop new nuclear, but I am not sure that that makes the case for new coal. Surely, we should be arguing for more new nuclear in the UK.”
“I am hopeful that the Minister will soon bring forward something so that we can discuss this. As colleagues on all sides of the House have said, there is a need for a modern, fact- based discussion. Will he ask his Conservative colleagues to ensure that, when we have those discussions, male colleagues are not speculating about what might be in a woman’s mind when she goes to seek treatment of that kind?”
“In Monday’s debate on risk-based exclusions, one hon. Member said they were uncomfortable supporting the Commission’s proposals on safeguarding due to the fact that the Representation of the People Act 1981 has never explicitly precluded someone on the sex offenders register from standing for office. As utterly bizarre as I found the logic underpinning that argument, the problem struck me as being very easy to remedy. On that basis, will the Leader of the House please advise when she will bring forward a statutory instrument to amend the Representation of the People Act in order to disbar people who we already know are sex offenders from entering this place, and to ensure that those put on the register during their time in Parliament are ineligible to stay and cannot seek to return at subsequent elections?”
“But until we live in a society where everyone can be themselves without risk of discrimination or violence, and where we can all talk about Pride purely as a celebration, without having to come to these debates and say anything negative, I will remain grateful to Members for securing debates such as this. I hope the Minister will give us some clear information in his response about the many issues raised that still need to be resolved—the concerns about RSE in schools, conversion therapy, LGBT homelessness, and all these other issues—to get us to that place as a country.”
“Her mother has given a really beautiful interview, which I encourage everyone to read, with the Warrington Guardian this week, in which she says: “I was proud that she was who she wanted to be and felt comfortable to tell us as a family…who she was.” That is something that everyone should have the right to do. I hope every school can be as proactive as Birchwood High School has been in supporting LGBT students to live as themselves at school and in making sure that they receive that support, so that who they are has no bearing on their ability to access their education in a safe, nurturing and welcoming environment. As we have heard from colleagues across the House, the very fact that we can talk about Pride as something to be celebrated is fantastic, and I am glad that we have this annual event.”
“My community in Warrington North, and the quiet, sleepy village of Culcheth, was cast into the national and international spotlight for all the wrong reasons in February this year, after the murder of Brianna Ghey. Brianna was 16 years old. She was much loved by her family, her classmates and her community, and she was also trans. With the upcoming trial of those accused of her murder, both of whom were under 16, I am going to be very careful not to say anything that is sub judice. What I want to point to though, in the wake of what has happened, is the fact that Brianna was out at school. She was supported by her school and by her family.”
“There are those in this place who argue that parents should be able to opt their children out of having LGBT-inclusive relationship and sex education at school until they are 16 or potentially 18 years old. This comes in the context of a rise in violent attacks being perpetrated against LGBT people, including where the perpetrators are under that age threshold. There was a case recently in Liverpool of a homophobic hate crime where three men were assaulted and subjected to homophobic abuse by a group of teenagers, one of whom had a knife. Where exactly are we meant to deal with the hatred that sits behind these crimes—promoting a more inclusive and just society, and the right of us all to have happy, healthy and safe relationships—if we cannot even lay the foundation for that in our schools and classrooms?”
“We clearly need changes to relationships and sex education in schools to ensure that we have something that is LGBT-inclusive and that focuses on bodily autonomy, consent, respect, and the establishing and communication of boundaries; but that is not what is being proposed. It is about shutting it down and creating a hostile environment for LGBT youth. This is important, and not just for young people who are themselves LGBT and may be at risk of harm if they have to rely on the internet to search out information on LGBT relationships or safe sex. It is important because more and more young people are growing up in households where their parents are LGBT and because of what that means for the discrimination they may face as a family, and because all of us will come into contact with LGBT people throughout our social and working lives.”
“Where did you meet?” What she was interested in was the gossip, not the specificities of who it was. She had no problem with her MP going on a date with a women, nor should she. But this supportive indifference is not something that I take for granted, knowing from my friends, colleagues and constituency mailbag how many LGBT people have been met with hostility, discrimination and even violence on coming out. But all of us should be able to, and until everyone can, that is why Pride matters. It is horrible, having seen the difference that section 28’s repeal has made even in my own time in education, that there are those in this place who would see it brought back by the back door.”
“She did not “make me LGBT”, but she did let me know that she really would not care if I was, and made me feel, for the first time, comfortable and unbothered about being bisexual. When, many years later, I came out to friends and family, I was lucky to be met with the same kind of supportive indifference. My favourite example recently was from a constituent of mine, a much older woman I met through one of my local churches. She asked me what I was doing after the visit. I told her that I had a date and she said, “Ooh, tell me about him, then. Where did you meet?” I said, “Actually, the date’s with a woman,” and she turned to me and said, “Oh yes, of course; I shouldn’t really have assumed, should I?” Then she was like, “Anyway, tell me about her.”
“Pride Month is an opportunity for us to celebrate who we are and the progress we have made, to acknowledge the giants on whose shoulders we stand but also to highlight ongoing issues and chart a course for fixing them. This year is the 20th anniversary of the repeal of section 28. I was in year 9 when it was first legal for teachers even to acknowledge that LGBT people existed, let alone offer any kind of pastoral support to students who might be struggling to come to terms with their sexuality or experiencing bullying because of it. I know the difference that it made to me, as a teenager, when my art teacher, Mrs Tibbatts, was able to broach the subject with me gently after picking up on some unhappy and sapphic themes, shall we say, in my artwork.”
“Let me first associate myself, Mr Deputy Speaker, with your tribute to the late Glenda Jackson, who was a true ally of the LGBT community and who always advocated strongly for the rights of LGBT people in her constituency and around the world—an example that I think all parliamentarians should aspire to follow. Pride is important because somewhere tonight, someone will still believe that they are better off dead than being themselves. Pride is important because there are countries all around the world where being LGBT is not only illegal, but could mean life imprisonment or even the death penalty. Pride is important because too many parents would rather disown their children than love them for who they are, which is one of the key drivers of homelessness among LGBT youth.”
“I thank the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) for securing the debate. The fact that we have this important annual debate for Pride Month, and the very fact of its existence, says something very positive about the progressive change that we have seen in Parliament and as a society in a relatively short time, since the disgraceful and discriminatory treatment following her outing of the lesbian MP Maureen Colquhoun in the late 1970s, and Chris Smith’s becoming the UK’s first openly gay MP in 1984.”
“I am very mindful of what my hon. Friend says about the Pandora’s box that has been opened on transphobia by some of the debates in this place. I referred in my speech to the comments made by Brianna Ghey’s mother on the sickening trolling of her family on Mumsnet, Twitter and other places, with people making awful transphobic comments about her daughter. Does my hon. Friend agree it is incumbent on all of us to make sure that, in this place, we are not fanning the flames of that kind of hatred?”
“During a recent visit to Kenya with STOPAIDS, charities over there that support people in the LGBT community—they live in a country where that community is illegal—were really impressed and excited about our being allegedly the gayest Parliament in the world. One thing they said to me that I found quite moving was that, even in the gayest Parliament in the world, we are still going backwards in many places on LGBT rights, so it is important that, while we recognise that achievement, we acknowledge that being the gayest Parliament in the world does not mean that we are putting through the best policies for LGBT people here or globally.”
“Does the hon. Gentleman know how long on average it takes for someone to be charged? What does he suggest might happen in the intervening period to ensure that people are safe, without having a risk-based policy such as that proposed in place? What does he suggest we do?”
“I am worried that the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood what I was trying to get across. I am not suggesting that somebody awaiting a charge is in any way guilty; that is the whole point of the fact that they are awaiting a charge. However, without a system that comes in before the point of charge—which can take a few years—and if measures should be taken to mitigate the risk to others, what does he suggest we do without the proposal we are discussing?”
“To go back to the question that I asked the hon. Gentleman in my first intervention, is he aware of how long it takes, from the point of arrest, to reach the point of charge? He says that if there is evidence, the police should charge people, and of course we all agree with that, but is he not aware that the average time for that to happen is between two and three years? That does not mean that there is no evidence in those cases for the police to act on.”
“I want to make the hon. Gentleman aware that a charge in criminal law means there is a high likelihood that a jury, reasonably instructed, would find the defendant guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. That is what a charge means in law. It is not, “There is a case to answer. We’ll see you in court.” That is what it means. Does he not think that in a civil process, which this is—this is a workplace, it is a civil process—setting the point at which we as a House might act at that point in the criminal process is just too high?”
“I agree in principle that some safeguarding measures should be taken outside the House, but the right hon. Gentleman is failing to recognise that this is about our duties as a House. What would it mean, in a context where we had chosen not to act to put some sort of safeguarding policies and procedures in place, if someone who we chose not to exclude—were that proportionate and reasonable—went on to reoffend? This is about what our responsibilities and duties would be as employers and as a House, if we allowed that to happen.”
“I want to pick up the right hon. Gentleman on his use of the term “sanctions.” Again, when we talk about a risk-based approach and about mitigating some of those risks, exclusion is not a sanction. Exclusion is a safeguarding proposal that is done without prejudice, in the same way that, in any other workplace, people can be suspended while an investigation is carried out, for safeguarding purposes. We have 650 individual employers, as well as the House itself, so does he not think that we have the same duties and responsibilities around safeguarding as any other workplace?”
“My hon. Friend the shadow Minister is making an important point about where smart meters cannot always be installed and some of the difficulties that there have been in this process. I am sure that both he and the Secretary of State will be aware of the situation in the area around RAF Fylingdales, for example, where, because of the strength of some of the radio technology used there, people cannot get a smart meter in something like a 40-mile radius of the airbase. Does he think that the Government considered such things when they put in the 2019 target that they have so spectacularly failed to hit?”
“I commend the House of Commons Commission for the thorough consideration that it has given to the topic of risk-based exclusions and the report that it published this week with recommendations for how we can improve our internal procedures, including better alignment with the criminal process, to ensure that Parliament is a safe working environment, and that safeguarding measures can be put in place around those under investigation while serious allegations are considered. This is not a party political issue but a House issue, so can the Leader of the House explain why Monday’s debate will be a general debate on risk-based exclusions and not a motion on the adoption of these recommendations in her name, and can she tell us how much longer we can be expected to wait for long-overdue progress?”
“This is something that is not required in Leicester.” We certainly think that medics are a must, but, as Wresting Resurgence says, “A national approach to licensing would be very welcomed.” It is quite right—it would.”
“In that case, the council’s licensing committee unanimously refused the application, saying that the event was “very different in nature and duration to rugby matches held regularly at the venue.” Wrestling Resurgence, a midlands-based promoter, sent us the various procedures it puts in place when obtaining a licence from Nottingham City Council—specifically, that a medic must be present—but argued that “some form of ‘fit and proper persons’ test should be in place for prospective promotions, similar to ownership tests in football, or that at minimum some basic standardised requirements put in place.” The company highlighted the disparity in licensing requirements, saying: “In Nottingham, where we run events, it is a requirement that wrestling event organisers ensure a medical professional is present at all times during a performance.”
“Another interesting story emerged in 2011, when the Royal Albert Hall, a venue famous for holding wrestling shows since the beginning of professional wrestling, faced local opposition to its request to add boxing and wrestling to the list of permitted activities. The complaints seemed entirely focused on “problems with antisocial behaviour, public safety, noise and disturbance, and degradation of the surrounding area.” Again, safety was not mentioned, but there was the sense, as there is so often, that wrestling appeals to people less socially acceptable to residents than, say, Proms-goers. A similar opinion seems to be held by residents around Headingley in Leeds, despite the fact that it is a sporting venue.”
“I appreciate that this is a devolved matter, but we are told it can be difficult to run shows in Edinburgh, for example, because wrestling is classed as sport for licensing purposes, and therefore performances in theatres and other venues can apparently be very difficult. What that means in actuality is confusion and potentially dangerous situations. There are examples of licensing schemes causing problems. In Derby, one venue had a licence for live music and sports events, but the council required a temporary licence for wrestling, which was seen as separate from sport. The council refused the licence to the venue, owing to fears about congestion—notably, not about safety or the suitability of the athletes or venue.”
“Manchester thinks about numbers, acknowledging that a licence is not required for a play, dance, film, indoor sporting event or, indeed, boxing or wrestling, defined as a “contest, exhibition or display of Greco-Roman wrestling or freestyle wrestling between 8am and 11pm,” where attendance is 1,000 or fewer. By including the sense that wrestling might be a “display” rather than a contest, it opens up potential for confusion about whether professional wrestling is included. Surely all Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling is a contest, as that is what actively defines them as different from professional wrestling. There are difficulties, too, in other areas.”
“In Leicester, for instance, wrestling is considered “regulated entertainment”—in itself interesting, given the wholly unregulated nature of wrestling in actuality—alongside the performance of a play, exhibition or music, or an indoor sporting event. Boxing is the only sport mentioned on the list. In Nottingham, wrestling is licensed under the “regulated entertainment” classification, but with a caveat that, although no licence is required for Greco-Roman or freestyle, combined fighting sports are licensable as boxing or wrestling entertainment, rather than an indoor sporting event. Similarly, Derby City Council, which has a whole section on boxing, wrestling and fighting sports, seems to compare wrestling to mixed martial arts rather than theatre.”