Seamus Logan
MP for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East · Scottish National Party · United Kingdom
“I have seen in my own lifetime, in the land of my birth, how information can be hidden in the name of national security when in fact the interest is not that of the nation but of the Government of the day. That is why I believed that amendment 20 was important, and I am glad to say that 24 MPs from across the House agreed with me.”
“The intent of the amendment, which is supported by Members from a wide range of parties across the House, was to ensure that we here in Parliament, who are elected by the people, would, through the Intelligence and Security Committee of the House, have had oversight of any decision by the head of an intelligence service to hide informatio…”
“I rise to speak as a member of the Bill Committee and principally in support of amendment 20 in my name, which seeks to provide a necessary layer of democratic parliamentary scrutiny of the actions of the intelligence services. I listened very carefully to what the members of the ISC present—the hon.”
“The only other thing I want to say before I finish is the old French saying, “plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose”. We need to be careful about the implementation of this law, so that we do not see the repeat of these mistakes at some point in the future. In conclusion, I reiterate our support for this legislation.”
“That said, I cannot let today pass without making some reference to the fact that, considering the long journey that we have been on—considering the meetings; considering the way in which the Bill Committee was forced to truncate its work into a very limited period; considering the negotiations that followed; considering the pulling of th…”
“Before turning to my amendment, I must acknowledge the work of the Hillsborough families and their supporters for their courage, tenacity and determination over the past 37 years, which has brought us to this point today.”
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“I simply say to all Labour Members who have bragged this evening about what a wonderful Bill this is and what a wonderful Budget this has been: why are the polls showing that this Government are the least popular in history?”
“Why has there been so little opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny of this smoke-and-mirrors deal? Transparency is needed on costs. The Health Secretary says £1 billion to £1.5 billion. The OBR says £3 billion, and £6 billion has been suggested by other commentators. Which is it? The Government hail it as a great deal for the UK, but the truth is that no matter where this money comes from—the Treasury or existing NHS funds—patients will ultimately pay the price for filling this pharma black hole. It looks like the UK Government are over a barrel on this, with drug companies threatening to pull out of investment in the UK, bullying from an increasingly erratic White House and creeping privatisation of the NHS. The Government need to provide some answers.”
“The new UK-US trade deal in medicines raises huge questions about where the money is coming from to pay for these increases in drugs costs. If the additional costs are to come from within existing NHS budgets—that is, through efficiency savings—I must ask the Government whether they have read the University of York’s impact assessment concerning excess deaths and negative impacts on cancer patients, gastroenterology and respiratory care in particular. If the additional costs are to come from the Treasury, where is this mentioned in the Budget, in this Finance Bill or in the accompanying Red Book? It is certainly not in the Bill, but it should have been. The OBR will be listening and watching, and will get to this in due course. What does all this mean for Scotland in Barnett consequentials?”
“I agree with my hon. Friend completely. I implore the Treasury to reconsider and hear what the hon. Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) said, but if it does not, my party will bring forward a suitable amendment on Report. Labour MPs have talked a big talk about how much money is going to Scotland, but I would like to ask them how much they are taking away from Scotland, whether it is through the APR, the energy profits levy, the excise duty on Scotch whisky or the national insurance hike. Once again, it feels like Scotland’s wealth and success are being used against it by an uncaring Westminster Government. I want to turn to one other issue: NHS drug costs. They are not in the Finance Bill, but my point is that they should have been. I appreciate that you are giving me a bit of leeway, Madam Deputy Speaker.”
“I am glad to hear that the hon. Member respects our desire for Scottish independence. I simply say to him: when will this Government respect the democratic will of the Scottish people? I could go on to talk about energy and the coastal growth fund—two measures that, again, have particularly hurt my constituents—but I will leave it there.”
“(Urgent Question ): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if she will make a statement on UK Government actions on the humanitarian crisis in Sudan.”
“Will the UK Government reinstate overseas development aid to Sudan and reconsider their contribution to international atrocity programmes? British-manufactured weapons—allegedly supplied by the United Arab Emirates—are reportedly still being used by the RSF to conduct horrific massacres. Will the UK Government take action on that and pledge to prevent British weapons from falling into the hands of the RSF? It feels as if the UK Government are not giving the genocide in Sudan the time in this Chamber that it deserves. They have chosen to update the House on Sudan alone on only one occasion. I therefore ask the Secretary of State to commit to updating the House on the Government’s actions in relation to Sudan through a ministerial statement early in the new year.”
“There have been cuts to the UK’s overseas development assistance from 0.5% to 0.3%. In addition, recent reports suggest that the work of the atrocity prevention team at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office is being reduced, and the team that previously monitored global atrocities is being cut. The UK Government refused to contribute to an atrocity prevention programme in Sudan, even after the risk of genocide and mass atrocities became clear. That is indefensible. I want to hear from the Minister why that decision was made. Although the announcement of an additional £21 million in aid for Sudan is welcome, consistently funded development and prevention aid for relevant countries could prevent the UK from forking out millions when future atrocities occur. Today’s displaced people are tomorrow’s asylum seekers.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and thank the Speaker for granting this urgent question. In fewer than two months, since the RSF captured El Fasher on 26 October, the city has been consumed by a killing spree—a series of appalling international war crimes. We have seen reports of relentless assassinations of innocent civilians, with accounts of parents forced to watch the killing of their children; systematic sexual violence, including gang rape; and satellite imagery exposing bloodstained ground and piles of civilian bodies. Current estimates suggest that 60,000 innocent civilians have been killed, with as many as 150,000 people missing since the takeover. Those numbers are likely to be underestimates. Recent sanctions on senior figures in the RSF are welcome, but there are areas where I would ask the Government to go further.”
“It is. In his response to my urgent question, the Minister referred to my presence or otherwise in the Chamber during a previous debate. I want the Minister to be aware, and the record to show, that members of my extended family are Sudanese nationals. Is it in order for the Minister to undermine the validity of my question in that way? Will he apologise?”
“The destruction of the refinery jobs is a repetition of the Thatcherite coal mine closures and the steel plant shutdowns, with no plan for the workers, their families and the communities affected. We have long memories in Scotland. Only with the full powers of independence in areas such as energy policy will the workforce at Grangemouth and elsewhere in Scotland’s oil and gas sector get the priority and the just transition to the future that they so richly deserve.”
“Member for Alloa and Grangemouth, have great potential for such things as sustainable aviation fuel production, but this remains a jam tomorrow promise. This is not remotely a positive trend for our economy, our environment, or, vitally, our national security. I must press the Minister to address these questions. How can she tell the thousands of directly employed and supply chain workers at Grangemouth, Prax Lindsey and the many other sites and companies that are shedding workforce in the oil and gas sector that they are part of shaping the just transition? What assurance can she give those workers that the future is bright, especially when the Acorn project in my constituency faces growing uncertainty, for example? I urge her to address those questions in her speech.”
“Furthermore, it is an uncomfortable truth for the Government that the UK’s uniquely high energy costs—the highest in the G7—are one of the main factors harming the refining sector and industry more generally. I acknowledge that the North sea basin is in decline, but the importance of sovereign capability in national security is often repeated from the Government Front Bench. It is particularly true in defence, but how can defence capability be even remotely claimed if the vital fuel needed to operate tanks, ships and aircraft is acquired in the quantities needed through imports from abroad? Those imports can hardly be described as secure in this currently very dangerous world. Refining sites, as mentioned by the hon.”
“However, the funding announced today amounts to only £7.73 million in total, and the 280 jobs —perhaps more—will not be fully realised for five years, if ever. Where is the rest of the promised £200 million? Where is fulfilment of the promise made by the leader of the Labour party in Scotland? Where is the intervention that occurred for Scunthorpe? People need work now. Families need certainty, but all they face this Christmas is uncertainty. In the meantime, the refinery workforce has been largely cast aside. Looking further afield in Scotland, including Prax Lindsey, the UK has lost a third of its oil refineries just this year, on this Government’s watch.”
“Looking specifically at the situation in Grangemouth in Scotland, Anas Sarwar, the leader of the Labour party in Scotland, said that a Labour UK Government would “step in to save the jobs at the refinery and to invest in that transition…and we would put hundreds of millions of pounds behind it to make it a reality.” No doubt the Minister will cite the £200 million promised to support Grangemouth, and reference has been made to the Scottish Government’s contribution. Of course, today brings good news in that regard, with MiAlgae’s welcome investment announcement on top of the Celtic Renewables project. The Scottish Government are an active partner in funding those projects, and we welcome the investment.”
“We know that the just transition is doomed to fail because of three things: first, the failure to press forward with renewable energy schemes in north-east Scotland at the urgent pace that is required; secondly, the failure to allow new exploration licences while persisting with the crippling energy profits levy on the oil and gas sector; and thirdly, the failure to protect refinery jobs at Grangemouth and Mossmorran. Today I learned that 7,000 business leaders, workers and companies have signed a letter to the Prime Minister in which they demand change to the EPL to avoid the projected 1,000 job losses per month.”
“I want to share the following quote: “‘just transition’ has now become meaningless for so many people and that’s a failure… People should feel like that’s not something done to them, but something they’re part of shaping.” That was said by the Minister for Energy in a recent interview with the Holyrood magazine. Sadly, for thousands of workers in North sea upstream, midstream and—in the case of refining—downstream jobs, a just transition is far removed from the reality that they face. The workers now made redundant are angry at the UK Government’s failure to support their transition. Their families and communities are also angry, as are we, their representatives.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Western. I commend the hon. Member for Brigg and Immingham (Martin Vickers) for securing this important debate. I also acknowledge the contribution of the hon. Member for Alloa and Grangemouth (Brian Leishman), who spoke with his usual passion, but today I believe with a degree of anger as well, and rightly so. A just transition supports and protects existing oil and gas sector workers through—I emphasise “through”—the transition to a world-class renewables workforce, a transition in which Scotland is well placed to lead the world.”
“I note the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, but is he concerned about his own Government’s commitment to this important debate, given the row upon row of empty seats on the Government Benches?”
“I hear what the hon. Member says about oil refineries, and I share many of his concerns—you will have heard what I said—but I have also heard him and his party colleagues talking about “net stupid zero”. Does he actually believe that we should cancel all the wind farm projects and all the grid infrastructure rebuilding? Is that what he firmly believes we should do?”
“Will the Minister address that in his speech, please? I am speaking on behalf of my party and my colleagues here in Westminster. We do not support this.”
“They might remember a programme called “The Prisoner”, filmed in the beautiful port of Portmeirion, and the late, great Patrick McGoohan saying, “I am not a number.” He was Number Six in the programme, which I did not understand when I watched it as a wee boy. Later on, when I read George Orwell’s “Nineteen Eighty-Four”, I understood exactly what was going on there. Labour has no mandate for this proposal. The OBR estimate of £1.8 billion was queried by the Chair of the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee, the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West (Dame Chi Onwurah), and she was right, because £1.8 billion will not do it. When I worked in the health service, IT projects were commonly regarded as the graveyard of many careers, and £1.8 billion will not touch the sides on this one.”
“The point about those countries is that they asked for a mandate from the electorate before they introduced the scheme. That has not occurred here. This policy was not mentioned in the Labour party’s manifesto. I want to draw out further a couple of those examples. In India, the scheme resulted in technical failures and exclusionary practices, whereby people were excluded from public services by the thousand. Estonia has been mentioned by some hon. Members; in 2021, 300,000 identity photographs were stolen there. I am sure the Minister heard me when I said that—300,000. This is not about dealing with little problems and sorting out tweaks here and there. It is about a fundamental flaw in the proposal. I am old enough—as are some others in this Chamber today—to remember when there were two channels on the TV.”
“It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Furniss. I thank the almost 3 million people who have signed this petition, and in particular those in the Public Gallery who have managed to stay for the whole debate—well done. In my constituency, 5,166 signed it. That is an unprecedented number in Aberdeenshire North and Moray East. Every week I meet my team, as so many other hon. Members probably do, and I ask, “What is the biggest thing in my inbox this week?” This is it: digital ID is the No. 1 thing in my inbox. I will not repeat everything that has been said so far in this superb debate, but I want to amplify a couple of points. Many Labour Back Benchers have referred to digital ID schemes in other countries, and we have heard some references to others. I will mention a few: India, Estonia and Australia.”
“I have remarked on the breadth of the parties speaking out against this. My party does not support it. We do not think that it will address the issues; indeed, we think that it will cause more problems than it solves. And we do not think that that amount of money will do it. That will double in size. I therefore oppose this proposal and so do my colleagues.”
“I recognise, as do so many Members across the House, the injustice and maladministration suffered by the so-called WASPI women born in the 1950s. I welcome the recent development announced by the Secretary of State, but will he give an undertaking that if compensation is agreed, it will take into account the poverty suffered by so many of these women and include recompense for their significant legal costs?”
“Leveson 2 was, as I recall, designed to provide stronger regulation for journalism and the media in general. I think we should be concerned about this very sweeping exclusion for journalism, and I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under you, Sir Roger. I rise to support the hon. Member for Wells and Mendip Hills and to draw attention to some examples of why the amendment is important. Members will be familiar with the hacking problem that we had some years ago. In fact, I think one journalist actually served a prison sentence in relation to that. There were many others who may or may not have been involved in that affair. Members will recall how the programme on the Post Office brought huge attention to that scandal and, in fact, led to a major review of the situation. A similar programme called “The Hack”, which may not have gathered as much attention, highlighted the vast extent of the problem of collusion between journalists and the police. Members will also recall that Leveson 2 was cancelled.”
“Before the Minister moves on, one needs to cast one’s mind back to events that took place many months ago, when newspaper and other media reports led to a hotel housing asylum seekers being attacked. One of the rioters sought to burn the hotel down, which could have led to great loss of life. That initially stemmed from media coverage. That is why it is important to try to articulate this provision in a more sensible way.”
“I may be misreading the evidence—if I am, I accept that—but I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the evidence given to us by Chris Minnoch and Richard Miller during the Committee’s second sitting, last Thursday afternoon. I came away from that sitting with a very distinct impression that those two witnesses were of the view that the legal aid system might need to be expanded. We find that view from Mr Minnoch, the chief executive of the Legal Aid Practitioners Group, at columns 60 and 61. He seemed to suggest that his expectation was that legal aid would be expanded in this context.”
“If I interpret the Minister correctly, what she is saying is that, through the application of the Bill, there may be a need to review the position in due course.”
“I rise to support the new clause, the right hon. Member for Liverpool Garston and the hon. Member for Liverpool West Derby. I believe this to be an important proposal. If the new clause is adopted, would it actually result in a saving to the public purse?”
“I beg to move amendment 18, in clause 2, page 2, line 39, at end insert— “(4A) Where a public authority or public official is under an obligation to respond to or assist an inquiry or investigation under subsection (4) they should do so within 30 working days.””
“Member for Liverpool Garston for bailing me out by providing me with a copy of the amendments. The current language of the Bill is imprecise. Whenever a duty is placed upon a public authority to perform a certain duty, the legislation should specify a timescale. Notwithstanding the Minister’s advice as to how things might progress with these amendments, we have suggested a timescale of 30 days. That may not be operationally possible—I am happy to consider extending it if that is what the Minister decides—but we believe that this amendment would significantly strengthen the duty on public authorities to operationalise this Bill.”
“I am very conscious of the evidence that we heard last week and the strength of feeling about the Bill among those affected by not only the Hillsborough tragedy, but the many different tragedies and inquiries that have occurred over the years. That is why we tabled our amendments in a collegiate way to try to strengthen the Bill. That includes these amendments, which, as I understand them—though I am flying blind—seek to replace rather loose wording with a more specific timescale. I have no prior experience of other Bills to go on, but as a mental health officer in a previous life, I know how vital it is to understand the timescales that apply to the duties that fall upon public bodies. The Bill at present— [ Interruption. ] I thank the right hon.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Roger. I have a number of confessions to make. First of all, this is my first Bill Committee in my 18 months as a Member, so I am a complete novice in terms of how these procedures work—I will be guided by the Chair at all times, of course. Secondly, I am afraid that my office has been decimated by illness, so I am flying blind this morning on some of the details of these amendments. I would be grateful if one of the Clerks could provide me with a hard copy of the amendments under consideration, if possible—actually, I am sure I can get one from the table. I welcome the Minister’s statement about working together in a collegiate way to try to ensure that the Bill is as strong as it possibly can be.”
“Some backstop needs to be applied in relation to these responsibilities. I am happy to continue the conversation with the Minister and beg to ask leave withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Schedule 1 Application of duty of candour and assistance”
“I welcome the Minister’s response. Having heard what she said about working with me about how we might operationalise the issue, I am prepared to withdraw the amendments. However, it is important to remember, in that conversation, that justice delayed is justice denied. We have seen so many examples of inquiries and investigations that take years, when months would be much more appropriate. In the circumstances we are speaking about—in this case and the many others that this law will apply to—we must give chairs and leaders of inquiries and investigations some sense of what is reasonable when it comes to public authority responses. We heard from the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale about the health service; I worked in it for 33 years. There is no good reason why it should not be able to respond in if not 30 then 90 days.”
“The hon. Member is making an important point, but am I right in thinking that his motivation—and the motivation of many people in this area—is about getting to the truth, rather than punishing people?”
“To build on my point to the hon. Member for Liverpool West Derby, the issue here is that the criminal responsibility focuses the mind of the person with command responsibility. It requires that person—the chief executive or otherwise—to ensure full compliance. That is the point.”
“The point that has been made to me by folk like those at the Hillsborough Law Now group is that that will allow someone—a chief executive, chief inspector or whoever—simply to say, “I didn’t have the knowledge because X or Y didn’t tell me about it.” The proposed amendment would very clearly put the command responsibility on the chief executive or the leading officer.”
“Earlier, I asked the Minister for an example and she pointed to the national health service. I think that was a fair point, but not every issue here relates to a complicated organisation like an NHS trust, where the chief executive has senior clinicians who have clinical responsibilities that perhaps outweigh the managerial responsibilities of the chief executive. The Minister rightly pointed to paragraph 3 of schedule 3, backing up the point that she was making, and I accept that, but the difficulty with that paragraph, and the way the Bill is currently written, is that it puts the responsibility initially on the body.”
“I beg to move amendment 21, in clause 6, page 6, line 3, at end insert— “(2A) Where an obligation to give notification would have arisen under section 2(3), save for the exemptions in subsection (2), the head of the relevant intelligence service must provide a written notification to the Intelligence and Security Committee of the UK Parliament summarising the acts that may be relevant to an inquiry or investigation.” This amendment aims to provide accountability for intelligence services and their operations in relation to the duty of candour and its exemptions from them.”
“I hope the Minister can take on board the thrust of what I am saying in the amendment, and perhaps she can even see fit to endorse it.”
“My amendment would give a role to the Intelligence and Security Committee, which is a Committee of the House, by requiring the head of an intelligence service, in these specific circumstances, to make a report to the ISC on what the exception is. In even more exceptional circumstances, I understand that the ISC can also communicate with the Prime Minister alone—it has no obligation to do anything else. I believe that that sensible mechanism would give us confidence, in drafting the Bill, that there is no get-out clause. Critically, it would also restore trust even within our intelligence community on how it operates. We do not need to go back over all the evidence that we heard from an employee of the BBC, for example.”
“Nevertheless, my problem with clause 6(2)(a) is that it is basically a get-out clause; it allows the head of an intelligence service to opt out of the overall duty of candour where that would, according to the Bill, contravene the Official Secrets Act 1989. I understand that there are special circumstances regarding the intelligence services, as was ably described to us by Sir Ken McCallum, when he said, “I don’t know who all my agents are, and I am not sure that I know all of their activities.” That is fair enough; one can readily understand why that might be the case. Nevertheless, there should be no overall escape clause for the intelligence services. Having said that, I understand that there will be circumstances in which it is necessary to maintain secrecy about certain aspects of what the intelligence services do.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. We have had an excellent debate on command responsibility, and I am heartened to see a very positive outcome from that discussion. Clause 6 is separate and distinct because it applies to the intelligence services. We heard evidence about the provisions in clause 6 in the evidence session, as well as at a useful special meeting that some Committee members attended with two heads and a deputy head of the three intelligence services. As the shadow Minister pointed out, the evidence from that special meeting and the evidence session has highlighted that there are potentially some contradictory views.”
“I thank the Minister for that. Given she has said that we will see an amendment on Report, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”
“I believe this is important given my experience in the health service, where there is a responsibility on individuals to report child abuse, or where a colleague might clearly be able to see that a surgeon carrying out procedures is repeatedly doing something injurious or harmful. By replacing the word “may” with “must”, we place a responsibility on anyone to blow the whistle on those particular issues. In my working life I have experience, as might others present, of consultants who suppressed information relating to child abuse. We certainly heard similar evidence about surgeons during our evidence session. Colleagues will be able to think of many such examples, which is why it is important that the amendment replaces “may” with “must”.”
“I beg to move amendment 24, in clause 9, page 8, line 12, leave out “may” insert “must”. I am aware that we have debated amendment 48, although perhaps not as fully as I would have liked. In the interests of getting our business done within the time available, I decided not to intervene in that debate. However, I believe that the particular change in amendment 24 is necessary. Where amendment 48 spoke to the duty of candour, amendment 24 speaks to the code of ethics. There are legal minds in the room that are much better informed and trained on legal definitions than my own, but amendment 24 addresses the need to replace “may” with “must” in the code of ethics, as opposed to the duty of candour.”