Terry Jermy
MP for South West Norfolk · Labour · United Kingdom
“If the farm is doing well, it will invest in new machinery, undertake repairs and maintenance to buildings, and reinvest in the local environment. The lack of profitability and weakened resilience in the industry is hampering that growth and, by default, diminishing the prosperity of rural communities.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Christopher. I thank the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross) for securing this important debate. I am very proud of the more than 500 farms in my constituency. Since I was elected, I have been delighted to meet with more than 100 of them.”
“The UK pig sector is going through a difficult period due to an oversupply of pigs, stagnant demand and falling EU prices that have put a downward pressure on UK prices. At the same time, there are rising costs, exacerbated by the conflict with Iran, as well as the constant risk of disease such as African swine fever.”
“Tackling the power imbalance, not just in the pig industry but in farming more generally, needs to be at the forefront of this Labour Government’s fightback to support British farming.”
“Independent producers are responsible for roughly 50% of the pig herd in the UK, and very often they lose out first and are the most financially squeezed in the industry. So often when I meet farmers, we talk about issues that directly connect with my Labour values, particularly around fairness and justice.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for his leadership on this issue. One of the leading causes of disability, particularly for working-age adults, is stroke. It is a subject I know all too well; my dad had a life-altering stroke at 55, and 10 years later, just days after his 65th birthday, it was a stroke that killed him.”
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“Bird flu is obviously a main concern, as we have seen over the past few months and years, so any methods to reduce transmission are to be warmly welcomed. The Government’s clean power 2030 action plan understands that sustainable biomass plants such as Thetford are key to helping to deliver those environmental goals and targets, decarbonising many sectors of the economy. I look forward to hearing from the Minister today about how sites such as Thetford fit into that plan. In addition to its importance to farming and the environment, our local power station, underpinned by ROCs, is crucial to our local economy and is an important site for jobs. Up to 100 good, well-paid jobs are supported by the station, alongside a greater number of jobs in the associated supply chain, particularly in haulage.”
“This Labour Government are undertaking some fantastic work, getting tough with the polluting water companies and addressing sewage discharge, but significant issues remain. Phosphate and nitrate pollution from agricultural operations is of particular concern. That includes poultry litter-related run-off from the numerous poultry farms across Norfolk and neighbouring Suffolk in particular. That pollution would increase if a key means of dealing with that waste was removed. It is worth mentioning that biomass sites aid disease prevention by incinerating poultry litter, which is one of the primary vectors for transmission of avian flu. Norfolk is the county with the second greatest number of chickens in the country and we are No. 1 for turkeys.”
“Importantly, it gives them a convenient means to dispose of a waste product without needing to spread it on the land. There is huge concern about the impact on rivers and streams if more such waste were to be spread in that way. We have numerous sites of environmental significance across my South West Norfolk constituency, including sites of special scientific interest and special areas of conservation, but I am particularly proud that it has so many rare chalk streams. Sadly, they are all suffering from pollution and sewage discharge after years of inaction by the previous Conservative Government. We simply cannot risk the inevitable environmental consequences of further spreading of waste.”
“Our power station also has an important role in supporting the environment and efforts to achieve net zero. The station’s output reduces CO 2 emissions by 85,000 tonnes each year by displacing the equivalent amount of generation from gas-fired plants. That is equivalent to taking 33,000 cars off the road. Thetford power station provides an important source of renewable electricity by burning some half a million tonnes of poultry litter. It provides an income for farmers and, crucially, a means to deal with that waste without the environmental cost. Given its importance to the farming community, I was pleased to welcome the Minister for Food Security and Rural Affairs to the site just a few weeks ago. Farmers receive a fee for the waste that they provide and it is a welcome source of income for an industry with significant challenges.”
“Local people were concerned about the possible noise, about the smell—of course—and about traffic. Those concerns are long gone: the site is now a proud feature on the landscape and is important to our local economy. It produces home-grown electricity, contributing to our energy security, and it is crucial to the farming community across East Anglia. There are 54 biomass sites in the UK. Were ROCs to expire with no replacement, around 50 of those sites would be forced to close. Critically, the sites at risk of closure are those that provide additional benefits beyond power generation, namely the safe and efficient disposal of waste wood and—as in our case—agricultural residues, preventing waste from being spread on the land or sent to landfill sites.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered the Renewable Obligation Certificate scheme. It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Murrison. I rise for the first Westminster Hall debate in my name, to speak on an important issue in my constituency: the renewables obligation certificate scheme and the future of our biomass-fuelled power station, which is supported by it. This is an important issue, although I must confess that I had rather hoped that my first Westminster Hall debate would be on something more glamorous than the burning of chicken litter. Thetford power station, in my constituency of South West Norfolk, is Europe’s largest poultry litter-fuelled power station and has successfully generated green energy for over 20 years. Being a proud Thetfordian, I remember the power station being built, back in 1999.”
“If we were to have a conversation about other forms of burning, I might have a different view but, frankly, chicken waste will keep coming whether we burn it or not—unless of course our chickens disappear, which I hope is highly unlikely—so this is an important conversation. I am grateful to the Minister for recognising that this is a time-critical issue and that it interlinks with other Departments. The Liberal Democrat spokesperson made reference to my predecessor, who was, of course, synonymous with cheese, pork and lettuce. I very much hope that I am not synonymous with chicken litter, but I will continue to raise this important issue on behalf of residents, and I am grateful for everyone’s contributions to this debate. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered the Renewable Obligation Certificate scheme.”
“I am grateful to all hon. Members who have contributed to this debate. It is right and proper that we have had contributions from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Stafford, as well as a strong representation from Suffolk—I am outnumbered, from a Norfolk perspective, but very grateful for their contributions. I am also pleased that a number of hon. Members picked up on concerns specifically about avian flu, which we have debated in this Chamber a number of times. The Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), spoke about Putin not being able to control wind and solar. I suggest that he cannot control our chickens either, and I am particularly pleased about that. The variety of biomass sources is key.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for this very positive statement. I am naturally delighted that my home town of Thetford in South West Norfolk will receive a share of this money. It is really going to help unlock Thetford’s potential, but after 14 years of so much decline, what measures will be taken to ensure that this money is spent as quickly as possible and makes as much of a difference as possible in the short term?”
“I urge the Minister to speak to the concerns about tribunals specifically. I recognise that solving the crisis in SEND will not happen overnight, but I am encouraged by the Government’s action so far and by the additional money.”
“I have been here before to speak about SEND, and have spoken to the Minister a number of times, but today I want to make a particular point about tribunals. Many county councils are losing scores of tribunal cases. In Norfolk, the Conservative-controlled county council is losing 98% of all tribunal cases—there seem to be no real consequences to the failure to act in the first place—and has racked up a bill of almost £1 million in legal costs in one financial year fighting SEND cases. Money that could have been spent on providing services for families is used to pay legal bills. Local authorities usually engage solicitors and barristers, which was never the intention for SEND tribunals. The way they were set up was supposed to mean that neither side needed legal representation.”
“It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Jenny Riddell-Carpenter) for securing this debate. I know she is doing all she can to improve SEND provision in her constituency and in the wider county of Suffolk. SEND issues in my South West Norfolk constituency are a constant in my inbox. After 14 years of neglect, families are at the end of their tether and are desperate for support. The size of the task facing the Government in repairing trust in the SEND system is clear and frankly daunting. As my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal mentioned, we must not forget that in areas like Suffolk and Norfolk the challenges are exacerbated because of rurality and difficulties accessing services that are often miles away.”
“I was pleased to attend a meeting of the Association of Convenience Stores last week, where we spoke about how crucial these stores are to their communities. Fortunately, I can still think of a number of brilliant local examples bucking the trend in South West Norfolk: Yallops, for example, in Mundford—a post office, a shop and a butcher’s. The successful ones seem to be multi-purpose.”
“It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss. I congratulate the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) on securing this debate. I have enjoyed every one of my visits to Scotland, but none more so than to the very north of Scotland. Many rural areas, such as my own South West Norfolk constituency, have seen services decrease over the past 14 years, often forcing people to travel very long distances to access some of the most basic services. That is difficult enough, particularly if someone is elderly or disabled, but is even more challenging given the lack of public transport options in these communities. Just last week, I was informed of another local convenience store closing in a rural village in my constituency—another blow to our community.”
“The old cottage hospital model and outreach services have all gone, pushing people into giant hospitals. We have got to get people out into the community. I remember going to get my blood pressure checked or my blood taken; I would pop into the town centre or the village to buy stuff while I was there. We have been forcing people out of villages and into towns and cities. We need to talk about connectivity—roads, trains, broadband and mobile phone signals—because the growth potential in rural communities is significant. I am pleased with what the Government have done so far, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.”
“Absolutely; I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. That was very much the conversation we had last week about how we can support rural stores and bring more services together to make them multi-purpose. I recently visited the community-owned Blue Bell pub in Stoke Ferry. The last pub in the village, it now delivers a whole range of vital services over and above the traditional pint. I pay tribute to Jim and Sandra McNeill, two of the driving forces behind that ambitious project. I have a strong passion for delivering services closer to where people are, particularly in our rural communities, rather than, for example, forcing even greater numbers into giant hospitals that are often long distances away. I love the idea of popping down to the local boozer to get a blood pressure check or a flu jab.”
“In particular, I welcome the focus on green skills and the green skills gap in this country. Building a workforce with the skills needed to transition to a greener society is crucial to tackling the climate and nature crisis.”
“One business in my constituency that has been successfully leading the way on apprenticeships is Warren Services in Thetford, under the direction of Richard Bridgman and his son Will. Warren Services is an engineering firm with a proud track record of more than 30 years. To its credit, Warren is committed to building the workforce of the future, and it routinely goes to schools, academies and colleges to inspire young people to pursue a career in engineering and manufacturing. It regularly hosts recruitment days; there is one coming up next week, on 13 February. I do not normally advocate for second jobs, but if anyone wants a level 2 apprenticeship, they are available next week. I am delighted that this Labour Government are doing more to support firms such as Warren and making apprenticeships a key part of their employment offer.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Jardine. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Andrew Pakes) on securing this debate. It is heartening to see so many Members here talking about this important subject, although they seem rather weighted on one side of the room. I was keen to contribute to the debate because in rural areas such as my South West Norfolk constituency, apprenticeships are crucial. They offer a way into many industries in rural communities, including land management, farming, planning services, engineering, energy and nature conservation. So often, I talk to businesses in my constituency that struggle to recruit. They cannot find the people with the right skills, and as a result, their businesses often suffer. Apprenticeships are an important tool for addressing that challenge.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement, and I commend her for the work she has been doing. It must be said that we have inherited an almighty mess from the previous Government, which is incredibly frustrating. She will know how important this issue is to my constituency, which is rural, with too many people on low wages. We have more than our fair share of poorly insulated homes, and fuel poverty is therefore a real concern. Can the Minister reassure my residents, and I am sure many residents across the country, that the news of this latest setback will not delay progress on the improvements in rural communities such as mine?”
“Finally, as the Minister mentioned in his opening remarks, we mark 25 years since Holocaust Memorial Day was created. The UK was one of the founding signatories to the Stockholm declaration on Holocaust remembrance in 2000—we should all be proud of that. Alongside 45 other countries, the UK Government are committed to preserving the memory of those who were murdered in the Holocaust. I know that Members on both sides of the House stand by that commitment. We should never let it falter or waver.”
“Through events such as “80 Candles”, we keep alive the memory of those who lost their lives under Nazi persecution. On Monday, I will attend a Holocaust Memorial Day flag raising ceremony organised by Thetford town council in my constituency. I am pleased that for the first time ever, the council will fly the Holocaust Memorial Day flag. I pay tribute to the mayor of Thetford, Councillor Chris Harvey. It is fitting that the flag is being raised this year, during his term as mayor, to mark the 80th anniversary. As other Members have done, I pay tribute those at the Holocaust Memorial Trust for their work. Their impact on education over two decades is testament to their dedication and commitment. I have certainly benefited from their work.”
“It is a privilege to take part in this debate and to have heard so many poignant contributions. A number of Members have spoken about the importance of education, which increases yet further as time passes. Next week, I have the distinct privilege of attending one of the “80 Candles for 80 Years” events to mark the 80th anniversary. I was honoured that the Lotus academy trust in my South West Norfolk constituency invited me to join that service and be part of a very special nationwide arts and education project to mark the event. As a former youth worker, the importance of education and of continuing the message is pertinent to me. The unimaginable horrors and crimes of the Holocaust were a defining moment in the 20th century.”
“That initiative is run alongside the church’s regular coffee mornings and community group, which provides free access to computers and the internet—a provision that too many in rural communities sadly do not have.”
“In South West Norfolk, like many rural constituencies, these buildings are so often more than a place of worship; they can be the very lifeblood of the local community, providing services to people who otherwise may miss out. One church in South West Norfolk that exemplifies this is St Mary’s in Feltwell. I was fortunate enough to visit the church in 2024, and I was deeply impressed by the work it does to support the local community in Feltwell. That includes the food pantry, which sees a group of local volunteers set up a small shop with essentials at greatly reduced prices to help villagers. They also provide crisis packs free of charge to those in need.”
“When a church has been pulled down, the country seems empty or is like a necklace with a jewel missing.” I cannot come up with words quite as poetic as John Betjeman’s, but I can tell Members that the churches in my constituency are treasured. In many cases, they are of an historic nature. We must make sure that we preserve them for generations to come, as previous generations have done for us. Nearly half of all grade I listed buildings in England are churches. These buildings are largely run by volunteers who have to raise the funds needed for repairs. The ability to reclaim the VAT on these works makes an enormous difference, as we have heard from others, particularly at a time when costs for building works are substantially increasing.”
“It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Western. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Bradley Thomas) on securing this debate. My constituency of South West Norfolk is home to 138 places of worship, all unique in character and valued by the local community. That includes Wiggenhall St Germans church just outside King’s Lynn, a 13th-century grade I listed church, which wrote to me just recently about the very topic being debated. I am a proud Norfolk boy, and I am reminded of what the English poet and writer John Betjeman said: “Norfolk would not be Norfolk without a church tower on the horizon, or round a corner up a lane. We cannot spare a single Norfolk church.”
“St Mary’s is just one of 20 churches in South West Norfolk that has benefited from the listed places of worship grant scheme in the last financial year, but it remains on the heritage at risk register and is in desperate need of repair. I urge the Minister to consider what can be done to protect our most precious historic places of worship.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention; it has been wonderful today to hear so many examples of community services run through churches. We all have examples in our constituencies. When I went to Feltwell, I was so impressed by the work of Sue Garland and the other volunteers. It was a joy to see that they are preserving the building, but importantly giving it life and purpose. These provisions are crucial and highlight what our local places of worship provide in their communities. That is why it is vital that we do all we can to support their maintenance. I would welcome the Minister clarifying whether the grant scheme can be renewed for another year.”
“I appreciate the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making about whether the role would be full-time, part-time or maybe just a few hours a week. But the fundamental issue for me is that the more restrictions or stipulations we mandate, the more we fundamentally influence the independence of the role, which was part of our open discussion on Tuesday. The more amendments, rules and procedures that we dictate, the more we weaken independence. Does he recognise that concern?”
“In a surgery just two weeks ago, I had a serving member of the armed forces who is no longer deployable because he has to homeschool his child as a result of failure in relation to SEND. Does the shadow Minister agree that one of the big challenges is that this is widespread across the whole country? It is not just a problem for us in Norfolk. If my constituent were to be deployed elsewhere, there would be exactly the same challenges, because the issue is widespread across the whole country.”
“I am all for cross-party working, but I was struck by the hon. Member’s earlier comments about children. Does he accept that, because of the legacy of so many years of failure, any solutions will be much more difficult to find because we will have dental issues progressing as children grow older?”
“Q Sir Andrew, I work closely with SSAFA. You have some fantastic volunteers in Norfolk. Thank you for the work your organisation does. Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: Thank you very much.”
“I was effectively on one side as the policy lead in the Ministry of Defence and she was on the other side. Success to me would have been more complaints. For those of you who have not met Nicola, she is a very approachable person, but trying to get people to have the confidence to step forward, to go to her and say, “This ain’t fair,” was really difficult. The intent is good and I support it, but I think building confidence will continue to be a challenge.”
“The challenge we find with many service personnel, particularly veterans, is that they are often too proud to admit they are finding life difficult, perhaps while they are serving and often once they have left the military. They do not want to admit they are a charity case. Going back to the question of trust, this commissioner is going to have to work hard to say, “I really am here for you. I am here to champion your issues in whatever way we feel is collectively appropriate.” They will also have to work hard to ensure that the chain of command does not get defensive, but instead sees this as an opportunity. I was not serving when Mariette Hughes was the Service Complaints Ombudsman, but when Nicola Williams was doing the job we talked regularly.”
“Prior to my current role, I was a local councillor for a number of years. I worked with SSAFA to encourage people to come forward, first of all to raise an issue, but more often to formalise the issue. Encouraging people to go through that process was quite a barrier. Do you think these proposals will encourage people to be prepared to raise and formalise issues? Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: That is a great question. Your previous session discussed how to generate trust. I thought that was a good question too because this person must be trusted. They have to be sufficiently trusted by the chain of command, but equally trusted by the community, to fairly champion their views without, when appropriate, revealing their identity.”
“Thinking about generation Z and beyond, in an area in which agency at the individual level is increasingly important, that matters.”
“In moving to “commissioner” we have a chance to think about seeing the new post through a different prism and communicating that well, both to the current armed forces serving community and to those who are to come. If I may go slightly off-piste, the average tenure of somebody who is serving is about seven years. In that time, most individuals will graze through without ever coming across the ombudsman. Looking forward, one of our challenges—probably a challenge both for the commissioner’s post and for the wraparound of the Department—is to ensure that young men and women who join in the future recognise that function and the idea of a champion who sits outwith the chain of command and gives them a chance to have their voice heard.”
“Q The word “commissioner” means different things to different people. Do you have any views on the use of that title and do you think it is appropriate? Lt General Sir Nicholas Pope: I heard the answers given by the previous panel. I am relaxed about this. What is in a word? We use “veteran” to pick up smorgasbord of individuals. We use “service” for the sector indivisibly. Moving from ombudsman to commissioner does, I suppose, demonstrate a shift in a position. If we use a word from a communications perspective, to get people to think differently, there is utility in that. Having spoken to Mariette about this, although I do not want to put words into her mouth, I suspect she feels she is prescribed in some of her activities by the way that her job has been set up.”
“It is summed up in a few small sentences, but dealing with welfare issues could be incredibly complex and wide-ranging. There are very few welfare issues that do not straddle the serving family and go into the veteran space in a sort of time continuum. Those are all important parts of the messaging of what the role is going to be about.”
“That is why it is absolutely critical that the Bill is fit for purpose and, more importantly, that the policy and framework that sit beyond it, in terms of implementation, are right as well, and that we are absolutely clear where the boundaries and responsibilities for the office lie, and also the gearing between it and other offices. That goes back to one of the issues raised a few times in the debate, which is the scope of the role—looking predominantly at the community subject to service law and how that relates to the wider military community, going back to that continuum of service. How that all interlocks with what is currently provided by the Minister for Veterans and People and veterans commissioners, where they exist, is all very important in the messaging and communicating with the community. It is a wide remit.”
“Q My question follows nicely on from that. Colonel Doherty, I was reading your CV in the paperwork and I was struck by the range of experience and the number of different locations that you have served in. I join colleagues in thanking you for that service; I was pleased to read that report. Given your experience of active service, and now your new role—your experience on both sides—do you feel that the commissioner would be seen as sufficiently strong and independent to encourage people to come forward? Col. Darren Doherty: The legislation is certainly strong enough to put them in that position. Again, it goes back to the type of individual selected for the role and the trust and the confidence that they build with the community. I can speak only on behalf of the Army. It will take a period of time to educate people on what the role is.”
“I want this role to be able to carry a really bright spotlight, to shine on the issues that are affecting our people—because ultimately, if we do that, we recruit more people, we retain more people and more people want to rejoin our armed forces, improving morale and service life. That ultimately improves our operational effectiveness as a military.”
“However, I think it is the way that the commissioner is appointed, how they operate and how they build trust and confidence with our people that will build the independence in the role. We can legislate for independence and separation, as we have done, but it is the operation of the role that will build trust with the people. That is why I will expect the commissioner to be on the road, visiting our forces and having those conversations, in order to build the trust. I will expect them to have a robust scrutiny process in terms of their appointment, and to be able to give Ministers a tough ride on the delivery of the issues that matter. That is the reason we are doing this. If this role did not have any teeth, there would be no point in legislating for it.”
“Q In the very first witness comments, I was struck by the observation that, because the current ombudsman role is funded by the Government, there is perhaps an acknowledgment that that weakens the role’s independence. Of course, the new commissioner will be funded by the Government as well. Are you aware of that concern? I appreciate Helen Maguire’s comments about independence. Are you confident that there are sufficient safeguards around independence to encourage people to come forward? Luke Pollard: I am. The reason we have drafted the legislation as we have is to be absolutely clear about a separation of this commissioner’s office from the Ministry of Defence. I think the point that Mariette was making in her evidence is that the funding has to come from somewhere.”
“As a former youth worker and a former school governor, I know that this initiative will make a huge difference, and I have written to all the schools in my constituency encouraging them to apply. Will the Secretary of State please outline the next steps?”
“I know that the Minister is passionate about farming and biosecurity. He is very well respected by farmers in my constituency. He cares passionately about these issues and all farming-related matters. I hope that in summing up he will provide further reassurance for my residents on the points that have been raised.”
“That research is critical for our understanding. In Britain I like to think that we are a global leader when it comes to scientific study; that should be championed. I vividly remember walking around the BTO nature reserve in Thetford, and along our river corridors and forests, and seeing scores of dead birds—wild birds primarily. It was absolutely devastating. One could not miss the sheer number of dead birds, which were evident. Avian influenza significantly impacted our wild bird populations across Norfolk and further afield. Given all the other environmental challenges that we face, that was one that we could have done without. I congratulate the Minister and the whole Government on the work that they are doing to put Britain back on the map when it comes to leading on environmental policy.”
“Friend, as a Member for the eastern region, knows that our region has 20% of all the UK’s poultry flock, and that such outbreaks can break farms. Government figures show that the average cost to the Government could be between £2 million and £4 million per outbreak. The Government need to prepare for that, and I welcome the measures announced so far. Prevention, as is so often the case, costs less in the long run, whether in public health, for the farming community or at supermarket checkouts. I am proud to say that the British Trust for Ornithology headquarters is located in Thetford in my South West Norfolk constituency, and its scientific research and dedication are more important than ever before given the biodiversity loss, climate crisis and biosecurity challenges that we face as a country.”
“I note with great concern a report commissioned by Compassion in World Farming, which found that the risk of swine and bird flu pandemics could be increased by intensive pig and poultry farming. The farms concentrate significant numbers of confined animals. In the Methwold proposal we are talking about almost a million chickens and 14,000 pigs on one site, increasing biosecurity risks. That is not the only concern that we face. In 2022-23, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk observed, Norfolk was badly affected by avian influenza. In the past few years we have seen an unprecedented outbreak, and more than a fifth of all bird flu cases in England have occurred in Norfolk. I am sure that my hon.”