Keir Mather
MP for Selby · Labour · United Kingdom
“May I start by extending my thanks to the shadow Minister? Anyone who can endure trading remarks with me on the Railways Bill for as long as we were in Committee together is an absolute stalwart and a credit to the House, so I thank him for working with me on that.”
“I am glad that the Lib Dem spokesperson shares our concern about consumer rights. Disruption and cancellations—but also disruptive passengers, unfortunately—can ruin the holidays of British holiday- makers who save so much to facilitate those experiences.”
“That is a very theatrical question from the shadow Minister on the scale of the challenge that we face. I can confirm that the meetings that we are having on EES, both in Government and with our counterparts, are to ensure that we get this right, ahead of the peak period.”
“I thank the Lib Dem spokesperson for his question. I can confirm that we have discussed the flow of passengers through member state airports with our relevant partners in the European Commission, and with member states. That is certainly something I have been doing over the past 10 months.”
“I join my hon. Friend in extending my thanks to CROs across the country for the incredible work that they do. We want to ensure that CROs are tret with dignity and respect, and that they are empowered to carry out their incredible duties.”
“I thank the shadow Minister for his question. I can confirm that I have been clear with Ministers in Government, and that Ministers have been clear with French and EU counterparts, that they should do all they can to avoid disruption, including using the existing flexibilities in EES regulations.”
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“I am very happy to engage with the hon. Lady’s constituents on this matter, and I thank her for so robustly defending them in this House. She is right to say that we have spoken a lot about the importance of CROs to rural, island and coastal communities. She brings an incredibly important perspective on the implications for cities, especially as we look towards the summer period and peak tourist season. She is right to point to the fact that this will build as an issue over the summer. When the changes were originally announced, they were due to be implemented in September, but that is not to say that I am not cognisant of the fact that there could be implications if people feel demotivated and unwilling to attend a call-out before then.”
“The safety of the public and the operational capacity of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency are of the utmost importance to the Government. CROs feeling that they are respected and able to play their full part in this process will facilitate that, and that is what I am determined to achieve. My hon. Friend is right to push me on the question of trade union involvement, and my expectation is that trade unions should play their full role in representing their members.”
“I have been very clear from this Dispatch Box that I am tasking my officials with determining what information can be released in relation to the hon. Member’s questions. It is critical that MPs are able to engage fully in this process and hold me to account as they do so. As I said at the start, ultimately we had to comply with the judgment passed down by the Court of Appeal. That mandated the need to change the current system, because if we had carried on implementing it, we would not have been compliant with the law. The question now is what comes next and what the long-term options are, and I am committed to exploring that with Members from across the House.”
“Coastguard rescue officers in Bournemouth East carry out an incredible service on behalf of their local community and their country in keeping the public safe, and we thank them deeply for their service. I can confirm to my hon. Friend that we are looking at a range of options for what comes next. He must play his part in that process, alongside trade unions. I reiterate that I want CROs to feel they can fully and frankly contribute their views about the implications of this decision, especially now that there is more time, which allows them to properly consider the full range of how this may impact them, alongside primary employment and other considerations. I would encourage him to share that with me, and let us all collaborate in this process to make sure that the voices of CROs are heard.”
“Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) about ensuring that MPs are kept up to date on all of the latest steps in this process and that they can play their full role in holding me to account, so that we get this right for CROs.”
“The situation that the hon. Gentleman describes of a CRO in his constituency is exactly what I want to avoid. He is right to point out that, like a number of the CROs I spoke to the other day, some are small business owners, and we appreciate how hard they need to work, often with small margins, to keep their businesses running. That takes us back to the point that the level of remuneration is not something to brag about, but it does allow CROs to do their job, and it is incredibly important that we are cognisant of that. I am very keen to facilitate all of us having an opportunity to play our role in engaging with what comes next. It goes back to the point I made to the right hon.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for being such a champion of the CROs in his constituency, and I am very happy to engage with them if he would be willing to facilitate that. Making sure that CROs can share their views fully and frankly is incredibly important to me. I am attempting to facilitate that by making it very clear that my expectation is that the MCA leadership should give CROs the space to engage fully with me, their local Members of Parliament, their trade unions and their local leadership, so we can get a clear picture of their views about how these changes may impact on their operational ability and we can all work together to find an equitable solution to this challenge.”
“Robust contingency plans do exist across the search-and-rescue capability of the coastguard and other services to enable them to respond to people in distress across the United Kingdom. We do not want to get into such a situation, however, and that is exactly why I have said what I have said to the House today.”
“When I was in Southampton a few days ago, the intricacies, the difficulties and, ultimately, the horribleness of mud rescues were explained to me. The hon. Lady very powerfully makes the point that it is difficult for people who are not active CROs to understand the level of commitment required to carry out this dangerous work in the service of people they have never met. On changing the law and legislative carve-outs, I have been quite clear that, while there are options to facilitate this, they are not a quick fix. Such options will not give CROs certainty in the moment, but they have been considered. On operational risk, I can confirm to the hon. Member and reassure her that impact modelling based on data was carried out by the MCA to inform the recommendation.”
“We need to work through this process strategically and methodically to ensure we are taking the right decision based on data and the lived experience of CROs. I have paused the engagement this week to allow us to more clearly get a better read of this situation, and that will inform my approach.”
“The hon. Gentleman points to the important fact that the MCA CROs conduct their work alongside other emergency services and full-time employees of the MCA, and we need to take all those operational impacts into account. In response to another question, I said that I have instructed officials to determine what can be shared in relation to this process, and I will have more to say on that in due course.”
“The hon. Gentleman will know that my constituents and I are no strangers to Bridlington—a wonderful place to visit—and the CROs who work there to protect us must be given the tools they need to carry out their vital work. The broader review of the MCA will look at exactly the questions the hon. Gentleman raises. I will ensure he plays his part in that process, so that we come to the right answers.”
“The hon. Gentleman is right to point to the fact that there are a number of operative models for volunteers. I can assure him that I am looking at the long-term options to ensure that the CRO volunteering model is respected. We had an exchange in Westminster Hall about how the retained fire service model creates implications, but I understand that he is just pushing me to have a broad lens on what the solutions might be and I thank him for doing so.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising the tragic case of Grace, Sarah and Mark. My condolences to their families. He is right to say that this is not a theoretical question. We have an urgent need to address this issue now to ensure that CROs can do what we need them to do, which is carry out this phenomenal public service, and to retain safety and operational capacity across the country. He encourages me to go further and faster, and I have heard his call.”
“I have no doubt about the contribution that CROs in Selsey make, and I would be happy to engage with the hon. Lady’s constituents on this issue. She raises the particular issue that for rural communities the impacts might be felt especially keenly. That is why it is critical, as we continue to engage with CROs—I will continue to do so across the country—that we do so with the geographic lens she describes to make sure we can pick up all the operational complexities about what future options could mean.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his robust defence of CROs in his constituency and their incredible contribution to his local area. I have already confirmed to the House that I have instructed officials to determine what can be shared to make sure that he is able to carry out his role of holding me to account and representing CROs. In the meantime, I continue to the thank the CROs in his constituency, who he is such a powerful advocate for, for carrying out their essential work.”
“The hon. Lady is right to identify the fact that for CROs, remuneration is not the reason they volunteer, but it allows them to do that volunteering work. She points to a number of options around future models. I can confirm to her that a range of options has been considered. I have paused the meetings that are happening this week to create the space to allow CROs’ voices to be heard and for that conversation to continue.”
“The full impact on search and rescue capability and operational capacity has been considered through this process, but the hon. Lady is absolutely right to point to the fact that it is critical that we continue to interpret what CROs are telling us about what the impact will be, and that we rationalise that with how we project demand to flow over the summer and into September. I missed something in the previous question. On the very serious issue of whistleblowing, may I ask the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Vikki Slade) to please write to me about that specific instance? The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Marie Goldman), who I am currently answering, is right to raise these very important issues.”
“Works are on site and the Scott & Brassey public house has now opened in the restored first-class waiting room, with passengers enjoying a selection of great local ales. I often travel up to Glasgow, and I will avail myself of those great local ales as soon as I make contact with Carlisle station. To conclude, I assure my hon. Friend that the Government are firmly committed to honouring our railway heritage and improving services for passengers in rural communities across the north. She continues to be a resolute champion of the Settle-Carlisle railway, and the Government are committed to supporting her and her constituents as she continues to do so. Here is to the 150 years to come. Question put and agreed to.”
“Over the past two years, Network Rail has renewed around 200 km of overhead wires on the northern sections of the west coast main line. The work will improve reliability and deliver a more resilient and better-connected railway for passengers and freight. From the Settle-Carlisle line to the west coast main line, rail remains a vital part of connecting people, places and opportunities across the north and Scotland. My hon. Friend will recall the Department’s investment of £13.5 million as part of the £38 million Carlisle station gateway project, part funded by the borderlands inclusive growth deal and delivered in partnership between Network Rail and Cumberland council. The scheme provides a new public square to the rear of the station, an enhanced Court Square to the front, new lifts and increased car parking capacity.”
“Connecting the quarry by rail safeguards the future of the facility while reducing carbon emissions by taking lorries off the road. The 150th anniversary of the Settle-Carlisle line is an opportunity not only to celebrate extraordinary railway heritage, but to recognise wider investment to ensure that rail continues to support communities, connectivity and economic growth for generations to come. That investment includes the £323 million west coast north modernisation programme, which is the biggest improvement programme on the northern section of the west coast main line in decades. Network Rail and industry partners are working together, in the spirit of Great British Railways, to keep passengers moving while replacing ageing infrastructure, particularly the overhead line equipment that powers electric trains.”
“Feedback was incredibly positive, underlining findings from the rail watchdog, Transport Focus, that passengers prefer to stay on trains than take replacement bus services—that is certainly my preference, too—even if it involves a longer journey. Avanti hopes that the Settle-Carlisle route can continue to play an important role as a diversionary route over the next decade, especially when a significant volume of renewal activity is required on the northern section of the west coast main line. On infrastructure, Network Rail recently installed a footbridge with lifts at Horton-in-Ribblesdale station, allowing the closure of a high-risk level crossing and enabling a rail connection to the nearby quarry. The scheme was a mix of public and private investment, including a contribution from the quarry along with the Access for All fund.”
“Northern is also in discussions with train manufacturers to procure new train sets to replace the oldest trains in its fleet. The procurement of up to 450 new train sets will offer increased capacity as well as more accessible trains for passengers. In January and April this year, the Settle-Carlisle route played a critical role in supporting passengers during several closures of the west coast main line for engineering work. To avoid lengthy replacement bus journeys, Avanti West Coast operated its bi-mode Evero trains over the historical route—the first time in more than a decade it has been used for that purpose.”
“Friend’s constituents are able to partake in Northern’s offer of discounted tickets between Leeds, Settle and Carlisle, in honour of the 150th anniversary. But that does not mean there is not more work to do. Northern’s performance leaves room for improvement. We have an improvement plan that outlines the steps that the operator will take to improve reliability, with a target of 90% of all its trains arriving within three minutes of timetable and cancellations below 2%. I am pleased that the latest rail period results show that cancellations on the Leeds-Carlisle route were only 1.24%, but we need to work to improve punctuality, with 77% of trains arriving within three minutes of timetable. I look forward to working with my hon. Friend to improve services for both tourists in her remarkable area and her constituents.”
“The Railways Bill, of which I know my hon. Friend is a keen supporter, is progressing through Parliament and will create Great British Railways, which will bring track and train together under one publicly owned and accountable body to reduce fragmentation and improve decision making. GBR will work closely with local mayors and local authorities to make sure that services meet the needs of their areas and better integrate with other modes. I now turn to Northern Trains and its performance as the main operator on the Settle-Carlisle line. I am pleased with the introduction of the Yorkshire Dales Explorer, which links Greater Manchester and Lancashire to the Settle-Carlisle line and the dales. I also hope that my hon.”
“The company achieves so much for the benefit of communities along this historical line. I congratulate it on its most recent reaccreditation, awarded in recognition of its community-centred projects and services provided across the Yorkshire dales and Cumbria. I also pay tribute to the work of the Settle and Carlisle Railway Trust, which does so much valuable work in helping to restore, preserve and maintain the historical buildings and structures along the route, sparking the imagination and engagement of the public. The railways, of course, have changed so much since the first passenger trains on the Settle-Carlisle line, and I think it is appropriate to raise where this Government see the future of this railway. Rail reform will put passengers and customers back at the heart of the rail network.”
“I am pleased that there is such a strong community rail involvement with this historical line. Community rail is all about connecting communities to the railways, and at the heart of the community rail concept are community rail partnerships. The Settle-Carlisle Railway Development Company has done some wonderful work in this area. It has been an accredited community rail partnership for more than five years, working to support the local economy and benefit communities along the line. Its work includes organising station open days and art installations, running projects to support access to the railway and environmental initiatives with community organisations, as well as providing a range of services and products that benefit locals and visitors alike.”
“The Settle-Carlisle railway, which is celebrating its 150th anniversary, is, of course, one of the most historical and spectacularly scenic lines in the UK, with a long and colourful history of innovative engineering and dogged determination by the rail visionaries who fought to keep the line open against all the challenges it has faced—a legacy that my hon. Friend is certainly working hard to continue. I am delighted to assure my hon. Friend that the future of the line is indeed secure. The introduction of the Yorkshire Dales Explorer has brought thousands of new visitors to the line, investment at Horton-in-Ribblesdale station and secured the line’s invaluable role as a support route for the west coast main line. These all demonstrate the line’s ongoing importance to our network and this Government’s commitment to its future.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Efford. I heartily congratulate my very good and hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Ms Minns) on securing this debate on the anniversary of the Settle-Carlisle railway, and I thank other Members for their contributions. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her continued advocacy on behalf of her constituents. This is a moment of celebration of our railways, but it is also a time to reflect on the present and the future. I welcome the opportunity to address some of those points today.”
“They rescue people trapped on cliffs, stuck in mud or struggling in our seas. They also manage helicopter landing sites and assist the police in searching for missing people. They persevere through some of the most traumatic experiences imaginable, recovering people who it has not been possible to save in order to afford them proper dignity and respect. In short, they are some of the most selfless people in our country, and I personally thank them all for their service.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Alec. I am beyond grateful to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) for bringing this debate to the Chamber; I am sure you agree, Sir Alec, that it has been a useful one informed by honest exchanges. I want to be clear with hon. Members and with the CROs who I know will be watching the debate about how we got to this moment and what happens next. For those observing the debate who might be wondering exactly who we have been talking about, let me briefly explain who coastguard rescue officers are. Put simply, they are the people who are there when we need them most. They are the modern face of a volunteering tradition that goes back to the early 20th century. CROs could rescue us or our loved ones if we are trapped in rising water.”
“I know that there has been a debate about whether the engagement goes far enough, and about the character of the consultation, but for the benefit of the record, there have been two town halls, a virtual meeting, a recorded video and five updates on CRS online, alongside a pattern of regular engagement on other issues such as equipment assurance, training, exercising and post-incident follow-up. Another important issue that was raised is the modelling of the potential impacts. An impact assessment combined incident demand, CRS survey data, demographic and employment information, and financial analysis to identify where potential reductions in CRO availability are most likely to occur.”
“Members should be cognisant of. Retained fire service people are employees; it is important to bear in mind that they have contractual limitations, such as to live a certain distance from the station. They also have to respond within five to seven minutes, depending on the station, to an emergency. That would create very a different system around mutuality of obligation for the CRS. Those are important considerations to bear in mind. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland asked specifically what engagements have taken place, so I will list them for him.”
“Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) asked a specific question about HMRC disturbance allowances. I am happy to take that away and write to her on the specifics. My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Anna Gelderd) is right to point to the fact that, although CROs work on a volunteer operating model, these are people responding to emergency situations who wear the badge of a Government agency and do phenomenal work, and they should be perceived as such. In that sense, she is right to say that it does not do justice to the scale of their contribution. A number of points were made about how the retained firefighter model could map on to CRO status. The work of retained firefighters has a number of characteristics that might cause severe complications for CROs were the model to be mapped across, which hon.”
“We take complaints incredibly seriously and have well-established processes and policies in place to review and investigate concerns. He mentioned sharing some anonymous testimony with me, and I would be grateful if he did so. My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) mentioned death in service and injury benefit. The CRS injury benefit compensation scheme is for volunteers. It provides and, importantly, will continue to provide compensation for loss of earnings where a volunteer member of the CRS is injured or develops an illness or disease as a result of an authorised duty. That includes provision for compensation for dependants in the event of death. I am glad that my hon. Friend has allowed me to put that point on the record. My hon.”
“Members across the Chamber, and I would be grateful if they could share those instances with me so that I can form a fuller picture of those experiences when they occur. The right hon. Member spoke specifically about the impact on his rural and island constituency—a point that was made eloquently by many Members of Parliament who represent Scottish constituencies. A CRO in this country volunteers an average of three and a half hours a month, but many will volunteer 35 hours a month, especially in rural or island constituencies where they have to respond to the frequent call-outs that the right hon. Member described. I am very cognisant of that disparity, but also of the differences in experience that underpin how CROs are approaching this matter. The right hon. Member raised serious points about consultation and engagement from the MCA.”
“I thank the right hon. Member for his contribution and for the points he made earlier, which I will address. I am pleased to say that I have met the GMB and spoken to it about the increase in its membership resulting from this decision, and I am happy to work with it on an ongoing basis. The right hon. Member’s suggestion speaks to a recognition of worker status. I will identify later what I believe are some drawbacks of that approach, but he is welcome to intervene again at that point to address anything else. I want to address some of the specific points that have been made. First, let me pick up on what the right hon. Member said about not being allowed to meet in his coastguard centre, which I find very concerning. That was echoed in a couple of comments by hon.”
“To be clear on what the change could mean, worker designation could push CROs into new tax brackets or put them in breach of primary employment contracts, if they are not allowed to undertake other paid work. We have worked hard and expressly to avoid those threats to people continuing to work as CROs. The judgment clarified the law, which must now be upheld.”
“I note that such an arrangement was not, and is not, typical for the voluntary sector. Although not all CROs chose to claim that remuneration, because the MCA had provided regular payments to CROs following call outs and because the remuneration was beyond reimbursement for their expenses, the court deemed them to be workers under the Employment Rights Act 1996. That judgment has fundamentally changed the nature of the role of CROs. Those who had signed up on the basis that they were volunteers and could be a CRO alongside their primary employment are now suddenly classed as workers, meaning that they could be subject to liabilities and responsibilities that they did not sign up for.”
“Three of them stated that they did so because of the change, although that is not to say that others did not do so, nor that they have not reported it—I would not want to argue that. I hope that that information is useful. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Sir Ashley Fox) and others made broader points about operational resilience. I reassure them that His Majesty’s Coastguard has contingency plans and measures in place and continues to draw on the full UK search and rescue system, including aviation assets, the RNLI and independent lifeboats. Turning back to the situation we face today, as many Members will know, on 14 January the Court of Appeal handed down a judgment that changed the status of CROs. For many years, the MCA provided the option of hourly remuneration to recognise the impact of such important work.”
“The hon. Gentleman raises an important point about CROs across the United Kingdom feeling that their voice is heard. I will take that point away and ensure that it informs my engagement going forward, but, for the benefit of the House, I want to speak a little more about the modelling of potential impacts. The risk assessment also focused on which workforce groups may be most affected and where any resulting loss of capacity would pose the greatest risk to operational resource and service delivery. The individual circumstances of CROs are diverse, and it would not be possible to model all the possible ways that 3,000 people could respond to the changes. Since the announcement was made, 29 CROs have left the service.”
“Any alternative would carry a high likelihood of further legal challenge and could still be judged to be creating a wage/work bargain. Any carve-out would require new and complex primary legislation that would take far longer to implement than the immediate action that the judgment demands. I sincerely wish there were, but there is no simple solution to this situation.”
“I am committed to continuing to engage with CROs, trade unions and Members of Parliament on that important issue. The risks I just outlined around worker status exist now and it is important to consider that ahead of any implementation date, irrespective of whether that is in September, later in the year or at some other point. I will come back to the specific point about timing at the end of my remarks. If we believe that CROs should retain the right to remain as volunteers, the existing model of remuneration cannot legally stay the same. I reassure Members that my officials and I have worked tirelessly but, regrettably, at this stage we have been unable to identify any legally robust option to continue payments beyond out-of-pocket expenses.”
“I have heard the hon. Gentleman’s point. I will have a conversation with my officials about what is appropriate to share with MPs, who I know are doing their level best to represent their constituents in this difficult matter.”
“I hope that I have gone some way to addressing those concerns, but it is important to recognise that the alternative—moving to a worker model—would require a fundamentally different model and would likely lead to CROs having to leave the service, which would not in itself necessarily guarantee response capacity.”
“Based on operational judgments and the desire to continue to preserve the important volunteer model, the recommendation was to move to a pure volunteer system that paid expenses, so that CROs did not have to choose between being a CRO and their primary employment. That was never a perfect decision, but to do nothing was not an option. As that decision has been communicated to CROs, it is only natural too that it would not and could not be a perfect fit for all who serve, which has been powerfully articulated today. In the time since the decision was made, I have listened to and reflected on the points made by colleagues, including during this debate. I understand the very real concerns that have been raised about the potential impact of this change on the operational capacity of the coastguard rescue service.”
“Those considerations and how they would affect the lives of CROs are not immaterial, although I know that the hon. Gentleman is not saying they are. It is my understanding, although I am happy to be corrected if this is not the case, that to transpose that relevant scheme into a wholly different part of the voluntary sector would have primary legislative implications. We would need to work through them; it could not be done simply by wishing to do it. I have set out why the MCA was compelled to accept the court’s judgment. Having done so, it needed to take immediate action to comply.”
“Member for Orkney and Shetland for allowing these issues to be so comprehensively discussed, and fellow Members for their excellent points. I assure them that the debate has resonated strongly with me. I will reflect on what has been raised and I will consider in the long term how our coastguard volunteers can be recognised. I have heard the deep concerns of the CRO community, and I want to carry on working with them, trade unions and colleagues across the House in the future to work through these issues. I thank everybody for their contributions today.”
“I have given way plenty of times. This is a complex challenge that we must all work through together. We do not want employers to be unable to continue to support their employees to volunteer. We do not want to see CROs tangled in a mire of employment obligations that make the choice of going to a rescue a difficult one. We all understand that the court judgment changed the legal status of CROs, and that treating people who signed up to be volunteers as workers does not necessarily solve the problems they face, and in fact could create many new ones, but we also all recognise the tremendous contributions of these volunteers. We have heard powerful testimonies about the sacrifices that they make day in, day out. I thank the right hon.”
“Last year, we ran a call for evidence to understand ports’ current and future energy needs; over the coming months, we will publish a summary of those responses and set out our next steps. For centuries, ports have supported the movement of people, goods and ideas. They have helped to build the foundations of our national prosperity. Today, they continue to drive growth, support jobs and create opportunities in all four corners of the United Kingdom. Supporting the continued success of our ports is one of the Government’s top priorities, and we will keep working with and listening to industry as we shape the right policy environment for them to thrive. I once again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth for securing this debate, and I thank all hon. Members who made such considered contributions.”