Michelle Scrogham
MP for Barrow and Furness · Labour · United Kingdom
“I welcome that this Government are prioritising the delivery of our nuclear deterrent, including investment in not only the current but the all-important future submarine programmes. The shadow Secretary of State said it was too little, too late.”
“We have talked about the changes after 2014. Might we also look back to what was referenced earlier, under the 2010 coalition Government, where the blame seemed to very suddenly shift to the Liberal Democrats? It was a joint decision to delay what was happening with our submarines. I will take no arguments from the hon.”
“That approach does not save money; it stores up costs and leads to delays, inconsistencies and, ultimately, weaker capability. Nowhere is that clearer than in my constituency of Barrow and Furness, the heart of our sovereign submarine building capability.”
“It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Wiltshire (Danny Kruger), mostly because it is such a rarity—like hen’s teeth—to see our Reform colleagues in the Chamber for these debates. I turn to new clause 10, tabled by the Conservative party.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. As he rightly says, nobody felt that more than we did in my constituency. I agree that we have to invest properly in the DIP, but we must also ensure that the priorities in the DIP are right.”
“Investment in defence supports skilled jobs, apprenticeships and innovation across the country. This Armed Forces Bill demonstrates the Government’s commitment to strengthening our services through improving support for personnel and their families, updating service justice arrangements and ensuring that our armed forces are better equipp…”
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“It is staggering to hear of yet another serious data breach under the previous Conservative Government. Does the Secretary of State— [ Interruption. ] Conservative Members can bicker from their Benches, but it was clearly a mistake made when they were in power. Does the Secretary of State agree that we have inherited a chaotic and poorly managed system, and can he tell us what systems have been put in place to correct that? We must not see more systems with officials emailing an Excel spreadsheet—it absolutely beggars belief. Can he confirm that this will never happen again?”
“I recently met the mother of Jaysley Beck, who tragically took her own life after being sexually assaulted and abused within the services. I was really impressed by her mother’s strength and her campaign. Does the Minister agree that the Bill will give more powers to family members, and that maybe we can avoid these tragic incidents in future?”
“I am sure that the whole House is in no doubt about just how proud we are in Barrow and Furness to be building the submarines that keep our nation safe. The commitment to expanding this country’s submarine programme, with up to 12 SSN-AUKUS boats to be built in our shipyard, is the start of the next chapter of that illustrious career. Does my right hon. Friend agree that defence spending under this Labour Government means investment in British companies, in local supply chains and in the very fabric of our communities?”
“Q7. I thank the Prime Minister for recently visiting the now royal port of Barrow in my constituency to lay the keel for the new Dreadnought-class submarines. He will have seen how proud we are to build our nuclear deterrent, which keeps us safe. As we move forward with our plan for change, does he agree that Barrow and Furness could provide a blueprint for the whole country, with defence investment creating jobs, growth and prosperity in communities across the UK?”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. We have had a long-standing relationship with the US, which is our closest security ally. Does he agree that our continued work on AUKUS will help to deepen and strengthen that for all the nations involved?”
“The infrastructure, knowledge and tools exist; what we now need is the determination to act on them. I understand that regulatory change takes time, but we must be clear in our direction of travel. The continued use of dogs in research is increasingly difficult to defend in the light of alternatives, shifting public opinion and our broader responsibilities under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, as well as scientific best practice. We have the opportunity to show leadership on this issue by supporting innovation, upholding ethical standards and responding to the concerns of hundreds of thousands of our constituents. It is time to set a clear path towards ending the use of dogs in research and to invest in alternatives that will define a more humane and modern scientific future.”
“Those approaches are not only more humane, but frequently more accurate and cost-effective, begging the question: why have we not moved on this issue already? Despite advances in biomedical research, dogs continue to be used in procedures that often cause significant suffering. They may be force-fed substances for toxicity tests, restrained for long periods and ultimately euthanised—as almost every Member has mentioned. Those are not minor interventions; they are often serious intrusions on an animal’s welfare, and they occur even as the scientific merit of such tests is increasingly being questioned. While the Government have stated their commitment to phasing out animal testing where scientifically possible, many would argue that we have already reached that point, at least in the case of dogs.”
“As with most dogs, Charlie is not just a pet; he is a member of my family, alongside my two cats, Merlot and Jags—I hesitate to add that I did not name the first cat. It is precisely that connection that makes the idea of using dogs like Charlie in laboratory experiments impossible to justify. However, the case should not be made only on ethical and emotional grounds, but on the grounds of practicality and scientific validity. A growing body of evidence points to the limited translational value of data from dogs, as we have heard, in predicting human responses to drugs and chemicals. It is particularly concerning when we discover the pace of innovation in non-animal methods, including organ-on-a-chip technology, advanced cell cultures and AI-driven modelling systems.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Jardine. The use of dogs in scientific and regulatory procedures is an issue that rightly draws strong public interest, with over 235,000 people signing the petition that we are debating. It is not just a small outcry, but a clear signal that action is needed. Like so many other dogs, my much-loved working cocker spaniel Charlie is a clear example of how sentient and intelligent dogs truly are—and I am sure that he would want me to put on the record today that he is a very handsome dog. I was also thrilled to see Jennie enter the room today. We can feel the response in the room when a dog enters the Chamber. They bring more to our lives. Dogs form deep emotional bonds, show remarkable sensitivity and learn with incredible ease.”
“Communities such as mine in Barrow and Furness feel very acutely the failures of the previous Government, as they left us in a dreadful state. Does the Chancellor agree that it is through this Government’s commitment to, and funding in, Barrow and Furness and our defence sector that we can transform things on the ground, which will mean that Barrow can be a blueprint for how the defence pound can be better spent across our constituencies?”
“There is still time to deliver a fair and equitable compensation package for these women. This is the time to right this wrong. The way forward is continued collaboration, where Ministers keep the door open to those who have legitimate concerns and wish to find a fair resolution. Ongoing dialogue is essential to ensuring that the affected women are heard and that a fair and just solution is found. There are many WASPI women in my constituency. I pledged to back those women, and I will stand by that pledge until justice is served.”
“This mess was not created by this Government but, as in all too many cases right now, they have been left with the difficult task of clearing it up. There is no easy solution, but the findings of the ombudsman’s report provided a critical assessment of the way the previous Government handled the pension age changes. The report confirmed what many of us had long suspected: that the communication of these changes was inadequate and misleading. Those findings underline the need for a fair and swift resolution to ensure that the WASPI women are not left to bear the consequences of these failures alone. I commend the excellent work of the all-party parliamentary group on state pension inequality for women, and encourage Members across all parties to continue to work with it. It remains a vital forum for dialogue and understanding.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank the hon. Member for South Cotswolds (Dr Savage) for opening the debate. I first want to acknowledge the tireless campaigning of the Barrow and Furness WASPI women. They have worked tenaciously to advocate for fairness and justice for all those affected. WASPI women did not ask for this change, and they had no say in how it was implemented, but they are the ones left to cope with the consequences: the financial strain, the anxiety and the uncertainty. The issue is not about opposing pension reform. No one denies that we need a sustainable and fair pension system, but we must recognise that the way these changes were carried out was deeply unfair to those who had no ability to prepare. It is also important to recognise the context in which the Government find themselves.”
“At the autumn Budget, the Government announced a range of support measures for small businesses, including vital support for the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors. Will the Minister confirm the measures being taken to support the independent and important craft brewing and distillery sector in Cumbria?”
“T10. The previous Government’s mismanagement has left our flood defences unfit for purpose, which has a huge impact on my constituents. Will the Chancellor set out what the Government are doing to increase community resilience against flooding and coastal erosion?”
“Barrow and Furness has always been ahead of the times in high-skilled engineering. In the light of the Prime Minister’s historic commitment to raise defence spending—the biggest increase since the end of the cold war—I invite him to visit and see the many small and medium-sized enterprises who can support this vital supply chain. Does the Prime Minister agree that investing in those businesses will not only deliver our nuclear deterrent but improve security and the economy for us all?”
“Like me, my hon. Friend is a passionate advocate for apprenticeships, which play a huge role in Barrow and Furness and are vital for the workforce needed for the defence sector. BAE has an incredible 94% completion rate, whereas the national average is 51%. Does he agree that the Government’s much-needed reforms are vital for improving access to good, skilled jobs in growing industries such as the defence sector. What thought has been given to improving the national completion rate?”
“My constituent, Sharron Huddleston, has been campaigning after tragically losing her daughter Caitlin in 2017. She was one of those children on rural roads who tragically lost her life as a passenger in a young novice’s car. Sharon founded the Forget-me-not Families Uniting group. They campaign for restrictions on the number of passengers that young drivers can carry in the car, and on night-time driving. What haunts me is the fact that had we listened to people campaigning on this issue more than 40 years ago, Caitlin would still be here today. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is time we looked at this issue seriously and put in place restrictions to protect young drivers and other people on the road?”
“Over recent years, we have seen a large increase in Russian activity of this type, and it is clear that the need for subsurface protection is critical and increasing. The UK sub fleet is built at BAE Systems in my constituency, and we play a vital role in countering this threat. Will the Secretary of State comment on the support that the Government will continue to provide to ensure that the submarine fleet continues to play this central role in the defence of our nation?”
“T3. In Barrow and Furness, we often joke that we live at the end of the longest cul-de-sac in the UK. The A590 and the A595 are lifelines for people in my constituency. Our future growth, the nuclear deterrent and the emergency services depend on the roads working well, but we are often cut off. Will the Minister therefore confirm the Government’s commitment to investing in the improved reliability of such critical pieces of infrastructure?”
“To refer back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North said, the amendment does say that the commissioner’s staff “must” include a King’s counsel. That would effectively tie the hands of the commissioner, firmly setting that budget. I would much rather that they had flexibility, so that they could choose who they wanted to serve within their staff; should they need a KC, they would be very welcome to get one. Including that they “must” would eat that budget, which could be used elsewhere if needed.”
“On Eva’s website, she describes herself as “the ombudsman for the armed forces”. It is simply that the title “parliamentary commissioner” fits with their legal framework. There are also some interesting differences. Eva has had these powers for a long time and uses them very well. However, she does not have the oversight of service complaints that I have, so this would be an extended remit compared with the German model. It is brilliant to draw inspiration from it. Being members of those communities together, we are always looking at best practice in other countries. There are necessarily some differences in this country, but it is certainly a good starting point.”
“Can I ask for your views on the German armed forces commissioner? Obviously, this measure has been modelled on that. Mariette Hughes: You can, of course. I know Dr Eva Högl quite well. We are both members of the International Conference of Ombuds Institutions for the Armed Forces, which is a mouthful, so I will say ICOAF. We have a conference every year. She is an absolutely incredible person and has done really good things with that office. It is an interesting model for this to be based on. There are some differences that we have to be alive to. The key one for me—apologies if this comes up later—is around the terminology. Dr Högl is the Commissioner for the Armed Forces. Germany does not have a fully established ombudsman scheme in the same way that the UK does. We have 22 established schemes under the Ombudsman Association.”
“Q Do you think the German model will translate to the UK? Mariette Hughes: I think we have to build our own model; we have to look at what our key issues are. Germany is a different landscape and a different framework and has been operating for a huge number of years. We cannot just pick it up and start doing things the way they do. We need to start with what our key focuses are and how we think we can have the most impact and scale up operations, and go from that. We might end up looking at things slightly differently. A lot of Dr Högl’s focus is on investment in defence and pushing for bigger budgets. Does that necessarily tie in with what we are seeing about the welfare of service personnel? There may be issues that cross over into that, but we would have a slightly different focus from the German parliamentary commissioner.”
“Q What should we be learning from the German model to make improvements here? Mariette Hughes: For me, the best thing from the German model that I would like us to learn from and take forward is the voice that Dr Högl has within the German Parliament. She has a permanent seat; she sits in all the sessions. I am not saying that the commissioner should have that, but they should certainly have the ability to lay reports directly or have them laid in the House so that more focus is placed on this. There is absolutely no point having all this access and information and creating the reports if they do not go anywhere and nobody talks about them. That level of parliamentary oversight and visibility is what we should mirror from the German system.”
“Q Do you have any concerns about the transition from the ombudsman to the new commissioner? Abby Dryden: I do not have any specific concerns about that. I would generally have concerns about any change in process, as the shortcomings of a process can sometimes be identified quite easily, but it can be quite difficult to create something in its place that functions effectively from the start. I would just be concerned about the transition, but I would not have any specific concerns.”
“Q Do you think anything is needed to ensure a successful handover? Abby Dryden: Numerous things are probably needed to ensure success. I cannot comment on those things directly, as I do not have enough experience to comment reasonably.”
“What is making a real difference, and what is the depth and scale? Getting in behind those issues is where the Armed Forces Commissioner could bring real value. Galvanising all the various bodies externally, and across defence and across Government, to co-ordinate and co-operate to do that could be quite a significant and positive change.”
“Collette Musgrave: Just to build on my colleagues’ comments, I think many—not all, but many—of the issues that face service personnel and their families, and that impact positively or negatively on their decisions about whether to join and stay in the armed forces, are fairly well known and have been looked at in the past from a number of angles. As Sarah and Maria say, there is a rich level of evidence already in place. It is a question of using that, but really trying to understand the scale and depth of the issues. The issues are all well known, and there are many of us who will get behind a certain one at a certain time, or there will be an external event that prompts examination. But it is a question of understanding, across that broad range, which ones are really impacting rather than being an irritation.”
“If we were to go for a scattergun approach and ask several charities, they would have an opinion. However, is that helpful? The families federations work very hard to provide evidence so that we can find the themes and find out what matters most. That is not to say that we discount other things that may be in the margin, but I think it is so important to have an evidence base on which to make decisions. Otherwise we could just go for a scattergun approach, tie ourselves up in knots and jump on things that perhaps are important to some, but are they as important for others? We need a certain amount of prioritisation, and that is exactly what we have been doing for a number of years. The opportunity to build on that and funnel some of the information upwards for decision making is most welcome.”
“There is a rich pattern of data across the sector—the third sector that deals with families—that could be brought to bear in terms of identifying exactly where the big issues are that the Armed Forces Commissioner could shine a light on, perhaps leaning in with Government Departments. The change in this Bill is the report to Parliament. The armed forces covenant also provides for a report to Parliament every year. That is not necessarily independent; it is Government reporting on themselves. The legislation gives a layer of independence. If we can use this mechanism and get behind it to help the commissioner to have the evidence they need to enact change, that is certainly how we see our role and work with the commissioner’s office. Sarah Clewes: Just to add to that, I think evidence is absolutely key.”
“Q How do you envisage this Bill improving service life? You mentioned the importance of communications and getting the information to service personnel. How do you see your role in that? Maria Lyle: I was thinking about that element beforehand. It depends on how the process pans out, in terms of how strategic or how tactical the role of the commissioner’s office is. We want this Bill to be a really helpful change in how military families and personnel are supported, so we want there to be as useful a working relationship with the Armed Forces Commissioner as possible. For example, we would be really keen to share with the commissioner on a regular basis the information and evidence that we receive all year.”
“My expectation, however, is that there would be regular meetings between the commissioner and the variety of stakeholder groups that operate in the wider armed forces community, partly to check in on issues, but also, importantly, to check in on the progress of their recommendations and how they are being implemented. A key part of this process is shining a spotlight on an issue, and in my mind it is not sufficient to say, “Here is an issue,” and just present it to Parliament. There needs to be an understanding of what happens next with it, and that is where that interaction would probably be most found.”
“Q It has all gone very quiet on the national veterans commissioner. All the devolved Governments have one; when will we get one here? Luke Pollard: The Minister for Veterans and People has been looking at the system and will be taking steps to see what the most appropriate representation or system to put in place is. We inherited a system that has national veterans commissioners in some locations, but not all. Al Carns will look at that in due course. We have deliberately not specified the interaction between any established commissioner for veterans or veterans group and the commissioner in the Bill, because we want the Armed Forces Commissioner to make an independent judgment.”
“I suspect what will actually happen in most cases is, once the secondary legislation that details that has been published, a ways of working approach will be established. I cannot really imagine any Armed Forces Commissioner having a remit or operations that step outside that clearly defined general service welfare lane, but if there are concerns, there is also a power in the Bill for the Secretary of State to exercise that caution on visits, especially if there is a national security consideration. We would not expect that, given the welfare focus, but it is a proportionate safeguarding power, just in case.”
“The powers on national security that we have included in the Bill come from the importance of making sure that in the proper exercising of their duties, the commissioner is focusing on general service welfare matters. What we do not want to see the commissioner doing, as you heard when the current SCOAF presented earlier, is looking at the secret squirrel elements. I do not want them looking into the intelligence services or secret squirrel locations, such as the operational design of missions. That all sits outside their remit; their remit is solely focused on general service welfare. The ability to define that via secondary legislation is a prudent and proportionate power that we have in the Bill.”
“Q The commissioner can access unannounced any of the sites within the UK, but the Secretary of State has the power to restrict access. How will that work in practice? Luke Pollard: When the commissioner’s office is stood up, there will be a ways of working agreement between the commissioner and the single services about how things work. I am not expecting the Armed Forces Commissioner to use their unannounced powers frequently. If you look at the German model, the armed forces commissioner in Germany spends about a third of her year undertaking visits, of which nearly all are planned. The ability to make an unannounced visit in the commissioner’s toolbox makes those powers even more prominent, because if an issue is reaching a certain threshold, they can decide to make an unannounced visit.”
“I am sure the Leader of the House will agree that patients, public and staff should be properly consulted when significant changes are being made to local NHS services, and that the NHS makes better decisions when it listens properly to the views of patients and the public, but unfortunately that has not been the case in my constituency recently. Significant changes are being proposed at Furness general hospital with no consultation at all. May we please have a debate to consider the NHS’s duty to consult and the importance of listening to the views of local people when it is making decisions?”
“Critical care at Furness general hospital in Barrow has been temporarily downgraded, meaning that those in most need of the highest level of care are now exposed to potentially life-threatening delays during a 50-mile transfer on difficult roads. Will the Minister please look at this worrying decision by the University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay NHS foundation trust and do everything to enable the reopening of this service as soon as possible?”
“The Secretary of State already knows how proud we are in Barrow and Furness to be building our Astute and Dreadnought submarines, and to be part of the AUKUS programme. I know from our discussions that this Government understand that we need a cross-departmental approach to support the delivery of the AUKUS deal in Barrow and Furness. Will he comment on the importance of that broad approach, which aims to make Barrow an even better place in which to live, work and raise a family, and will he meet me to discuss that further?”
“If I was a gambling woman, I would bet that I am the only MP to be married to a lighthouse keeper—I am hoping the weather is okay back home, because he is sat in the Gallery now. [ Laughter. ] My better half is the senior lighthouse keeper in charge of the Sir John Barrow monument, a copy of the Eddystone lighthouse that stands on top of Hoad hill and welcomes the people of Furness home. Finally, I encourage all hon. Members to come and visit Barrow and Furness—but with a fair warning that several of them will, of course, feel obliged to return to this Chamber and correct the record on which is the best constituency.”
“Our local community groups and third sector organisations have proved vital in recent years, and I am a strong believer that most problems have a solution at grassroots level, through community groups such as the Roxy Collective, Drop Zone, Women’s Community Matters, the Ulverston Resilience Group, Community Solutions, and Furness Refugee Support to name just a few—or Love Barrow Families, whose work is so life changing for some that they return as volunteers to give that same gift to others. In my role as MP for Barrow and Furness, I want to give their voice more power. I want to bring community groups together with residents and businesses, big and small, as that is how community works at its best, for the betterment of everyone in it. Many MPs make unique claims in their maiden speeches.”
“Next week, our Lib Dem council will decide the fate of one of the busiest libraries in Cumbria—the last remaining community space that is free to use, where many community groups ensure that a vital safety net is provided, and where no matter what someone’s background or financial position is, they have a safe place to learn and achieve. I hope that the council will listen to the 3,000-plus people who have signed a petition to save it, and decide to work with me and local businesses to secure its future.”
“He wrote the report that became the basis for what we now know as the mutiny on the Bounty. He was the last man to shake Lord Nelson’s hand as he departed on HMS Victory for Trafalgar, and was a great promotor of Arctic voyages of discovery, with many places around the globe now named after him, including Barrow strait, Cape Barrow and Point Barrow in Alaska, but oddly not Barrow-in-Furness. I have fought long and hard to give a voice to our residents as their councillor and mayor, and I have often been angered by decisions that cost our communities dearly.”
“Dalton, the ancient capital of Furness, was birthplace and early home of famous painter George Romney, and Tommy Johnson, the third-highest goal scorer for Man City, who made five appearances for England and scored in every single match. That might be a bit too far back for most to remember, because he was born in 1901, but other Barrow-born football heroes are Emlyn Hughes, whose statue now graces Abbey Road in Barrow, and Georgia Stanway, who I believe is now overdue her own statue for her achievements in the England squad. While we are on football, I have to say good luck to the Barrow Bluebirds in their upcoming match against Chelsea—you have great football genes on your side, so let’s have it! Sir John Barrow, famous son of Ulverston, became the second secretary to the admiralty—to you and me, that is in charge of the Navy.”
“Those 20 years, through recessions, online shopping, out-of-town retail and covid, were a steep learning curve, but one that I would not change for the world. Our high streets are one of my passions. They are the very heart of our communities and Britain’s biggest employer—worthy of nurturing, protecting and revitalising. I very much welcome our plans and the opportunity to support them in this Government. We have many famous sons and daughters from Barrow and Furness. Stan Laurel, comedy giant and half of the duo Laurel and Hardy, was born in Ulverston. My apologies to my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Sam Rushworth); his town has been trying to claim Stan Laurel for years, but he was definitely an Ulverston lad.”
“Morecambe bay and the Duddon estuaries are our playgrounds, and my hometown of Ulverston, which earlier this year was reported to be one of the most vibrant towns in the UK, is known as the festival town, and has well and truly earned its title. There are festivals for everything from walking, Walkfest, to printing, Printfest; comedy and music, with a tenuous link to Laurel and Hardy’s “Another Fine Mess”, Finefest; and my favourite, the one I help to organise each year, Dickensian. The hashtag for that one made headline news in Japan, and I will leave Members to work it out for themselves. [ Laughter. ] I have been incredibly lucky that I was able to take time out when my children were little and build a business on the high street with my sister.”
“Our coastline is home to many areas of natural beauty and protected habitats—from Ravenglass, where people can explore on a mini steam train, visit Muncaster Castle with its rich history and birds of prey, or enjoy the truly unspoiled area that is the western Lake district; all the way down to Walney Island nature reserve, with its adorable grey seals and stunning views, not least of which is its view of the island of Piel, which hosts its own king no less. Tradition holds that the landlord of the sole pub, while sitting in an ancient chair, carrying a sword and wearing a helmet, is crowned by the pouring of alcohol over their head. Shout out to John Murphy, our local historian and former Mayor of Barrow, for his fantastic walking tours to Piel.”
“We have been world leaders in ironworks, with the founders of Barrow exporting railways to the world. They understood that, for a secure economy, we needed more than one industry and created the jute manufacturing business that became a world leader in its own right. The ironworks eventually became a shipyard where we now build our nuclear deterrent, the most complex piece of engineering on the planet, and we are the only place in the UK that is capable of doing that. We protect our nation—a source of great pride to us locally—with the industry that is the backbone of the economy in Barrow and Furness, and many other towns across the UK, in a supply chain of tens of thousands of jobs.”
“I could not be prouder to be not only the first local to be elected as MP for Barrow and Furness, but the first ever female to hold this very privileged position. I started my career in banking way back in the ’80s, but found very quickly that my passion would take me elsewhere. With an insuppressible drive to call out injustice, my mouth soon ensured that I was elected as our union rep, and within a couple of years I was asked to take on that role for the north-west region. I will never forget how I felt when my manager took me aside to tell me that, if I accepted that responsibility, I could kiss goodbye to my career in banking. I did not need time to think about it; I took the job. There is nothing in this world more likely to make me dig my heels in than a bully. My constituency is well known for many things.”