← LEADERSHIP TERMINAL

UK PARLIAMENT · SITTING

Matt Bishop

MP for Forest of Dean · Labour · United Kingdom

IN THEIR OWN WORDS

“A person may have spent years being told by their abuser that nobody will believe them, that everything is their fault and that no one takes on board what they say. Their abuser might try to bring their children into it and say that they will lose them if they go through the court system.”

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“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Irene Campbell) for opening the debate.”

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“Victims and survivors, domestic abuse organisations, prosecutors and the judiciary should all be involved in that work, and any change needs to be carefully considered.”

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“They might have needed support from family or professional agencies, and they may even be at court when it happens. A late guilty plea can bring relief in some cases, because they do not have to go through court, but it does not undo what they have been through to get to that stage.”

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“That matters, and we should listen to victims and survivors who want to avoid that experience, but we also need to listen to those who feel that the process has allowed the person who abused them to keep them frightened and uncertain until the last possible moment in the courtroom.”

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“They should understand why a reduction has been given, how it was calculated and what protections will be in place afterwards. They deserve the opportunity to ask questions and to get answers that they can understand. This Government have committed to tackling violence against women and girls.”

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The complete record

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  1. “All we ask is that victims and survivors put their trust in the justice system. We need to show them that their experience matters when we decide how the system should work.”

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  2. “They should understand why a reduction has been given, how it was calculated and what protections will be in place afterwards. They deserve the opportunity to ask questions and to get answers that they can understand. This Government have committed to tackling violence against women and girls. Getting the response to coercive control right is an important part of that work. We should also recognise that anyone in this room, including males, can be victims. People who experience this abuse must be able to come forward and receive the protections and support that they need. Paris has asked us to consider whether the current rules are fair to people who have already endured prolonged abuse. I therefore hope that the Minister will agree to meet her and take this work forward.”

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  3. “Victims and survivors, domestic abuse organisations, prosecutors and the judiciary should all be involved in that work, and any change needs to be carefully considered. We need to understand whether it would encourage earlier admissions and whether more cases would proceed to trial, and what that would mean for the people giving evidence. Those are questions to investigate rather than reasons to dismiss the petition. Secondly, how will the Government ensure that attempts to continue abuse during criminal proceedings are identified and dealt with swiftly? When someone is being intimidated, contacted in breach of restrictions or pressured to withdraw, they need a prompt response and practical protections. Lastly, will the Minister look at the information and support that victims and survivors receive when a sentence is passed?”

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  4. “The guidelines recognise that, but I am not sure it is always clear that the person sitting in court and listening to the sentence is aware of the implications. Accepting a guilty plea does not necessarily mean that an offender understands the damage they have done or that their behaviour has changed, which is also important. Victims and survivors deserve a clear explanation of what the court has taken into account. I would like the Minister to address three points. First, will the Government look specifically at how late guilty plea reductions operate in controlling or coercive behaviour cases? That should include proper consideration of Paris’s proposals to remove the reduction when a defendant initially pleads not guilty and later changes their plea.”

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  5. “That matters, and we should listen to victims and survivors who want to avoid that experience, but we also need to listen to those who feel that the process has allowed the person who abused them to keep them frightened and uncertain until the last possible moment in the courtroom. We cannot assume that every late plea is an attempt to continue abuse. Defendants have the right to contest allegations, and there may be legitimate reasons why a plea changes at the last minute, but equally we should be prepared to recognise when perpetrators are using proceedings to exert even more pressure. Our understanding of coercive control must extend to what happens after a report is made, including during the court process. There is also an important distinction between pleading guilty and showing remorse.”

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  6. “They might have needed support from family or professional agencies, and they may even be at court when it happens. A late guilty plea can bring relief in some cases, because they do not have to go through court, but it does not undo what they have been through to get to that stage. Under the current guidelines, a guilty plea at the first stage of proceedings generally attracts a one-third reduction. That reduction will fall as the case progresses, ordinarily reaching a maximum of one tenth on the first day of trial, and that is subject to exceptions. I understand fully the reasons for that approach. An early guilty plea can spare victims and witnesses from giving evidence, reduce delays and free up court time. It is important to remember that even a late plea can spare someone a distressing cross-examination.”

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  7. “They may face pressure from the perpetrator or other members of society to withdraw their statement. They may spend months, or sometimes even longer, waiting for a trial and worrying about giving their evidence. By the time the trial date arrives, they have already been through a great deal. That is why I understand fully the concern behind the petition. Currently, a defendant can maintain a not guilty plea throughout that period, then change their plea on the morning of the trial and still receive a reduction in their sentence. For the victim or survivor, that can be very difficult to accept. It can be difficult for police officers to accept as well. Victims and survivors will have prepared themselves to give evidence. They may have arranged time off work or childcare.”

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  8. “A person may have spent years being told by their abuser that nobody will believe them, that everything is their fault and that no one takes on board what they say. Their abuser might try to bring their children into it and say that they will lose them if they go through the court system. The control affects almost every part of the victim’s daily life, including who they see, how they spend their money, where they go and whether they feel able to make decisions, even for themselves. We should bear that in mind when considering what happens after victims and survivors come forward to the police. It takes an average of about seven years—or it used to when I was policing—for someone even to report something, and as we all know, reporting does not necessarily mean that a person feels safe. They may still feel frightened of the perpetrator.”

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  9. “It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Irene Campbell) for opening the debate. I also thank Paris Shears, who is in the Public Gallery, for bringing forward the petition, and everyone in my constituency and up and down the country who has supported it. When I was a police officer, I worked in CID and child protection. I know how much we ask of people who report domestic and other types of abuse. Victims and survivors have to talk about deeply personal experiences, provide evidence and answer difficult questions, often all while worrying about what will happen when the person they have reported finds out. That is always a big concern among victims and survivors, and in cases of controlling and coercive behaviour it can be particularly difficult.”

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  10. “I thank the Minister for her answer. The Forest of Dean sits on the English-Welsh border, and many of my constituents rely on cross-border transport links to access work, education and healthcare. Does she agree that improving connectivity in border communities can play a significant role in driving economic growth? What consideration is the Treasury giving to supporting investment in key cross-border transport infrastructure?”

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  11. “We have heard from Opposition Members this morning about how defendants should have confidence in the system and about choice and being fair, whether it is in magistrates courts or Crown courts. On the point the Minister has just made, is it not right that victims and witnesses should also feel confident in the system? The only way to achieve that is by levelling things up, because ultimately victims do not have a choice about which court cases are heard in. Witnesses do not have any choice in the matter whatsoever. By doing both, we could get better confidence among every member of society, rather than just defendants.”

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  12. “The hon. Member is presenting her case, her argument, very well and eloquently. To pick up on one point, she said that there were no victims before the verdict, but I would argue that there is always a victim when a case is in court. There is a victim—just because no one has been convicted, the victim is still a victim of a crime. Does she not agree?”

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  13. “I am proud to stand with the Minister and the Government on the Bill. Members on the Committee and in the Chamber have often used the terminology of “abolishing” jury trials. The definition of “abolishing” is formally ending, cancelling or getting rid of something completely, usually by law or official decision. Will the Minister clarify that none of the three points she has made is about abolishing jury trials?”

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  14. “I am listening intently to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. How do the disclosure aspects he is talking about link to the amendment we are discussing?”

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  15. “A constituent of mine, Emma, has been left with significant injuries following poor maternity care during childbirth. For more than 20 years she has been fighting for, but has been denied, corrective treatment on the NHS because it has been deemed cosmetic, despite the clear impact on her mental health and relationships. What steps can the Secretary of State take to ensure that women in such circumstances have access to the treatment that they need?”

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  16. “I will keep it quick. I think we all agree that victims are very brave, and we know that the delays are having a massive effect on them. I think we all agree, too, that the measures in the Bill will reduce timescales—”

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  17. “As the Prime Minister mentioned earlier, the chief executive officer of Travelodge has today again refused to attend a meeting with Members of this House and the other place to answer serious concerns about guest safety and safeguarding. This refusal only deepens the lack of trust in the company’s commitment to protecting women and vulnerable guests. Will the Prime Minister meet me and invite the CEO of Travelodge to discuss the issue? Will he join me in urging the CEO to explain directly to all parliamentarians why she is unwilling to face scrutiny on such an important matter?”

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  18. “Given the recent high-profile case involving the hotel chain Travelodge, which I know the Minister has been involved in, does she agree that tackling violence against women and girls must include clearer legal duties for companies to co-operate fully with the safeguarding expectations of customers?”

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  19. “Many people still have to repeatedly prove who they are to different parts of Government. Does the Chief Secretary agree that a trusted digital identity system could make public services simpler and more secure for citizens, while protecting privacy?”

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  20. “Finally, I will briefly address the removal of the presumption of parental involvement from children. For many years, survivors of domestic abuse and campaigners have raised concerns about what has sometimes been described as a pro-contact culture in parts of the family courts system. Organisations, such as PEEPSA—Prevent, Educate and Eradicate Post Separation Abuse—that support survivors of post-separation abuse have welcomed the Government’s decision to repeal the presumption of parental involvement. They have long warned that a pro-contact culture can risk sidelining the safety of children and survivors.”

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  21. “Giving magistrates greater sentencing powers will allow more cases to be resolved in the magistrates courts, freeing up Crown court capacity for the most serious offences. Similarly, allowing courts greater flexibility in determining where cases should be heard helps to ensure that the most serious crimes are not competing for court time with cases that could be resolved more quickly elsewhere. Another important aspect of the Bill is the modernisation of the courts. For too long, our justice system has lagged behind the technology available to it. Victims still face unnecessary barriers when trying to access transcripts or understand the progress of their case. Using technology more effectively can make the system faster, more transparent and more accessible.”

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  22. “Magistrates in particular give up their time voluntarily to serve the public and uphold the rule of law in their communities. Too often we talk about the pressures on the justice system without recognising the people who are holding it together. They deserve our gratitude, but they also deserve a system that properly supports the work that they do, and that is why this reform is necessary. The reality is that cases today are more complex than they once were. Digital evidence, mobile phone data, body-worn cameras and modern forensic techniques have all improved the fairness of trials, but they have also made cases longer and more demanding to process. The measures in the Bill seek to address that.”

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  23. “Through my work on the Justice Committee, I have heard extensive evidence about the state of our courts. The reality is stark. The Crown court backlog has more than doubled since 2019. Trials are taking longer and for some of the most serious offences, particularly rape and sexual assault, victims are waiting well over a year on average for their cases to conclude. Behind those numbers are real people: victims who cannot move on with their lives, families left in limbo and witnesses forced to relive traumatic experiences as hearings are delayed or postponed. Justice delayed really does become justice denied. Before going further, I want to recognise the people who keep our justice system running: the magistrates, judges and court staff all do extraordinary work.”

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  24. “They believe that the institutions of this country—the police, the courts and the rule of law—will stand behind them. When victims report a crime, they are making a promise to us and to the justice system that they will follow through and endure the issues that they have to endure. The least we can do is to ensure that the justice system keeps its promise to them. However, today that faith is being tested far too often. I regularly meet victims and victims’ groups who speak about the anxiety, uncertainty and sheer exhaustion that comes with waiting for their case to reach court. Many have done everything we have asked of them—reported the crime, given evidence and supported the investigation—only to be left waiting months and years for a conclusion.”

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  25. “At the heart of the reforms before us today is one word and one simple question: the word is victims and the question is, how do we ensure that victims actually receive the justice that they are promised? Hon. Members will know that before coming to this place I served as a police officer over three different forces. During that time I saw at first hand the impact that crime has on people’s lives. I met victims at some of the worst moments that they will ever experience, often after deeply traumatic incidents. What always stayed with me was the faith that victims place in our justice system. They believe that if they report what has happened, come forward and endure the stress of an investigation and a trial, the system will ultimately deliver justice.”

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  26. “I completely agree. Children must never be used as a tool through which abuse can continue after separation. Removing the presumption also sends a clear message that children’s safety and wellbeing must always come first. Reforms of this scale will rightly be scrutinised as the Bill progresses, but the alternative—doing nothing—is simply not acceptable. Without reform, the backlog will grow, victims will continue to wait and confidence in our justice system will continue to erode. Justice is the foundation of public confidence in this country. When victims lose faith in the system, the rule of law itself begins to weaken. This Bill is about restoring the faith and ensuring that when victims come forward, the justice system is ready to stand behind them. For that reason, I am pleased to support the Bill today.”

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  27. “I thank the Minister for his updates. The Home Secretary was absolutely right last week that the public expect a controlled and orderly immigration system. I fully support her plans, but can the Minister say more about how quickly the measures announced will be implemented, and how the Home Office will ensure that they are properly enforced in practice?”

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  28. “I thank the Leader of the Opposition for giving way. [ Interruption. ] Sorry, the leader of the Liberal Democrats—I stand corrected. [Hon. Members: “More!”] It’s coming. I asked the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister yesterday in this House about the speed of bringing legislation forward. Victims, Members of this House and Members of the Lords all want this process to happen as swiftly as possible. Does the right hon. Member agree with the Chief Secretary’s comments and that whatever happens with Andrew or anybody else, we must keep pushing to get legislation brought forward swiftly, not in the years to come?”

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  29. “I hope the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister agrees that any investigation into any matter should be done in an appropriate and timely way. I know that it is an independent investigation, but can he advise the House on what the timescale for the investigation may be and, if it is not very quick, whether it can be brought forward?”

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  30. “I thank the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister for his statement. I welcome comments from the Prime Minister calling for legislation to remove peerages from disgraced peers such as Mandelson, and I hope he will go even further and look at the line of succession in the royal family—I welcome those updates. My constituents, victims groups and everyone I speak to say that it is great to hear the messages, but they want to know when. Do we have any timescales for when this legislation will be brought to the House?”

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  31. “The hon. Member is saying that police funding has been cut and that we are getting rid of police and crime commissioners, but is the money not better spent directly with police forces than in the offices of police and crime commissioners?”

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  32. “The shadow Minister talks about reductions in officer numbers. Has he considered perhaps that those officers were coming to retirement, or were suffering ill health and were on restricted duties, and were not the officers seen by the public on the street, so the public perception is just the same?”

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  33. “I was proud to walk through the Aye Lobby, and I was proud of this House overall, yet that tangible progress has been almost entirely overshadowed by the growing scandal surrounding Mandelson. That should concern every one of us in this House, because we stood on a promise to do politics differently this time. We said that we would turn the page on the scandals, the secrecy and the sense that there was one rule for the powerful and another for everyone else. We said that we would restore trust in public life. Once lost, trust is extraordinarily hard to rebuild.”

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  34. “I want to start by saying that I remain extremely supportive of the Government. I am proud of what we have achieved together in a short space of time. We have delivered massive investment into the NHS and schools. Those are all positive steps, and we are taking meaningful steps to reduce inequality, lift people out of poverty, and support families through the cost of living crisis in an increasingly uncertain world. We have also committed ourselves to tackling violence against women and girls with a seriousness and ambition that are long overdue. Just yesterday, Members from across the House came together to vote to lift hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty, including Members from Reform, the Lib Dems and other parties.”

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  35. “How can we ask victims to trust the system if the system appears unwilling to scrutinise itself? The files released last weekend further highlighted what many already fear: there exists a despicable elite network operating with proximity to power, entangled in international criminality, and shielded for far too long by status and influence.”

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  36. “I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I think we are talking about trust across the House, so that includes every Member of this House, and across both Houses. The Government’s violence against women and girls strategy is one of the proudest achievements of this Parliament. It is the product of years of tireless campaigning by survivors, advocates and frontline organisations who have fought to have their voices heard, but that work and that trust is fragile, and it risks being profoundly undermined when we appear unwilling to apply the same standards of transparency and accountability to those closest to power as we demand elsewhere. How can we stand in this Chamber and say to victims that we believe them and that we will stand with them, while refusing to release full documents relating to serious concerns about one of our own?”

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  37. “How can I go back to them and look them in the eye having voted for an amendment that has the potential to conceal the behaviour of powerful people and their potentially criminal relationships?”

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  38. “Anybody linked should be investigated—simple. If we are not fully transparent about how we vetted the ex-US ambassador in the face of such scandal, how on earth can we expect victims to come forward in future? How can we expect them to trust institutions that seem designed to protect the powerful rather than the vulnerable? I think of the survivors I have met in my constituency and since being elected. I think of the advocacy groups who have worked alongside all of us across the House: organisations such as the Hollie Gazzard Trust, Sarah Taylor from PEEPSA—Prevent, Educate and Eradicate Post Separation Abuse—and campaigners who have poured their lived experience into shaping the VAWG strategy.”

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  39. “Yes, I completely agree. I will get on to the ISC in a second. What would I say to those victims? That transparency matters, except when it is inconvenient? That accountability applies, except when it is uncomfortable? As a party, we promised to halve violence against women and girls. We promised to put victims at the heart of everything we do. Yet today we are being asked to accept an internal review into how the close friend of a known paedophile was vetted—an internal review carried out by the very structures that failed to prevent this in the first place.”

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  40. “Given the strength of feeling among victim and survivor groups—and, frankly, given my own conscience—I cannot in good faith support a position that risks further eroding trust in our commitment to justice. Power and trust go hand in hand. The responsibility that comes with holding public office must never be understated. We are entrusted—all of us—with shaping national policy, representing our communities and safeguarding the most vulnerable. That trust must be earned every single day. So today, not because it is politically convenient to me but because it is morally necessary, I am voting with the victims, I am voting with the survivors and I am voting for the principle that no one, however powerful, should ever be beyond scrutiny.”

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  41. “An independent review by the ISC, coupled with a commitment to release documents, subject to independent legal advice, is not an unreasonable request. The public are not naive, and if such a process is deemed unfavourable by the Government, they will draw their own conclusions. I am not making any accusations today. I am asking reasonable questions on behalf of my constituents and victims who are watching this debate closely. Will No. 10 be candid? Will it show humility? Will it choose transparency over defensiveness? Let me be equally clear about something else: I do not believe the Opposition tabled this motion with victims at heart. We can all see the political point scoring at play, but the motivations of the Opposition do not absolve us of our responsibility.”

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  42. “I thank the hon. Member for her words. How can we mark our own homework on matters of such gravity? I want to be clear. I understand the position the Government find themselves in. I understand the concerns that have been raised about embarrassment, reputational damage, and national and international security. They are serious considerations and should not be dismissed lightly, but if vetting decisions were influenced by compromising relationships, we have a far bigger problem—one that demands scrutiny, not silence; one that requires us to re-evaluate how this country operates on the international stage, and whether transparency and accountability are truly guiding principles or merely slogans.”

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  43. “My constituent, a victim of domestic abuse, has seen her case listed and relisted multiple times since 2023, with delays repeatedly granted due to medical claims by the defendant. Does the Minister accept that repeated adjournments risk denying justice to victims? Will she meet me to discuss how cases like that can be progressed without further re-traumatisation?”

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  44. “I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. Does he agree that the security of this country is the Government’s first and foremost priority at all times?”

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  45. “I thank the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister for his statement. Does he agree that unless this legislation that we are talking about is brought through swiftly, we run the risk of diminishing any confidence that victims of serious sexual abuse and violence have in Ministers and people who make decisions and laws?”

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  46. “As a former police officer of three police forces in this country, I can categorically and honestly say that the many reforms presented in the White Paper are welcomed by my former colleagues and by me. Both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats had the chance to bring these reforms forward. They tried many times, and they failed many times to bring them forward. What makes us different from the previous Governments? I put on record my full confidence in the current Home Secretary to get this done once and for all.”

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  47. “A comment often made to me and my colleagues when I was policing was that as soon as I left the police station in full uniform, I was a sitting target, every single day. Does the Minister agree that the proposal for mandatory whole life sentences for those who murder police officers, prison officers and probation officers sends a clear and unequivocal message that those offenders will be met with the harshest and most serious penalties on offer to the courts?”

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  48. “Parents supported by Harry’s Pals, a small charity, consistently describe the fragmented and emotionally exhausting system of accessing support for children with life-limiting conditions. Will the Secretary of State commit to exploring a dedicated national support pathway for parent carers, including better access to counselling and respite, and will he meet me and Hayley Charlesworth, the founder of Harry’s Pals, who is watching at home today with Harry, to discuss how we can better support families in the Forest of Dean and nationally?”

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  49. “On the weekend we heard Conservative Members talking about the Labour party releasing this prisoner early. That is a rather silly comment, as the Labour party did not release anybody. Does the Secretary of State agree that what has caused, created and contributed to the problems that have enabled these mistakes to happen has not come from the 14 months we have been in power but from the 14 years of austerity and cuts that the Conservatives oversaw?”

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  50. “Victims and families deserve fairness and they deserve to be heard. These are not radical reforms. They are small, practical, compassionate steps that will make a profound difference to people’s lives. I wholeheartedly support the Bill and the progress it represents, but I urge the Government to go even further to deliver real justice for victims and survivors, and to ensure that no one who has already suffered once is ever failed by this system ever again.”

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