Torsten Bell
MP for Swansea West · Labour · United Kingdom
“That is a very important question. We need to make sure that those who will retire in 2050 can look forward to the same kind of comfortable retirements that many—not all, but many—of today’s pensioners enjoy, and the honest answer is that we are not on track for that at the moment. This Government are taking a two-stage approach.”
“My hon. Friend and I have discussed this issue on a number of occasions, and she has been an important campaigner for pensioners in her constituency who have been affected by it.”
“The hon. Member will know that a judicial review claim has been filed, and that we cannot comment on live litigation. There are legitimate views on raises in the state pension age, particularly the 2011 acceleration put in place by the coalition Government, but the investigation that is being considered by the Parliamentary and Health Ser…”
“My hon. Friend is a consistent campaigner on these issues in this place and in our regular meetings, and I always learn something from those conversations. I am not going forward with exactly the suggestion he brings forward, but I agree that there is more we can do, not least to provide clarity for trustees.”
“I am incredibly hopeful that this Government are doing a much better job than the previous Government in supporting pensioners, not only by driving up the state pension, but by getting on with the much delayed reforms to our defined-contribution pension system, which the previous Government left on ice.”
“I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s point, and we need to fund the NHS to stop letting down older generations. Taxes have consequences that affect the whole population, including pensioners.”
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“I hear the right hon. Member’s point. I am not going to comment on individual legal cases, obviously, but the basis of the distinction at 1997 reflects the decisions taken in 1995 by a previous Conservative Administration to introduce statutory indexation, but not wanting to do that for accruals that had already taken place. The Pensions Act 1995 brought in statutory indexation from 1997 onwards. We can recognise the underlying reasons for this situation—not retrospectively changing the basis of scheme rules—while sharing Members’ huge frustrations with it. It is why I continue to encourage trustees and sponsoring employers to think carefully about the effect of inflation on member benefits when making decisions.”
“Members who have participated in this debate, but also to Members who are not here, but have consistently raised this issue with me. In the coming weeks, I will be meeting other Members who have asked me to discuss this with them and their constituents. It is important that we have the chance to discuss these important matters, and I am glad that we have done so. Question put and agreed to.”
“I will take that away to consider what more we can do to make sure there is an open consultation and people are clear about what is going on and how decisions are taken. Secondly, given the importance of this matter, I recognise that it would be beneficial to develop a clearer understanding of the circumstances, particularly in relation to the issue that has been raised about well-funded schemes are choosing actively not to award discretionary increases, particularly where employer consent is the binding constraint. The Pensions Regulator has been considering how to build its evidence base in this area, and I will talk to it in the weeks and months ahead about what more we can do about that. I will finish by paying tribute to my hon. Friend and the other right hon. and hon.”
“Employers and trustees are thinking through a world where they suddenly find themselves with a surplus, and in many cases are thinking about what that means for the future of their pension scheme. These reforms recognise trustees’ and members’ understandable frustration with the status quo, but also the diverse circumstances of DB schemes. Let me end with two reflections on the wider contributions that Members have made, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham, who has brought us here today. First, whatever the scheme rules, there is no excuse for employers not to fully engage with trustees on these decisions and questions, and I have too often heard from members and trustees that employers have not done so.”
“There is not nothing we can do, and the Pension Schemes Bill will make a difference, particularly for the kind of schemes being raised tonight—those which have a surplus today. The decision to release surplus will remain entirely with the trustees. That will place them in a better position to negotiate benefit improvements as part of any release. It is entirely for trustees, working with the employer, to determine how members may benefit. Let me be really clear: if trustees wish to insist on discretionary pre-1997 indexation as a condition for surplus release, they will be entitled to do so. I expect that many will, given the discussions I have had with them. We are obviously in the early stages of that Bill; it has not passed through Parliament yet.”
“My hon. Friend has been a powerful campaigner on this issue. I recognise her point about situations where there was a habit of paying discretionary increases in the past. On the question of what we do about it, let me come to the Government’s approach, and then I will perhaps offer two reflections specifically on the points that have been raised on which we might want to continue making progress, even if I cannot satisfy all the demands for instantaneous change today. So, what are we doing? The reforms introduced in the Pension Schemes Bill will give more trustees of such schemes the flexibility to release surplus. That will help shape the balance of power between trustees and employers when it comes to well-funded schemes.”
“Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden), for opening this debate. The Government recognise that fuel costs matter enormously to people right across the country. Fluctuations in pump prices cause fluctuations in working people’s bank balances. The effects are real and, as we have heard, widespread; about 80% of us drive each week. That is why the Government have already taken action to ensure that fuel remains affordable. In November’s Budget, we extended the temporary 5p per litre cut to fuel duty for a further five months. Additionally, we cancelled the inflation-linked increase planned for 2026-27. Our fuel duty changes will save the average motorist over £90. In 2026-27 alone, a van driver will save an average of £100, rising to more than £800 for heavy goods vehicle drivers.”
“I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add: “recognises that, at the Autumn Budget 2025, the Government extended the five pence per litre fuel duty cut for five months and cancelled the inflation linked increase for 2026-27; welcomes that Fuel Finder helps consumers compare prices and encourages competition and that the Government has ensured that all UK petrol filling stations must report prices within 30 minutes of a change; notes that HM Treasury will continue to work with the Competition and Markets Authority on behalf of consumers; and further notes that the Government keeps fuel duty under review and that a rapid de-escalation in the Middle East is the best way to keep prices low at the pump.” I thank the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon.”
“I will make a bit of progress, and then I am sure I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman, who is always very enthusiastic. He did actually stand up on this occasion. That is what a learning curve looks like—it is a shame Conservative Front Benchers have not found one in 14 long years.”
“That is supported by the Chancellor’s decision not just to deliver the biggest uplift in defence spending since the end of the cold war, but to approve access for the Ministry of Defence to the special reserve to deploy additional capabilities to the middle east.”
“That was not the best; there is much more to come. I am enjoying the enthusiasm. Sector-specific support continues for the likes of agriculture and horticulture, which retain access to red diesel, after it was withdrawn from most sectors in 2022. Our extension of the temporary 5p fuel duty cut includes a proportionate reduction for rebated fuels, including red diesel. As the shadow Secretary of State noted, the context is that we are entering the third week of the ongoing conflict in Iran, the effects of which have spread directly across the middle east and indirectly around the world. In responding to that conflict and those effects, the Government’s priority will always be the national interest. The immediate focus is on protecting British nationals in the region, and taking necessary action to defend ourselves and our allies.”
“Our position is to deliver a stable transition. That was the position of the Conservative party. It is the party that introduced the energy profits levy. [ Interruption. ] I will answer the question. Gas and energy from the North sea will be part of the energy transition in the UK for some decades to come, as several Members have mentioned. That is why the Chancellor met the industry in recent days, and why we are setting out proposals to allow tiebacks that will help us get gas out of the ground in the near future. Longer-term changes will take significantly longer, but none of what I have heard from Conservative Members is an excuse for rejecting the tens of billions of pounds of renewable energy investment that is important for delivering domestic energy security for this country.”
“I thank the right hon. Member for his kind remarks, even if they were driven by geography rather than personality. I will take what I can get in today’s debate! Since we are being kind to each other, I recognise the point he makes about the significant uncertainty we face in this world today. That uncertainty always existed to a significant extent, if we are honest, and I think most Conservative Members realise that defence cuts year after year in the last decade were a mistake—”
“I will make a bit of progress, and then take some interventions. As I was saying, we are providing additional capabilities to the middle east, but I want to be clear that the UK will not be drawn into a wider war. We on the Labour Benches have been clear about our approach. We are in the business of protecting British nationals, not of trying to deliver regime change from the air. We need to de-escalate the conflict and we are playing our part in doing so, but the full economic impact of the conflict will of course depend on its severity and duration. Recent events have led to significant increases in oil and gas prices. As of this morning, oil prices remain over $100 per barrel and gas prices at 129p per therm.”
“As I have said, oil and gas will be with us for some time. [ Interruption. ] Let me finish. That is why the Chancellor met the sector. [ Interruption. ] I hear all the chuntering from Opposition Members, but I did not hear as much chuntering when we saw a 70% fall in jobs in the North sea on their watch. [ Interruption. ] That is the truth of what you delivered. Now, on top of that, you are trying to double down. The Conservative party is doubling down on opposing investment in renewable energy, threatening those jobs. The Labour party believes in domestic energy security delivered by a range of sources, including the nuclear that the Conservatives failed to invest in.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his question and his invitation to discuss some hypotheticals. I would just point out that it is only next week that the policy of extending the 5p freeze comes into effect. Fuel duty will be frozen until the end of August this year. That is the position as it is. I will turn later to how we think about the future, because that is a fair question, but the policy I am talking about comes into effect next week exactly.”
“I completely agree with the hon. Member that families up and down the country are worried about what they are seeing on their TV screens about the conflict in the middle east—maybe because they know people directly, but also much more universally about the effect on all of us and on their budgets—and they expect a Government who take a sensible approach, meaning that we protect household finances, which I will come to, as well as the public finances. That means taking decisions based on recognising the unavoidable uncertainty about how the future of the conflict plays out.”
“What is certain is that in the face of them, this Government will take the necessary decisions to help protect both household finances and, as I was just saying, public finances. I want to make it clear that, given the very real uncertainty, the policy and approach we are taking does give an assurance to households about how we will act.”
“I am going to make a bit of progress, but I will give way soon, because Members have been very patient. I was coming on to the fact that we are not in the business of delivering regime change from the air, but we do need to de-escalate the conflict and we will play our part in doing that. Oil and gas prices remain below the peaks they reached in 2022 following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but I do not want to hide the fact that, as we have just discussed, these are significant increases. Oil is up by 40% and gas prices have risen by around 64% since the end of February. The movement in energy markets we have already seen are likely to put upward pressure on inflation in the coming months—exactly as we have just discussed—but the ultimate size of the effects is highly uncertain.”
“I understand why the hon. Member is asking that. I would gently point out that the level of petrol prices today is lower than at the time of the election, when the Conservatives had a temporary 5p freeze and explicitly did not include continuing that freeze in their manifesto. I offer that by way of indication of where we are today. We will keep working towards a swift resolution, one that brings stability back to the region, security to Iran’s neighbours and relief to households in the UK, who are understandably worried about the effect of the conflict.”
“As the Chancellor said following her call with G7 Finance Ministers last week, we are supporting a co-ordinated release of oil reserves. That has helped to some degree to stabilise international oil markets. We have also asked the Competition and Markets Authority to remain vigilant on price developments for essentials such as road oil and heating oil. On Friday, the Chancellor and the Energy Security and Net Zero Secretary met petrol retailers to make it clear that the Government will not tolerate anyone exploiting the current situation to make excess profits.”
“We want the war to end as swiftly and quickly as possible, because the longer it goes on, the more dangerous the situation becomes and the greater the impact on the cost of living back here at home. A rapid de-escalation remains the best way to protect people from further fuel price increases—despite the bluster today, I think that is the goal of everybody sitting in this House—and that requires a return to the diplomatic process. It also means the security of vessels passing through the strait of Hormuz. On that front, the UK will play its part as the global hub of maritime insurance, but I want to be clear, given some of the things that have been said in recent weeks, that this is a complement—not an alternative—to the physical security of vessels.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. I regularly discuss exactly the kind of industries he raises today, because he is such a powerful champion on their behalf. Most firms, obviously, will be significantly more hedged than households against changes in prices, but he is absolutely right to say that the effect of energy price rises is very uneven across our industrial base. He is right to highlight energy-intensive industries and what the Government are doing when it comes to the increase in the discount delivered by the supercharger in the coming months and then the BICS in the years ahead. He is also right to make sure that we keep concentrating on this issue in the months ahead, and I am sure I will be talking to him and others about it.”
“Last week, officials were instructed to accelerate the integration of fuel finder into major digital map applications, which will make it easier for drivers to use. This tool sits alongside action to support households who rely on heating oil, as I just touched on. As the Prime Minister announced earlier this week, the Government will provide an additional £53 million of targeted support for the vulnerable households who would struggle to make an up-front lump sum to top up their tanks.”
“This Government are showing that we care about the living standards of households up and down the country, and that is exactly what we should be doing. Encouraging all retailers to engage in the fuel finder scheme, which I will come to in a second, is very important. On heating oil, we had heard worrying evidence from people—I suspect the hon. Gentleman has, too, from his constituents—about the behaviour of some suppliers. To further support competition in the market, we are introducing the fuel finder to ensure that petrol stations publish their live prices. That will make it easier for drivers to choose the lowest price. Since the beginning of February, all UK petrol stations have been asked to report price changes for petrol and diesel within 30 minutes. Almost 90% of retailers have already registered.”
“The hon. Gentleman is right, at least within England: yes, the funding will be delivered via local authorities, through the mechanism that was the household support fund, which becomes the crisis and resilience fund in a few weeks. We have written to local authorities to make it clear that they do not need to wait for the new fund to be in place and can start making commitments today. The decision on exactly who qualifies as vulnerable sits with local authorities, because one thing we have learned is that different parts of the country have different challenges on this issue.”
“For all the froth from the shadow Minister, the truth is that the previous Government did not budget for any extension of the 5p cut—they explicitly said that it was temporary. Here is the truth on the level of fuel duty: through their entire 14 years in office—”
“She welcomed the strikes and the military action that she now says lacked a clear plan. She called for Britain to get involved in the military action that she now admits lacked clear objectives. She says that her leadership is about consistency, but, on this most important of issues, the whole country can see that she is just making it up as she goes along—a cavalier attitude without a second thought for the consequences for households here in the UK. She does not get to wrap herself up in another country’s flag and play politics with a serious conflict and then pretend she never did so once the consequences for those living in the United Kingdom became clear. Opportunism is the word for the Opposition on fuel duty, too.”
“I will make a bit of progress; I have already given way to the right hon. Gentleman. To reflect the highly uneven geographical spread of heating oil reliance, as highlighted by lots of Members in recent weeks, not least those from Northern Ireland and west Wales, the funding will be allocated on the basis of census data, instead of via usual mechanisms. I have focused so far on laying out the challenge facing the country and our consistent approach to this conflict, but as this is an Opposition day, it would be rude not to talk a little about the Opposition, who have displayed rank opportunism and incoherence. This week, the Leader of the Opposition has said that she is “concerned that there isn’t a clear plan behind the strikes”, which is the opposite of what she has been saying for weeks.”
“Wait for it; I am going to come to come to those 14 years. The hon. Gentleman is going to regret saying that. Through the Conservatives’ entire 14 years in office, fuel duty was never lower than it is today. In fact, it was higher than it is today for 80% of the time they were in office.”
“I absolutely understand why the shadow Minister is looking so worked up; fuel prices matter for everyone, especially those travelling long distances. After all, it is around 270 miles from North West Durham to Billericay—once he found his new constituency, that is. I know it is called a chicken run, but I am assuming he drove. The Opposition may not be serious, but these are serious times. The cost of living matters. In a few weeks’ time, fuel duty will be 11p lower compared with the plans we inherited from the previous Government. Our action on fuel duty will save the average motorist over £90, on top of the savings from the Government’s fuel finder scheme. We will, of course, continue to keep fuel duty under close review, but it is frozen now and will remain frozen in the months ahead.”
“We will continue to be responsive to a changing world, be responsible in the national interest and with the public finances, and take the necessary decisions to help families with the cost of living. That is this Government’s promise.”
“Payments of both the basic pension and the new state pension will increase by 4.8% in April, in just a few weeks’ time, boosting pensioners’ incomes by up to £575 a year. The yearly amount of the full new state pension is projected to rise by about £2,100 over the current Parliament, reflecting this Government’s commitment to the triple lock for its duration.”
“I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend is organising events to drive pension credit take-up, as he did last year. I know that Members on both sides of the House will be doing that throughout the year. On my hon. Friend’s question about the failure of Safe Hands, he is a powerful advocate for his constituents. He will know that the Serious Fraud Office has recently announced that two individuals have been charged in relation to the case, and there are live criminal proceedings ongoing, but I know that my hon. and learned Friend the Economic Secretary, who is responsible for this matter, is always happy to meet him.”
“The hon. Member will know that it is a long-standing Government policy that the uprating of pensions is prioritised for residents in the UK, not least because the uprating levels reflect the path of earnings and prices in the UK. She will know that that was the Government’s policy under the Liberal Democrat-Conservative coalition Government, and it remains the case today.”
“This Government have set out our policy. On the question of salary sacrifice, any responsible Government should look at the effectiveness of all tax reliefs. If salary sacrifice for pensions had not been reformed, the cost would have risen to £8 billion over the course of this Parliament. That is the cost of the entire Royal Air Force. If the Conservative party wants to be treated like a serious party that is committed to fiscal discipline, as it claims to be, it is time to grow up.”
“Last week, the Office for Budget Responsibility set out its updated forecast for the UK economy, including for unemployment to peak this year before falling in each and every year thereafter. Longer-term problems for young people have been building in our labour market for far too long, with employment rates that are too low and levels of those not in education, employment or training soaring in the last Parliament. We will not allow a generation of young people to be left behind, which is why the Government have committed £820 million for the youth guarantee, strengthening employment support and guaranteeing jobs for the long-term unemployed.”
“We absolutely need to focus on both of those, which is why we are focusing apprenticeship funding on young people in particular, why we are introducing the youth guarantee, and why we have the independent review led by Alan Milburn to focus on the root causes of these challenges.”
“The hon. Member’s phrasing of his question was very telling about the challenges we all face in our labour market, because while we have seen more jobs created over the last year, there is a longer-term challenge with youth unemployment. If we look at the last Government, we never saw youth employment rates recover to the level seen under the previous Labour Government after the financial crisis, which was exactly the experience he mentioned. It is important that we grapple with that long-term challenge, and there is the newer challenge with the huge increase in NEET rates in the last Parliament specifically.”
“I think all of us recognise that our hospitality and retail sectors have had a difficult time in recent years. For retail, that goes back before the pandemic, with the growth of online shopping. The squeeze on energy costs in the outrun of the pandemic has squeezed how much people are spending on hospitality. Specifically on the hon. Member’s question about national insurance, I am sure he is aware that those under the age of 21 and on youth apprenticeships are exempt from national insurance entirely. I would gently point out that the youth employment pattern we see in the labour market long predates the changes to national insurance last year.”
“My hon. Friend has rightly been raising this issue for some time, predating the election. I will take the two parts of her question in turn. The impact of AI is something that is being looked at across countries—there is a unit inside Government looking at exactly that. More importantly, though, she mentions the crisis happening now, with some young people unable to get the job opportunities that we all want them to have, which they have not had for some time. We will bring forward further measures to strengthen the youth guarantee, which is an important measure to increase the employment support available to our young people and to ensure that a job guarantee is there for those who are long-term unemployed.”
“My hon. Friend and I have discussed these issues on many occasions, particularly as they are specific to his constituency and other coalfield communities. There are challenges, particularly with youth employment, which goes back to the last decade in particular, and we absolutely need to prioritise that. However, I would also say a word of warning on the view of the overall labour market. Looking at the employment level last year, which was around 75%, there have been only two years in peacetime in the past 100 years when Britain has had a higher employment rate. I think we should be a bit careful about talking down the resilience of the UK economy or, as in this case, the resilience of the labour market. We have had only two years in the past 100 in peacetime when Britain has had a higher employment rate than last year.”
“I want to offer my condolences to the hon. Gentleman for the recent loss of his father. It is something we all have to face at some point in our lives, but it is a lot to deal with. All our thoughts are with him at this time. In answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, no, there is no change in Government policy. Our view is that we should see alignment of the national minimum wage and national living wage rates, but that should happen in the right way, which is with the guidance of the Low Pay Commission, which will continue to play an important role.”
“The hon. Lady is right to talk about the long-term answer here, which is more domestic energy security. That is why we are getting on with building nuclear power—whether it is in Wylfa, Suffolk or Somerset. On her specific question, the Chancellor and Ministers have been very clear with the CMA that, particularly at times such as these, we need to ensure that no companies are taking advantage of customers—whether they are customers filling up their domestic heating oil or hospitality businesses.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his second question, and his enthusiastic volume of questions today. The Government balance the needs of public services with tax revenues. I gently point out that Liberal Democrat Members come to the House day in, day out, and call for more spending—we have heard that happen today—but then oppose every single tax rise or tax change required to make that happen. That is not what serious politics looks like. We need to take tax seriously, and it is time for some serious politics from the Liberal Democrats.”
“I am glad that the hon. Member and I have had the chance to discuss this issue on a number of occasions, and, more importantly, that we had the chance to do so with his constituent Staff Sergeant Pauline Cole, who served our country and campaigned on behalf of other veterans. I know that she has sadly passed away since our meeting, so I wish to put on the record my condolences to her family—not least to her son Les, on whose behalf my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (David Taylor) has been in touch in recent days. As the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Josh Babarinde) is aware, exactly because of the service of our armed forces, £10 per week of any armed forces compensation scheme award is disregarded when calculating pension credit entitlement.”
“I recognise the powerful arguments that the hon. Member and Pauline made in our meeting. Our position today reflects the balance between recognising service injuries and being consistent across the welfare system. Pension credit is a means-tested benefit, the goal of which is to top up pensioners’ income to a guaranteed minimum level, so in order to ensure consistency, most forms of income—including those he refers to—are taken into account. However, as I said, there is a partial disregard in order to recognise veterans’ service, and the value of lump-sum payments received in respect of personal injury are fully disregarded.”
“The yearly amount of the full new state pension is projected to rise by about £2,100 a year over the current Parliament. That reflects the Government’s commitment to the triple lock for the duration of the Parliament. Payments of both the basic and new state pensions will increase by 4.8% in a few weeks’ time, boosting pensioners’ incomes by up to £575 a year.”
“Whatever people think about politicians knocking on their doors, we all have organisations and charities in our constituencies—such as Age Cymru in Wales and, I am sure, many in my hon. Friend’s constituency—that do important work in tackling isolation among all our communities.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his question—and for the shocking news of his age. He is absolutely right to highlight both these issues. Pensioner poverty halved under the last Labour Government, but it has risen more recently. That is why it is so important that, as well as increasing the state pension, we have put in place the biggest-ever take-up campaign for pension credit and focused on the cost of essentials—most importantly, energy, where new measures will come into place in the next few weeks. My hon. Friend is also right to focus not just on poverty, but on isolation. I am sure that all Members of the House, when we are out knocking on doors at the weekend, meet some younger, but also some older, constituents who are too isolated. They might not be happy to see the Member who comes to knock on their door, but they might be.”