Chris Vince
MP for Harlow · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“It is hugely important that we build those international alliances because we cannot do that on our own. I ask the Minister to address in closing the economic impact on the UK of not getting the peace process back on track and trade flowing through the strait.”
“The hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth (Dr Evans) took an intervention right at the end of his speech, which threw me. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. May I take this opportunity to thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey)?”
“I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I get really annoyed when others do that but I have just done it as well. I will move swiftly on and get to the main point of my speech.”
“I think Members across the House recognise the huge importance of debating these issues and the very concerning times that we live in—that is probably putting it mildly—and I cannot think of anybody else I would want to see debating them at the Dispatch Box, other than maybe my hon.”
“The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and I absolutely do, and I will add to that too. I wanted somehow to shoehorn in my support for the BBC World Service and ask Members to bear with me as I am going to do that, because it is also important that we recognise the malign influence of the Iran regime in this country.”
“My hon. Friend makes a really important point. I do not mean this response to sound jokey, but if I, for example, wanted to promote Harlow to be the UK capital of culture—sadly, we got rejected—the way to achieve that might not just be to directly say to people, “Come on, let’s get behind Harlow.” I am not suggesting that these bad actors…”
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“I am not going to tell the hon. Gentleman that he is completely wrong—he should not worry about that. I will make another point. I wonder whether the distinction might be how time-sensitive losing a particular service would be. That is just a suggestion.”
“I was going to intervene on the hon. and gallant Member for Spelthorne, but he is bigger than me. I recognise the points he made about the number of critical suppliers, but I come at the question from the other angle: doing nothing may leave critical suppliers at risk. Although we might not know the exact number, as he correctly asserted, it is important that we do something and introduce the regulations as soon as we can to protect our critical infrastructure.”
“I made this point on Monday, but it is really important to make it again. The vast majority of Members in this House come here to represent our constituencies, and people across this House will recognise that I do my best to represent Harlow as much as I possibly can. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] Does the Minister agree that the reason why the case of Peter Mandelson is so damning and upsets so many people across this House is because when that individual was in the other place—potentially when he was in this place—he was not representing the people he was supposed to represent? Instead, he was representing a vile paedophile. Does the Minister also agree that the reason for the strength of feeling across the House is that Peter Mandelson is letting down all of us?”
“Because of changes in the geopolitical environment, we are seeing—for example in Europe, but also in Australia and the United States—specific laws coming in that look at the supply chain in different sectors and provide for more onerous obligations. We are seeing that in the environment. NIS2 is being transposed into national laws. Organisations take a long time to get to the point of compliance. We are probably behind the curve, but this is not a new concept. Adapting to change within tech and change within how organisations themselves are relying on a supply chain that is more vulnerable and fragile is common.”
“Q I feel that I should declare an interest as the MP for Harlow, which has a large data centre within it. My question is about international alignment. Is this legislation in keeping with developments that you are seeing globally? David Cook: There is reform all over the world. At its core, we have got a European law that is transposed in UK national legislation, the General Data Protection Regulation. That talks about personal data and has been seen as the gold standard all over the world. Different jurisdictions have implemented, not quite a copycat law, but one that looks a lot like the GDPR, so organisations have something that they can target, and then within their territory they are often going to hit a compliance threshold as well.”
“As a third and final point, Australia is an interesting one, as it is providing a cyber-safety net to small and medium-sized enterprises, which provides cyber expertise from the Government to enable smaller entities to get up to code and achieve resilience where those entities lack the personnel and funding.”
“It also covers things like ransomware, which we know the UK Home Office is looking at, and Internet of Things security, which the UK Government recently looked at. Those are probably the two comparators. We hope that the CSRB will take the UK a big step towards that, but as a lot of my colleagues have said, there is a lot of work to do in terms of seeing the guidance and ensuring that it is implemented effectively. Chris Anley: On the point about where we are perhaps falling behind, with streamlining of reporting we have already mentioned Australia and the EU, which is in progress. On protection of their defenders, other territories are already benefiting from those protections—the EU, the US, and I mentioned Portugal especially.”
“There is clearly a bit of work still to do there. There is also some variation in how NIS2 is being implemented, which we feel as an international company operating right across the European Union. As has been touched on briefly, there is now a move, through what are called omnibus proposals, to simplify the reporting requirements and other elements of cyber-security and privacy laws across the EU, which is a welcome step. I mentioned in a previous answer the work that Australia has been doing, and the Security of Critical Infrastructure Act 2018—SOCI—was genuinely a good standard and has set a good bar for expectations around the world. The Act has rigorous reporting requirements and caveats and guardrails for Government step-in powers.”
“Q Thank you for coming along. Chris has touched on this already, but the Government’s impact assessment of the Bill said that the UK was falling behind its international partners. You all have experience of working globally. Could you comment on that and whether you agree with it? Matt Houlihan: I am very happy to. Two main comparators come to mind. One is the EU, and we have talked quite a bit about NIS2 and the progress that has made. NIS2 does take a slightly different approach to that of the UK Government, in that it outlines, I think, 18 different sectors, up from seven under NIS1. There is that wide scope in terms of NIS2. Although NIS2 is an effective piece of legislation, the implementation of it remains patchy over the EU. Something like 19 of the 27 EU member states have implemented it to date in their national laws.”
“Natalie Black: To round this off, at the end of the day we always have to come back to the problem we are trying to solve, which is ensuring cyber-security and resilience. As you will have heard from many others today, cyber is a threat that is always evolving. The idea that we can have a stagnant approach is for the birds. We need to be flexible as regulators. We need to evolve and adapt to the threat, and to the different operators we will engage with over the next couple of years. Collectively, we all appreciate that flexibility.”
“It is important to be able to customise accordingly; indeed, we have added physical elements to the cyber assessment framework, which is incredibly important. We welcome that flexibility being maintained in the Bill. Ian Hulme: Just to contrast with colleagues from Ofcom and Ofgem, ICO’s sector is the whole economy, so it is important that we are able to produce guidance that speaks to all the operators in that sector. Because our sector is much bigger, we currently have something like 550 trust service providers registered, and that will grow significantly with the inclusion of managed service providers. So guidance will be really important to set expectations from a regulatory perspective.”
“Q I declare an interest. My father-in-law is Professor Robin Bloomfield, a professor of software and system dependability at City St George’s, University of London, and I have a large data centre in my constituency. My question is probably shorter than that. Why is it important to give regulators flexibility to implement guidance for the sectors they cover? Stuart Okin: In the energy sector, we tend to use operational technology rather than IT systems. That might mean technology without a screen, so an embedded system. It is therefore important to be able to customise our guidance. We do that today. We use the cyber assessment framework as a baseline, and we have a 335-page overlay on our website to explain how that applies to operational technology in our particular space.”
“That is not for financial gain; they do it until the time is right for them to pull the trigger and cause a crisis. In the transportation sector, there are a lot of cellular IOT modules embedded in e-buses and EVs. These devices require constant communication with servers in China to function, so they are constantly feeding data back to China for maintenance, remote access of data and that kind of thing. It could all be innocent and a feature for operational and functional purposes, but if—and only if—Beijing orders that data to be handed over and actions to be taken, it will become a problem. That is the context of the risk we are facing when it comes to China, especially in terms of state-sponsored attacks. All entities, be they foreign companies in China or local Chinese-founded companies, have an obligation under Chinese law.”
“We cannot understand the threat without understanding the civil-military fusion of the Chinese state. Chinese companies operating in our CNI are not independent per se, in the way we would normally think about that in our country—in other words, private entities that operate on their own and have their own decision-making mechanisms. They are legally obligated under at least article 7 of China’s national intelligence law to co-operate with the state, to provide information, to provide help with decryption and to gather information at the request of the Government. As highlighted by the NCSC, groups such as Volt Typhoon are pre-positioning within utility networks in the States. They do not use malware; they live off the land, using legitimate administrative credentials to proceed undetected for years.”
“Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. What methods are hostile state actors using to infiltrate UK essential services, and what can we do to prevent that? Chung Ching Kwong: Just to give some background, I am a senior analyst for the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China, and a PhD candidate in law at the University of Hamburg, focusing on data protection and data transfer. My expertise is not entirely on critical infrastructure security, but I do a lot of analysis on China’s legal system and also how it works in general. That is how I can contribute to this evidence session. The threat posed by the CCP to our critical national infrastructure, such as water, energy and transportation, has shifted from espionage—stealing secrets—to pre-positioning, or preparing for sabotage.”
“That means it is gathering data of dissidents overseas, it is gathering data on the power grid, it is gathering data on transportation—anything they might find useful for a different purpose, which is, ultimately, to serve the goal of the survival of the regime.”
“Of course, gathering data gives them insight into what is happening in the UK; if they want transportation data or power grid data, they can gather those data by different means. But it is also very important to understand Xi Jinping’s comprehensive national security concept. I think this is the reason why they are so determined to collect information, not only in the UK but worldwide. In that kind of comprehensive security concept, political security, defined as the survival of the regime, is paramount. It overrides anything—not economic gain, not whether or not the GDP of China is going to grow in the next year, but any information or action that they see as necessary to make sure that the CCP is in control.”
“Q I was thinking specifically about data. There is a back and forth about digital IDs, for example, but the reality is that a lot of people’s data already exists on the internet. Is it your view that it is not necessarily about the short-term financial gain that the data can provide, but a long-term process of gathering information? Chung Ching Kwong: Gathering information and data is definitely one of the main goals, but it is not limited to data transfer. Right now, in the UK, they do not need to rely only on access to critical infrastructure; under the Data Protection Act here in the UK, it is legal to transfer personal data through contractual clauses, so they can have access to personal data as long as they have that.”
“It is things like patching and doing your software updates. Whether you are a member of the public or running an organisation, finding a way to do those updates and patches means that 50% of the threat has gone, there and then. With something like multi-factor authentication, it seems like most organisations do not want to inconvenience their staff or customers by putting it in place, but that would be another 40% of the problem solved. It is not infallible—nothing is—but if you are thinking about how attacks are still successful, it is pretty basic: a lot of our protections are not in place. Solving that means that 90% of the threat is gone, there and then. That then leaves the 10% of more sophisticated threats—let’s make the criminals work a bit harder.”
“Q Part of my concern is the pace of change in the technology that hackers are using, and I am sure that is a concern for you as well. One of the conversations about the Bill is about how flexible or inflexible it should be. What is your view on the changing pace of the threat we face from criminality when it comes to cyber-attacks, and on how the Bill can best be framed to deal with that ever-changing challenge and threat? DCS Andrew Gould: It is a tricky one. It feels like the technology change is getting ever faster and ever more challenging, but I first went into cyber-crime in the Met back in 2014, and we are giving the same advice now as we were giving then. Sometimes your head can explode with the technical complexity of it, but a lot of the solution just comes down to doing the really boring basics in a world-class way.”
“A lot of our suppliers, and a lot of our systems and processes, are procured from elsewhere, so we are looking for anything at all within the health service that will improve the process and the links with third party service providers.”
“Q Thank you for joining us remotely from Scotland. I have a question for Stewart about data protection. In my Harlow constituency we have just got a new electronic patient registration scheme; what risks do you see in the increased use of technology like that in the NHS? Does the Bill help to address some of the risks? Stewart Whyte: Anything that increases or improves our processes in the NHS for a lot of the procured services that we take in, and anything that is going to strengthen the framework between the health board or health service and the suppliers, is welcome for me. One of our problems in the NHS is that the systems we put in are becoming more and more complex. Being able to risk assess them against a particular framework would certainly help from our perspective.”
“I pay tribute to the fact that some of the provisions were engaged on and consulted on by the prior Government, and there is widespread consensus across industry and in the regulatory and enforcement contexts about the necessity and the quality of the Bill. On that front, I feel we are in a good place. On specific questions, of course, there is debate—we have heard some of that today—but I am very much looking forward to going through clause by clause to explain why the intent of the Bill is reflected in the particular definitions.”
“Q Thank you for your time, Minister. Listening to the evidence and looking at the Bill, what strikes me is that this is about a balance between the importance of flexibility—particularly given the increase in threat and the complexity of the issues we face—and businesses wanting certainty. Do you feel confident that the Bill strikes that balance, and how have you sought to ensure that it does? Kanishka Narayan: The primary thing to say is that the range of organisations—commercial ones as well as those from the cyber-security world more generally—coming out to welcome the Bill is testament to the fact that it is deeply needed.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for recently welcoming me to the Peterborough museum and art gallery, where we went to a “Dr Who” exhibit and discovered that Davros was considering defecting to Reform. I thank my hon. Friend for his excellent speech. I recently talked to the chief executive officer of the food bank in Harlow, and he spoke of the big difference that this policy will make. Does my hon. Friend agree that the people who work for food banks want them not to be needed any longer, and that this Government should try to achieve that?”
“I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and for his continued international leadership. I know, however, that wherever he goes in the world, he is always thinking about Harlow, so what difference will a productive relationship with the second-largest economy and our third-biggest trading partner make to businesses in my constituency?”
“I thank the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister for his statement. His focus on the victims of these terrible crimes is absolutely right. The majority of us in this House, whatever colour rosette we wear, come here to represent our constituency, and I hope I show that I represent my constituency as well as I can, every single day. When we hear of an MP, or in this case a Government Minister, representing the interests of outside bodies—in this case, a vile paedophile —it is absolutely disgraceful, and very upsetting to those of us who come here for the right reasons. What will the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister do, working with the PM, to ensure that we have a strengthened ministerial code, so that this can never happen again?”
“Last weekend, I had the pleasure of visiting the Advanced Aquarium Consultancy in my constituency of Harlow, where they breed, grow and sell coral. I am not going to make any coral jokes, which will be a reef to everybody. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] What is unique about Advanced Aquarium Consultancy is the amount of energy it needs to use. What are the Government doing to support such businesses to bring down energy costs?”
“Karen says that Harlow college works “with college staff going directly into schools to discuss careers, support applications and help prepare young people for interviews. This early, collaborative approach reduces the risk of young people falling through the gaps at key transition points and demonstrates the vital role that further education colleges play in tackling NEETs and supporting social mobility.” The right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness has not intervened on me, so I do not think I have made any political points. Let me finish by saying that I am absolutely determined for young people in my constituency to have the best opportunity moving forward. I am delighted that this Labour Government are investing in my town, and that the UK Health Security Agency will have its permanent home in Harlow.”
“Harlow College also recognises that preventing young people from becoming NEET must begin earlier.” That is a really important point that we can all understand. I know young people in Harlow who have been out of employment for a number of years, and whose parents have perhaps been out of work for a number of years, and we have to change that culture. She goes on: “The college works closely with local schools, including Passmores Co-operative Learning Community.” It is a community co-operative—“co-operative” is, technically, a political term, but it is in the title of the multi-academy trust. I pay tribute to Vic Goddard, the executive head of Passmores Co-operative Learning Community, for his work with the college, because this must work both ways.”
“I pay tribute to the college’s principal, Karen Spencer, who has written a few points for me—it is not too long, and certainly not as long as what my mother would write, so hon. Members should not worry—about the work of Harlow college, and schools in my constituency, to get the NEET rate down in Harlow. I thank the college and those schools for their work. Karen Spencer writes: “Harlow college has developed a targeted NEET programme that recognises the complex barriers many young people face. Through flexible entry routes, small group provision and strong pastoral support, learners are helped to rebuild confidence, re-engage with education and progress into further study or employment. Importantly, these students are fully integrated into college life, including English and maths, enrichment activities and digital support.”
“Members across the House will agree that for people who suffer from mental health issues, which we recognise affect people to different degrees, work can be the solution, because it can provide an opportunity to give back to society and provide self-worth, which is really important. Most of my contribution will be about the work of Harlow college. I was about to make a political comment, but I stopped myself. I came to this House not to be negative, or to talk down the country, but to talk up Harlow. Over the past year, the number of young people in Harlow not in education, employment or training has gone down, mainly because of the work being done by Harlow college.”
“I found myself working from home, giving online lessons and that sort of thing, and thinking to myself, “Now I’ve got to find a new job during lockdown.” I was not worried about it April, May or June, but when we got to August, I started to think, “Oh my gosh, in a couple of weeks’ time I will be unemployed.” I will not pretend that I was particularly young in March 2020—I am not trying to claim that I am a young person—but I wanted to tell that story because for me, the idea of being unemployed was terrifying. I recognised the huge impact that being unemployed, for any length of time, would have on my mental health.”
“I went to see my headteacher and said, “I want to resign,” but he convinced me to stay until September, the start of the next academic year, so I handed in my notice on 22 March 2020. If hon. Members know anything about recent history, they will know that resigning on 22 March 2020 was quite a gamble, because the following day the country changed and we went into lockdown.”
“It is a pleasure to speak in the debate. I thank the Minister and the shadow Minister for opening the debate on this important issue. It is hugely important that hon. Members have the opportunity to speak on this subject. The hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Bradley Thomas) suggested that Labour Members were risk averse, but I am going to take a risk: I will attempt to make a speech in which I will not make any political points. If I do at any time make a political point, I will allow the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) to intervene. I think that is very fair. I start by taking the House back to lockdown in March 2020. I made the decision to leave my job as a teacher; I will not go into why, because I do not want to make any political points.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his powerful speech on a topic about which I know he is particularly passionate. He will be aware that Alexander Dennis has a base in my constituency of Harlow. Would he agree that the move towards zero emission buses is a massive opportunity to increase the skills base of our communities? We should welcome the opportunity that young people have in our constituencies to work on these revolutionary new vehicles.”
“Mr Speaker, can I offer my deepest sympathies for your recent injury? I pay tribute to the WASPI women in my constituency for their tireless campaigning on this issue. Will the Minister outline the difference that his Department and this Labour Government are making to all pensioners in Harlow?”
“I thank the Home Secretary for her statement and welcome the reforms that she has set out. I was pleased to see a mention of direct entry—although, as I say that, I realise that my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle and Clitheroe (Jonathan Hinder) might never pass to me in football again. Can she set out in more detail how this might look in a modern police force like Harlow’s?”
“The Secretary of State will know that one job I did before coming to this place was to work at a homelessness charity. It was particularly difficult to see homeless veterans coming to me in need of support. In my constituency, we have nearly 2,000 veterans. Will he outline what additional support the Government will give to home our veterans, and how we will support them with mental health issues, particularly post-traumatic stress disorder?”
“As the shadow Secretary of State knows, I always try to find cross-party consensus. Will he join me in praising Private Robert Foster, who was from Harlow and who lost his life in Afghanistan? Members from across the House had constituents who lost their lives serving this country, and we should all be incredibly proud of them.”
“I warmly welcome the statement from the Secretary of State. I had a visit from Citizens Advice Harlow yesterday, and it told me what we probably already know: the No. 1 issue facing residents in Harlow is damp, mould and fuel poverty. The homes in Harlow were not built in 1919, because Harlow did not exist in 1919, but new towns have a unique problem in that they were all built at the same time, sometimes quickly after the war, so they are suffering from these problems at the same time. Will the Secretary of State take the new towns challenge into consideration, and can he detail how this plan will make a huge difference for residents in my constituency?”
“The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), challenged Labour MPs to champion their constituencies. One of the biggest concerns I have about pensions in my constituency of Harlow is the number of people who are not paying into any pension at all, particularly those who are self-employed or lower earners. Does the Liberal Democrat spokesperson agree that the real conversation that we in this place need to be having about pensions is how we encourage people in my constituency and beyond to save for their futures, which I think is what he is suggesting?”
“The Minister has said that the cost to the Exchequer of the salary sacrifice scheme is going to triple by the end of this decade. Does he agree that that is unsustainable for the Treasury, and also that we in this Chamber have to get real? The reason why people in my constituency of Harlow cannot even begin to think about pensions or savings is that they are living day to day. What this Government need to do is tackle the cost of living crisis, and that is what they are doing.”
“The Minister is making a powerful speech. He will recognise that the Bill is of huge concern to residents in my constituency, because many victims of crime who are waiting for justice to be served are waiting years for the person responsible to face trial. Does the Minister agree that it is really important that this Government get on top of the backlog and get people in front of courts as quickly as possible?”
“I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for her personal work to tackle the huge issue of tool theft, which has had a huge impact on tradespeople in my constituency of Harlow. Does she agree with me that, as she said, it is not just about the person themselves but their family and their livelihood? Being a victim of such crimes also has a huge impact on mental health, so I thank her for her work.”
“It is an opportunity for the Christian, Muslim and Hindu communities to come together and show that we are as one in fighting the scourge of antisemitism and other forms of racism. I look forward to standing with Rabbi Irit and other religious leaders in Harlow at the weekend to recognise Holocaust Memorial Day. We must never forget the evils of the Holocaust, and I am really pleased that this Government are taking that mission very seriously. This Bill is a huge part of that.”
“Members across the House, I have visited Auschwitz and seen the horrors of the Holocaust, but what we perhaps do not see so often are the events that led to it; I think about Kristallnacht and the ghettos. It has been a real pleasure to meet on a fairly regular basis with my local rabbi in Harlow, Rabbi Irit, to talk about how the Jewish community in Harlow is doing. I am pleased to hear that the Jewish community in my constituency has not experienced antisemitism, but we must always be mindful. I pay particular tribute to Rabbi Irit for the work that she has done with faith groups from across my constituency. For personal reasons, I was sadly unable to attend this year’s interfaith service that she ran at Harlow synagogue, but I look forward to attending it next year.”
“When we came together in this House last year to recognise the 80th anniversary of the end of the second world war, we all recognised that it would be one of the last significant anniversaries for which veterans of that terrible conflict would be with us. We must recognise that, as we move forward, those who survived the terrible events of the Holocaust will no longer be with us, but we must carry their flame and continue to remember. We must build a bridge between memory and action, between history and hope for the future, and education about the Holocaust and antisemitism is hugely important for that reason. Like many right hon. and hon.”
“I thank the Minister and the shadow Secretary of State for their speeches in opening this important debate. I absolutely welcome this Bill and its aim to create a lasting memorial to the 6 million people who lost their lives in what was probably the most devastating event in recent history, to those who survived and carry the scars with them, and to their families. I recognise what my hon. Friend the Minister has said about the Bill and Lords amendment 1, and in particular about the need to move the Bill forward at pace. I am attending a Holocaust Memorial Day event in Harlow at the weekend. The theme for Holocaust Memorial Day 2026 is “Bridging Generations”. The reason why this Bill is so important is that we need to recognise that the responsibility of remembrance cannot just end with survivors.”
“I note that the Minister has not been to Harlow yet. [ Laughter. ] Families in Harlow have completely lost faith in the SEND system that we inherited. I do not think that it is too much of a stretch to suggest that parents are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder after battling to get support for their children. Will she outline, based on the specialist places she mentioned in a previous answer, what the Government are doing to ensure that we have a system that does not pit families, and indeed education professionals, against a system that is broken?”