Sojan Joseph
MP for Ashford · Labour · United Kingdom
“I agree with the hon. Member that people with power, especially those with political platforms, have used it to spread misinformation about vaccination. Some medical professionals working in our hospitals and the NHS—doctors and nurses—are also against vaccines. Can the hon. Member explain how we can tackle that issue?”
“This morning, I visited the Churchill school in Hawkinge and had a good interaction with the young children. Most of their questions were about protecting nature, and they repeatedly asked how we can support them to plant more trees.”
“As the chair of the APPG on adult social care, I pay tribute to unpaid carers for the enormous contribution they make to their families, their communities and wider society. I often have meetings with them, and as part of my job before I became an MP—I worked in the NHS—I had a lot of contact with carers.”
“I would appreciate it if the Minister would respond to that point, and if the Government would consider something to support carers, while not putting any more administrative burden on the NHS, where we are focusing on providing more support on the frontline.”
“It is good to see you in the Chair, Ms Lewell. I strongly believe that public health is very important to our health system because it focuses on prevention, so that people do not end up in A&E or in hospital beds. Unfortunately, over the last 10 or 15 years we have seen the opposite.”
“I worked as a nurse on the frontline in mental health services, and what we saw was money being diverted to create more senior leadership, more groups, more meetings and more management, while we were missing the people who actually did the work on the frontline.”
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“I know it also talks about giving power to the Secretary of State to formalise who should be part of the multidisciplinary team, which would be a discussion for later. I thank the Committee for giving me the opportunity to speak in support of the amendment.”
“We are talking about setting up a multidisciplinary team with a mental health nurse, doctor and social worker who can look in detail at evidence of the patient’s capacity, whether they are choosing it because they feel they are a burden, and whether there is any coercion. I think that is a safeguard for most of the concerns we have discussed in previous sessions. I would love to see a psychiatrist involved, because psychiatrists deal with some of the most challenging patients, including those with suicidal thoughts, on a day-to-day basis. They are the most experienced people to carry out a capacity assessment and, if they are a part of the multidisciplinary team, it will safeguard the Bill. I strongly support amendment 425 and I urge Members to consider it. It will reassure many people who are concerned about some of the discussions.”
“Written evidence was sent to us on 29 January by the Royal College of General Practitioners, which recommended that a separate pathway that “covered every stage of the process would ensure healthcare professionals of multiple disciplines…who wanted to do so could still opt in to provide assisted dying, but this would be arranged through a different pathway.” The hon. Member for Sunderland Central spoke earlier about how patients may be going through many multidisciplinary teams already, but it could be that none of those multidisciplinary teams have talked with them about assisted dying. They could have been pharmacists or nurses talking about the patient’s care—not assisted dying.”
“I am not saying that they should say yes or no, but they should be talking about the care provisions and options available to the patient. Amendment 342 is one of the most important amendments we will debate. I will move on to amendment 425. When I tabled amendment 1, my thinking was that a psychiatrist should be involved in these discussions, but I think amendment 425 will safeguard most of the concerns we have discussed in previous sittings. Amendment 425 talks about a “multidisciplinary team” and having a psychiatrist involved as well.”
“There are other people who support this concept, and they are the people who will be having the conversation—we have both sides of the argument. I believe that the best person to have that preliminary discussion would be the doctor who knows about that patient the most—about their circumstances, prognosis, family situation and pain. We talk about compassionate care, but where is the compassion in here? I am not saying that another doctor would deny that—but I am talking about compassion. Someone going through the most difficult time in their life would have the confidence to talk to the person who knows the most about them, which is why I fully support that the initial discussion should happen with them.”
“I fully support the amendments, but they say that the practitioner conducting the preliminary discussion should use an interpreter. Should the interpreter not also be available for all the interactions that follow on from the preliminary discussion?”
“I rise to speak in support of the amendment. The documentation in our healthcare system is a very important matter. It helps us to share good practice and to learn from mistakes. Whether in secondary care, primary care or nursing homes, the quality and the safety of our patient care is monitored by the Care Quality Commission, which uses clinical documentation to carry out its process of monitoring that quality and safety. It is important that any conversation had with patients by the doctor, or by any medical professional or multidisciplinary team, is documented clearly. That will help to safeguard our patients.”
“As the hon. Member for Richmond Park says, we have repeatedly debated people’s mental health and how, once somebody has had a diagnosis of a terminal illness, it can have an impact on their decision making. Amendment 425, which we discussed earlier, is about having access to a multidisciplinary team. That team could have on it a social worker or a psychiatrist who would make a comprehensive assessment, which would cover amendment 271. The amendment is an opportunity for the Committee to look into this issue, to make the Bill stronger, and to bring in safeguards for vulnerable people who may feel suicidal, and may feel a burden to society or to the healthcare system, and may choose this way. Those people who are vulnerable would have a psychosocial and mental health assessment, which would make the Bill stronger and safer.”
“Friend the Member for Bradford West has talked about unconscious bias. The initial capacity assessment when a person comes to a hospital is very important. If a doctor has assessed at the beginning that the person has capacity, the following assessment can be influenced by that initial assessment. I totally agree with my hon. Friend’s argument about unconscious bias in capacity assessments. As Members have mentioned, the Bill proposes many occasions in the process when capacity will be assessed, but I am still not confident that each capacity assessment will not be influenced by the initial assessment. The amendments would strengthen that area of concern.”
“I will talk about my experience with those margins of error. A person’s capacity can be influenced by various factors, including their life circumstances, the medication they are taking or severe pain. Suicidal thoughts due to their mental state or depression can also influence their capacity. I have worked in acute mental health units. Every day, we carried out capacity assessments, including before we let someone out of the ward, whether they were admitted under the Mental Health Act or were receiving treatment as a voluntary patient. If somebody wanted to leave the ward, before the member of staff opened the door, they had to assess that person’s capacity. Sometimes a person might have said, “I am going to kill myself,” and the nurse would have had to decide whether or not they had capacity before opening the door. My hon.”
“I rise to speak in support of the amendments. Having worked as a mental health nurse for 22 years, I completed mental capacity training many times in my career, and I carried out capacity assessments as part of my day-to-day job. I think that the capacity assessment proposed in the Bill is not safe enough. That was one of the main reasons I voted against the Bill on Second Reading. I have spoken to many people who oppose the Bill, and one of their concerns is about the capacity assessment. We have talked about capacity assessments every day in this Committee. It is one of the key issues that we will need to resolve to strengthen the Bill if it goes through. One of the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ concerns is that capacity decisions are “opinions with a margin of error and are time specific. A person’s capacity can change”.”
“I agree that when an independent doctor comes to assess a patient’s capacity and sees them for the very first time, they are more likely to be influenced by the assessment made at the beginning by the doctor who has known them for many days, weeks or months. I agree with my hon. Friend’s argument.”
“It is not guaranteed. I am grateful for that intervention. We have talked about training for all registered professionals who will be involved in the capacity assessments. As someone who has carried out that training many times, I draw the attention of the Committee to Dr Rachel—”
“71, Q85.] That is my experience as well. We also talked about the second doctors. In the NHS, especially in the mental health sector, my experience is that many of the doctors are not in substantive roles—many locum doctors work in many areas. With my experience, I am not confident that trainings are being taken up by many of the people working in the NHS. I do not think that any of the trusts would be able to evidence that they have an 100% completion rate for their mandatory training. Especially for locum doctors, there is no monitoring system by the trusts. I am therefore not confident that this training would be robust enough to support some of the claims.”
“I was talking about the training, which we have talked about many times in this Committee, for the people who may carry out capacity assessments, and about my experience of completing those trainings as part of my profession and carrying out capacity assessments for the past 22 years. We heard oral evidence from Dr Rachel Clarke, who has extensive experience in training doctors and nurses in capacity assessments. She said: “I would suggest that anybody who pretends that those assessments are easy and routinely done well in the NHS has not got enough experience of observing that happening. I teach capacity assessments to doctors and medical students, and it is often the case that they are very poorly conducted.” — [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c.”
“I agree. As part of the code of practice, professionals are expected to complete the training that has been outlined already, but I am not confident that that is actually happening. Saying that there will be training does not reassure me that it will be robust enough.”
“I want to make it clear that the capacity assessment is the key. I would love to support this amendment. As I said earlier, this issue was one reason I voted against the Bill on Second Reading, but passing this amendment might change my position and I would love to support it.”
“Member for East Wiltshire talked about the capacity assessments carried out when patients are standing by or threatening to jump off a bridge. I am not comparing these situations or saying that they are similar, but we have to make decisions based on capacity. In my experience of discharging people from hospital in a mental health unit, when somebody is threatening, “I’m going to kill myself if you discharge me”, the multi-disciplinary team—the doctors and the nurses—have to make a decision on whether to discharge the patient based on their capacity at that time. Capacity is assessed based on whether someone is able to understand information—can they retain, use and weigh information, and can they communicate their decision? We cannot compare that with the situation of somebody asking for assisted dying.”
“I would be happy to see the Bill make a strong case that the people who will take part in this process have training before they do so. My larger issue is around the independent doctors. Again, I will use some examples of how the Mental Health Act 1983 has been carried out in its current format. Those cases always use a section 12-approved doctor, who is a second doctor and they may not have had any kind of contact with the patients. We may or may not end up in that sort of similar situation. That is the point I was making earlier. As the Royal College of Psychiatrists mentioned, capacity can change and decisions are opinions with margins of error. I mentioned my experience working in mental health wards earlier, and the hon.”
“Does the Minister agree that when it comes to withdrawing treatment, especially switching off a ventilator, the decision is often made between the medical professionals and the families, and most of the time the patient has no say in it?”
“The amendment would add a 28-day period between the diagnosis and the start of the conversation about assisted dying. Having listened to hon. Members speak and given the evidence that we have heard, does my hon. Friend think that patients should have not only a 28-day gap, but access to a psychiatrist before the discussion of assisted suicide should start?”
“I welcome this announcement, under which my constituents in Ashford will benefit from free breakfast clubs in three schools: Downs View infants school, Kingsnorth primary school and Chilmington primary school. Giving children a chance to settle down and start their day at a club with friends will have a positive long-term impact on their mental health. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this needs to be rolled out to every primary school as soon as possible?”
“I welcome the announcement that there will be a public inquiry into what led to the tragic killing of three people in Nottingham in 2023. This follows the publication of the independent mental health homicide review into the case last week. Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate or statement to consider the findings of the review to ensure that, while the public inquiry takes place, important lessons are learned immediately in every part of the mental health system to prevent similar cases?”
“My hon. Friend mentioned domestic violence and vulnerable people. Do we not also need to think about the many people in hospital beds and nursing homes who may not have any relatives? They might get influenced or encouraged to choose this route by professionals because of the pressure on the NHS and hospices. Amendment 23 would strengthen the Bill in that respect as well.”
“Would inserting the line in the amendment not also give us another opportunity to assess the patient’s capacity? Under the Mental Capacity Act 2005, a person should be able to “understand” and “weigh” the information, so does having this line not also help us to assess a person’s capacity?”
“Further to those points of order, Ms McVey. I also assume that we are expecting more written evidence to come through. We Committee members are here for the whole day. I hear you say, Ms McVey, that this is normal practice, but considering the importance of the Bill, I assume there will be a lot more written evidence by the end of today. It would be good to consider how Committee members are able to go through that written evidence before we come back here tomorrow morning.”
“We heard many pieces of oral evidence from expert psychiatrists, including from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, saying that the Mental Capacity Act is not fit for the Bill. Even if we use the Act, many conditions such as depression or delirium —or the effects of some medication—can impact on people’s decision making. It is worrying when someone like Dr Rachel Clarke, who has extensive experience in the Mental Capacity Act and has been training medical students and nurses, says of those mental capacity assessments that “it is often the case that they are…poorly conducted.” –– [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 71, Q85.] Would my hon. Friend agree that rather than use the Mental Capacity Act, the “ability” amendment tabled by the hon.”
“On a point of clarification, under the Mental Capacity Act, if somebody decided to stop eating and drinking, we would let them do it until they became unconscious, and then their best interests would come into effect. We would take them into treatment if there were a risk to their life. Would my hon. Friend agree that that needs to be clarified?”
“These amendments bring up the importance of a psychosocial assessment, which was highlighted in many pieces of our oral evidence. If we are looking to bring more safeguards into this Bill, that is something we should consider to safeguard this group of people. I want to make one more point about what the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire said: not all homeless people are homeless in the same way; some people choose to sleep rough. I am not clear whether, if somebody is sleeping rough and is diagnosed with a terminal illness, we are looking to bring them back into an NHS bed to assist them to die. I do not know whether there is a provision to identify how we would manage those sorts of situations.”
“I want to contribute to this discussion based on my experience as a mental health nurse. I worked in mental health services for 22 years, including managing a medium secure forensic unit. I have worked with many homeless people and people who were detained under the Mental Health Act by the criminal justice system in those medium secure units and who had been involved in criminal activities. With my experience, I can categorically say that that group of people is very vulnerable. As the hon. Member for East Wiltshire said, self-harming and suicidal tendencies are very high among that group. As part of the risk assessments that we carry out in the mental health system, one of the questions is whether they are homeless. That question is asked to identify that vulnerability.”
“I thank the right hon. Member for that intervention. To clarify, not all patients who are diagnosed as terminally ill are necessarily bedridden. They may be capable of carrying out their day-to-day activities as normal, even though they have been diagnosed with a terminal illness and have been given a prognosis of six months. They may still be walking around. Not everybody needs palliative care, in fact. My question was: if somebody who is a rough sleeper is diagnosed with a terminal illness and they want help with assisted dying, will we make provision to bring them back into an NHS bed to facilitate their dying? It would be great to have that clarification. I support the amendment, as I have seen many highly vulnerable people who would be more likely to choose the path to end their life if they were given the option.”
“I must disclose that I worked as a mental health nurse in the NHS for the past 22 years, and that in my career, I progressed from nurse to head of nursing. Recruitment and retention of nursing staff across the health and social care sector is key to delivering an NHS that is fit for the future, but the most recent NHS staff workforce survey showed that just 56% of staff felt that the health service acted fairly when it came to career progression. What steps will this Government take to address this issue, and to ensure that our nursing workforce feel valued and feel a sense of purpose in their wider work?”
“I welcome all the efforts this Government are making to improve cancer services. Early diagnosis is just as important as prevention, but we all know that patients are currently waiting several months for scan procedures. A recent visit to the GP surgeries in my constituency showed that they have spare capacity for scanning, but it is not actively offered to patients at the moment. This is due to a lack of collaborative working and communication in the health system, so will the Minister tell the House how we can improve the existing systems so that they work effectively and people can get timely procedures?”
“Q Dr Furst, can I ask a follow-up about anorexia? I know that anorexia is not classified as a terminal illness, but long-term starvation can lead to severe physical health conditions, and patients may end up in palliative care. Do you have any experience of those cases in Australia? Dr Furst: We have experience of those cases in palliative care, but I would still say that they are not eligible for voluntary assisted dying. None of us would feel comfortable, because the condition has to be irreversible. Capacity-wise, you would have to make sure that they had capacity, and I would question whether someone that is anorexic truly has capacity around their illness.”
“I can outline some of the similarities and the differences now, but it might be helpful to take submissions specifically on that question, because it is very important and I think that there is some confusion about it. If you would find it helpful, the complex life and death decisions group could write a statement to elaborate on some of the issues. In summary, I think that that evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists is significant, in terms of the confidence.”
“It is significant evidence about the confidence that is out there among experienced practitioners. It is true that psychiatrists—liaison psychiatrists particularly; I have had experience with this myself, clinically and in relation to Court of Protection matters—will be involved with assessing capacity to make decisions to refuse life-sustaining treatment. Those decisions can be quite vexed and can go to the court, and the court can struggle with them. An important question for the Committee is the distinction—or the similarity and difference, but I think that there are key differences—between the decision to refuse a treatment that is life-sustaining, of which the Court of Protection does have experience, and the decision to decide to end one’s own life. They are conceptually different decisions.”
“Q Professor Owen, written evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists states that 65% of psychiatrists “are not confident that consent can act as an adequate safeguard”. On mental capacity, it says: “These decisions are opinions with a margin of error and are time specific. A person’s capacity can change”. What is your view? Professor Owen: That is important evidence, because it comes from a body of practitioners who are very used to doing mental capacity assessments. I think that the vast majority of that sample were consultant psychiatrists, so the pool, as it were, was one of considerable experience. That conveys questionable confidence in the consent processes, of which mental capacity is part, in relation to the decision to end one’s life.”
“Dr Mulholland: Sorry—can I check whether that was a question for me at the Royal College of GPs or a question for the Royal College of Psychiatrists, because I think that statement was in their evidence?”
“Q I want to come to you, Michael. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has given a written statement, which says: “Mental disorders, such as depression, are more common in people nearing the end of their life. Delirium is more common… Hopelessness is a common symptom of depression…And people’s capacity and consent can be affected when they are going through this condition.” In the last few days, we have heard much evidence that expressed concern about capacity assessment and that said, as Dan mentioned, there should be an advocacy service available. Rather than having the current model of two doctors and the court, if we have a panel with experts on it who can consider psychosocial assessment and capacity, would that make the Bill stronger, with more safeguarding being introduced to it?”
“My own small team comprises doctors, nurses and occupational therapists, but I work closely with social workers, the safeguarding lead, chaplains and all my medical and surgical colleagues to make good decisions about my patients in a biological, psychological and social way. Not all difficulties that are psychological can be fixed with a psychiatric intervention. We would advocate as a college, and I would suggest as a clinician, that good decisions about our patients’ needs are made in a multidisciplinary way. That should be considered in the model of how to meet people’s needs in whatever way they present, but particularly for people who have difficulties and are suffering in a way that makes them feel that they do not want to continue living.”
“Dr Price: Yes; to refer back to the written evidence, if we think about people with palliative care needs towards the end of life—so the people who would qualify under this Bill—around 20% will have diagnosable depression, around 10% will have a wish to hasten death, and around 4% will have a more persistent wish to hasten death. Those wishes may not be expressed unless they are assessed for. One of the things that I would do in my clinical practice would be to look for treatable mental disorder in people who express a wish to hasten death. I do not do that alone. You asked about a panel. When I am thinking about the needs of people who are nearing the end of life, and I work with people nearing the end of life most weeks of my working life, I work in a multidisciplinary team.”
“The evidence is from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, but anybody can answer the question. Dr Mulholland: As GPs, we feel that we need a stand-alone service to take people through this process for assisted dying. We do not feel that the GP is in a place to make an assessment of capacity for this process. That is beyond anything that any of us have ever trained in or understood, and it will need people who are trained in assessing capacity at that point. As GPs, we are very used to assessing whether somebody has the capacity to take a course of antibiotics or to be referred for something that we understand, but this is an issue that will require a much deeper level—the Royal College of Psychiatrists has probably thought more on that level about the next steps.”
“We did a study in people after stroke, for example, and found that 10% of them were saying that they now thought their life was worthless and no longer worth living, and yet only a tiny proportion of those people go on to suicide. We must be able to look at the factors that protect people in that sort of situation. Yes—I think your question was, “How common is it, and is it a response to the circumstances and the illness?” The answer is yes, it is.”
“Q May I come to Professor House for clarification? For someone who has had no primary diagnosis of a mental illness got diagnosed as terminally ill, is there the possibility that that condition could make them feel depressed or hopeless? At that stage, can that influence their decision-making capacity? Professor House: It is certainly true that depressive states and depressive disorders are much commoner in people with severe physical illness than they are in the general population. Since there is not a lot of evidence that those depressive disorders cause the severe physical illness, we can assume that the depression is a response. About 20% or 30% of people are likely to have significant depressive symptoms.”
“I think it is manageable, but it takes a different kind of leadership. That is probably the key thing, but I genuinely think we can get there.”
“With the 40-year-old woman who had lost her children, is sofa-surfing and an alcoholic, and had recently been diagnosed with cancer, they said, “She probably would want to go for it,” but that is because she cannot get the mental health and social care support she needs. I do not think it is clear. Would I have to safeguard that person and get her that support or, as these communities asked me, would the only thing on offer be assisted dying? It has really profound implications for these communities. We only have to look at covid and vaccine hesitancy. As you said, that was a brilliant intervention and highly effective, but it disproportionately impacted these communities. That is why my recommendations—I will put them in writing—are that we have not only to strengthen the Bill but to strengthen those conditions.”
“It affected everyone, but it affected some communities disproportionately because our services are not equitable. That could profoundly affect their healthcare, and not only in terms of end-of-life care. They are saying, “We will not even come to hospital ourselves, because we are worried that this would happen.” This is not an academic or theoretical risk. We saw it happen in covid in Bradford. There were communities so worried that their loved ones were dying in hospital that they stayed at home and died earlier. It is not a theoretical risk. They also identified people within the community who they thought would have assisted dying but, invariably, without exception, every single one of those cases was from the most deprived and disadvantaged people in their community.”
“For ethnic minority groups, that is much higher. That leads to mistrust. I work in Bradford. We have lots of patients who are ethnically diverse in the hospital. Almost every week, one of the first things I have to reassure patients about is that I cannot legally do anything to shorten their life. This is front and centre of the fear for those patients and we see it all the time. What happens when we add assisted dying into that context? I work deep within community groups; with not only ethnically diverse communities, but those who are socially disadvantaged. I have taken this Bill to them and they have made it really clear—this is not just one community, but several, and I am not speaking on my behalf, but on theirs—that they are really fearful because this is what happened to them in covid.”
“We know already that people from ethnic minority groups and those who come from socioeconomically deprived backgrounds are less likely to access palliative care, they are less likely to say that the care that they have received at the end of life was good and they are more likely to have poor outcomes—that is, they are more likely to die in hospital and spend more time in hospital in the last year of life. What drives that are multiple reasons, but not least discrimination. We have heard about ableism, but racism is also a specific issue within palliative care. We did a survey, post-covid, of staff across the nation working in palliative care. More than 1,400 people responded. The vast majority—more than 80%—were white British, but 40% said that they had witnessed or experienced racism within the end-of-life care sector.”
“Q I would like to come to you, Dr Hussain, specifically on why you think ethnic minority people would be disproportionately affected when the law is the same for everyone. There will be capacity assessments. There will be two medical assessments. There will be a court review. If you think that is going to be an effect, what would you suggest we include in the Bill to safeguard those people? Dr Hussain: First, we need to understand the current context.”