Mark Isherwood
Welsh Conservative · Wales
“Diolch. I recently visited a north Wales residential home with Care Forum Wales to discuss issues threatening the sector’s viability. In light of the UK autumn budget, these included the extra cost of national insurance contributions and the national living wage, and concern that, although the national framework for the commissioning of c…”
“I will just conclude by repeating a couple of lines, however, in my speech, when I referred to the acceptance of two recommendations in principle only, including the recommendation about the former president of the amgueddfa ’s appointment to the role reviewing Cadw.”
“Whilst the committee were satisfied that seeking a settlement was preferable to proceeding to an employment tribunal, having reviewed the private legal advice shared with the committee, we were not satisfied with the rationale for the settlement figure arrived at, which was based on a notice period of 22 months, when the former director g…”
“Natasha Asghar again referred to the background of wider funding shortages at amgueddfa , the lack of adequate policies being in place, the impact of the Government's arrangements and the high cost to the public purse.”
“He submitted a complaint to the Welsh Government about the conduct of the former president of the amgueddfa in June 2021, alleging inappropriate actions and behaviour. However, the former director general had told auditors that he had raised concerns about governance with the Welsh Government and the former president since December 2020.”
“You concluded that you hoped that the Welsh Government has learned lessons not reflected in its response. The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership rightly stated that Amgueddfa Cymru is one of our most treasured cultural organisations.”
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“As I concluded, the committee will be scrutinising the Welsh Government's oversight of its arm's-length and public bodies with interest, and we encourage all other equivalent policy committees to do likewise. Diolch yn fawr.”
“I will just conclude by repeating a couple of lines, however, in my speech, when I referred to the acceptance of two recommendations in principle only, including the recommendation about the former president of the amgueddfa ’s appointment to the role reviewing Cadw. This is concerning, when the previous Permanent Secretary previously gave the Public Accounts Committee in the last Senedd a commitment to end this practice in light of Members' concerns that 'acceptance in principle' did not constitute an adequate response. We hope and trust that that is still the Welsh Government’s position. As I have mentioned before, in leading debates in this Chamber in this capacity—. I have emphasised that we need the Welsh Government to revisit that and revisit the reasons why, in 2018, it then felt that that was the appropriate position to take.”
“You concluded that you hoped that the Welsh Government has learned lessons not reflected in its response. The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership rightly stated that Amgueddfa Cymru is one of our most treasured cultural organisations. He referred to progress being made, but then to only accepting five of the committee’s recommendations, which fails to provide the assurances that we seek and the public needs to hear. He did say that work is progressing, which the Welsh Government will keep the committee aware of, and that he has taken on board the points made about the diversity of boards and budgeting pressures. He concluded that lessons do have to be learned and challenges taken forward.”
“Natasha Asghar again referred to the background of wider funding shortages at amgueddfa , the lack of adequate policies being in place, the impact of the Government's arrangements and the high cost to the public purse. She stated, quite rightly, that it is shocking that the Welsh Government rejected our recommendation of a review of grievance procedures at other similar bodies. And she asked what discussion there has been in the Welsh Government about risks applied to the appointment of the former president to the role of reviewing Cadw. Heledd Fychan, as you said, lessons need to be learned. We need transparency and consistency. You referred to the Welsh Government's hands-off approach when these things need to be sorted, and to stop seeing the same faces popping up on boards.”
“Diolch. Thanks to everybody for their contributions. Adam Price, as you said, Amgueddfa Cymru is one of our most important national institutions and it's therefore a core concern if something goes wrong with one of these. You highlighted that this raises broader questions about the governance of the public sector and arm's-length bodies and that Welsh Government also has to accept its responsibilities here when it became aware of serious governance issues but allowed them to fester. As you said, to then move to self-assessment of public bodies is wrong, when this has, instead, illustrated the need for more rigorous audit controls.”
“This includes a payment made to the former chief operating officer, who retired on grounds of ill health. This is especially troubling in the current financial climate, when these costs could have been avoided had stronger governance arrangements been in place. The committee was saddened to hear about the financial pressures facing Amgueddfa Cymru, with around 90 jobs to be lost and a voluntary severance scheme in place.”
“Whilst the committee were satisfied that seeking a settlement was preferable to proceeding to an employment tribunal, having reviewed the private legal advice shared with the committee, we were not satisfied with the rationale for the settlement figure arrived at, which was based on a notice period of 22 months, when the former director general's contract of employment specified only a 12-month notice period. Indeed, the Auditor General for Wales concludes that the amgueddfa had not been able to demonstrate that it acted in the best interests of the public purse. At the time of the auditor general's public interest report into this matter, the total potential costs of the payment to the former director general were £325,698, with further external legal and professional costs of £419,915, meaning a total settlement of £757,613.”
“The arrangements in place only applied to employed staff and did not cover grievances raised by senior staff and involving a non-executive board member, such as the former president. The committee was extremely concerned that the arrangements for dealing with complaints and grievances proved wholly unsatisfactory. The breakdown of relationships at a senior level was a foreseeable risk that should have been reflected in their policies and procedures.”
“He submitted a complaint to the Welsh Government about the conduct of the former president of the amgueddfa in June 2021, alleging inappropriate actions and behaviour. However, the former director general had told auditors that he had raised concerns about governance with the Welsh Government and the former president since December 2020. The dispute between the parties escalated over a long period, with the director general submitting grievances in September 2021 and January 2022, with claims eventually submitted to an employment tribunal in October 2021 and August 2022. The Auditor General for Wales concluded that Amgueddfa Cymru did not have adequate policies to deal with concerns and grievances of this nature.”
“The auditor general's subsequent work exposed serious governance issues relating to the financial settlement with the former director general, the details of which are set out in his public interest report, which may interest Members. Amgueddfa Cymru was also subject to a Welsh Government tailored review, whose report was published in July 2023 and made 77 recommendations, 27 of which related to governance. In his public interest report, the auditor general concluded that the settlement with the former director was 'novel' and 'contentious', an opinion the committee shared. On 5 December 2022, Amgueddfa Cymru settled a series of claims made by the former director general of the amgueddfa .”
“Diolch. The Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee's grateful for the opportunity to discuss our report on Museum Wales Amgueddfa Cymru's accounts for 2021-22, which raised serious governance issues that led to significant costs for the public purse. The committee's report was published on 26 June this year. The Auditor General for Wales raised concerns in the amgueddfa's financial reports for 2020-21 and 2021-22. This led to significant public interest in the circumstances surrounding a series of disputes involving the organisation's former director general, former president and former chief operating officer.”
“Diolch. I recently visited a north Wales residential home with Care Forum Wales to discuss issues threatening the sector’s viability. In light of the UK autumn budget, these included the extra cost of national insurance contributions and the national living wage, and concern that, although the national framework for the commissioning of care and support in Wales code of practice, which came into force on 1 September this year, under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, is intended to move current local authority commissioning practices away from price towards quality and social value, and ensure people have voice and control over their care and support, Denbighshire was making placements solely on the grounds of cost, stating that when it decides to meet a citizen’s eligible needs for care and support by arranging care home accommodation, it's obliged to source that accommodation at or as near to a rate it believes is sustainable and cost-effective, known as its indicative rate.”
“There’s a need to significantly increase its investment, which is currently insufficient, to address the scale of the challenge in Wales, with opportunity to use consequentials from the UK Government’s Warm Homes plan to help to do this. I call for a Welsh Government statement accordingly.”
“I call for a single Welsh Government statement on tackling fuel poverty in Wales. Tomorrow is National Energy Action’s Fuel Poverty Awareness Day, which I’m pleased to be supporting as chair of the Senedd’s cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency. In Wales it is estimated that up to 98 per cent of low-income households are living in fuel poverty. With energy prices set to stay high throughout the winter—well above pre-crisis levels—many households will struggle to keep warm and well. There’s an urgent need to improve the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes in Wales, with energy bills that are permanently low. At the joint meeting of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency and the cross-party group on housing last week, the discussion included the Welsh Government’s Warm Homes programme.”
“Given the high cost of bus franchising evidenced in Manchester, which included a council tax levy, how, therefore, do you plan to maximise these benefits, what specific work are you doing with local authorities in north Wales and elsewhere to identify opportunities for bus priority schemes and to provide capital investment to deliver them, and how do you plan to support the industry to navigate the additional funding challenges created by the additional cost to national insurance, following the UK Government budget, estimated at £800 to £1,000 for each employee?”
“Diolch. Thank you. Responding to my colleague, the shadow transport Minister Natasha Asghar, regarding bus services yesterday, the First Minister stated that the finance Minister must operate in line with her priorities, and that the Welsh Government is working with Transport for Wales and local authorities to plan and implement bus networks. Independent research compiled by the Confederation of Passenger Transport, which found that every £1 of additional investment and improving bus services would generate £4.55 of further economic benefits, has already been referred to.”
“I’ll share the concern expressed to me on my visits to these schools that the children who will be hardest hit are children with additional learning needs who have been placed there because they need the environment—the small classes, the peace, the quiet—that meets their needs, which they can't get and haven't received in the state sector.”
“'This...is a significant new cost that many organisations simply cannot absorb without a corresponding impact on their service delivery.' The Welsh Government relies on these services, so what, if any, support will you provide the charitable sector to safeguard these vital services and mitigate this short-sighted policy?”
“Following on from one of your answers earlier, one of the damaging consequences of the UK Government's recent budget was the national insurance hike on charities and third sector bodies. Office of Budget Responsibility figures show that the average annual tax increase for employers will be in excess of £800 per employee. With approximately 134,500 people working in the Welsh voluntary sector, even with part-time work this would suggest a total increase in the sector's national insurance bill of around £100 million a year. As the WCVA's letter to you states: 'Many voluntary organisations in Wales operate under tight financial constraints and play a vital role in delivering essential services alongside the public sector, yet only public sector employers are set to be reimbursed for these increased costs.”
“However, the Auditor General for Wales's report on building safety in Wales last year stated that responsible bodies, particularly local authorities and fire and rescue, are unable to effectively discharge their responsibilities and ensure that buildings in Wales are safe. So, what action are you taking with local authorities to address the concerns expressed by the auditor general about the absence of robust plans, clear decision making and adequate resources, so that they can ensure that buildings in Wales are safe?”
“Following the Grenfell Tower disaster, there was a clear and urgent need to reflect on arrangements for building safety in Wales and across the United Kingdom, and to establish whether the building safety sector is meeting its purpose. The UK Government's response to the Hackitt inquiry was contained in the Building Safety Act 2022, Part 3 of which also applies to Wales, including allowing Welsh Ministers to define a higher risk building, requiring councils in Wales to carry out work on higher risk buildings and requiring the registration of building control staff. The principal difference between England and Wales is the role of a new building safety regulator, which will be carried out by local authorities in Wales.”
“Finally, during the consultation phase of the draft mental health strategy, deaf people in Wales were not identified as a marginalised group, and during the Minister's statement on mental health and well-being here in Plenary on 8 October, there was no mention about deaf people's mental health. They therefore urge the Minister to check the mental health strategy accordingly. And this, again, is such a serious matter, it merits a statement by the Minister to the full Senedd accordingly. I'd be grateful if you could seek to facilitate both those oral statements to the full Senedd accordingly.”
“Yesterday the All Wales Deaf Mental Health and Wellbeing Group—a group of deaf and hearing professionals and charities—wrote to the Minister, saying they're keen to ensure that deaf people in Wales are really and truly part of the new mental health strategy for Wales. Wales is the only UK country without a deaf mental health service, and yet, deaf people are twice as likely to experience a mental health problem than hearing populations. They met as a group with you and other Ministers in October 2022, and have been told on several occasions to wait for the new mental health strategy. But, at this point, they are nervous that deaf people may be left behind, which has happened so many times before.”
“After meeting STAND North Wales earlier this month, when families discussed their experiences and expressed the significance of a lifetime award for them, the civil servant in the Cabinet Secretary for transport’s team, with responsibility for blue badge policy, stated to them that he will now spend some time working through the issues that they raised, and discuss them with the Cabinet Secretary so that Welsh Government can respond in detail to them. But this critical issue merits more than that. It requires a statement to the full Senedd, and an opportunity for Members across the Chamber to question the Cabinet Secretary regarding this. Briefly, if I may, I also call for a statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on the inclusion of deaf people in the 10-year mental health strategy for Wales.”
“During questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning in July, I spoke of the grave inconsistencies in efficiencies and the injustices arising from the Welsh Government’s blue badge scheme in Wales guidance for local authorities, and referred to the Senedd petition to make blue badge applications lifelong for individuals who have a lifelong diagnosis, submitted by Stronger Together for Additional Needs and Disabilities North Wales community interest company, who told the cross-party group on disability that they had discovered through research that local authorities were either unaware of lifetime awards, or had a different understanding of what it meant.”
“I would also like to call for an oral statement here by the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales on blue badge parking permits, because people are being hurt. They’re not being told that they can appeal by local authorities. When they come to Members of the Senedd and are told they can, and refer it, they’re then faced with a 15-page form that many struggle to deal with.”
“Can you not see that we're at risk of repeating history if we continue to increase borrowing in this way and the markets lose confidence? We could end up with bigger cuts, as were forced upon us—”
“Thank you. You've referred to a few historical budgets that I'd be happy to debate, but there isn't time. Gordon Brown ignored international warnings, including from the IFS, that if he continued to increase borrowing faster than the growth rate of the economy at a time of growth, there would be a day of reckoning, and he left the biggest deficit in the G20, which has since been defined as austerity, meaning not having enough money. Now, by increasing borrowing in the way we have, by removing headroom and risking bigger cuts in the future, we're risking—”
“Age Cymru also contacted me in the context of the Equality Act after respondents to their annual survey noted that public spaces were becoming increasingly inaccessible for older people due to the disappearance of public toilets, benches, dropped pavements and other essential pieces of infrastructure. What actions can you therefore take when breaches of the legislation such as these are identified by external bodies and people with lived experience?”
“Thank you, and, of course, they have limited powers to pursue individual cases. But, for over nine years, I've worked with disabled people and others across Flintshire seeking to work with Flintshire County Council to remove all barriers along the Wales coastal path, managed by the council, allowing access for all. The campaign includes TCC, a charity that supports 40 member groups in tackling social justice issues within north-east Wales, Cycling UK, TheFDF Centre for Independent Living, Sustrans Cymru, Disabled Ramblers UK, Wheels for Wellbeing, Chester Wheelers, and people with lived experience of the impact of these barriers on them. The current situation contravenes both the UK Equality Act 2010 and the legal and policy frameworks of the Welsh Government and Flintshire County Council itself.”
“5. A yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn monitro sut y mae awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu dyletswyddau o dan Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb 2010? OQ61777”
“Well, noting the statement earlier by yourself on support for housing delivery, issued only 50 minutes ago, do you agree that we need a whole-market solution to the housing crisis in Wales? And if so, how will you co-produce, co-design and co-deliver solutions with housing providers, including private landlords and house builders, with social landlords and local authorities across the whole sector?”
“Indeed, they say, the latest Welsh Government data on housing supply confirms that new dwellings built in Wales in the 2023-24 financial year was the second lowest on record. Furthermore, the Welsh Government's 'Future Wales: The National Plan 2040' estimates that on average 7,400 additional homes were required annually from 2019-24, with the majority for market sale or rent. However, the average number completed over the last five years was just 5,498. They also—.”
“Thank you for answering some of the questions, but you didn't respond to the question about the National Residential Landlords Association highlighting an acute shortage of homes for private let and calling for Welsh Government action accordingly. And, of course, the previous Conservative Governments dealt with the largest deficit in the G20, a global pandemic and a global cost-of-living crisis, and still left a deficit, as a proportion of gross domestic product, at two and a half times less than had been left by the UK Government in 2010. But that aside, I was trying to avoid those sorts of comments today. The Home Builders Federation stated last month that Wales continues to face a housing affordability crisis, caused in part by a lack of new supply of housing over many decades.”
“How, therefore, do you respond to calls by the National Residential Landlords Association for Welsh Government action to tackle an acute shortage of homes for private let, with demand outstripping supply, not only putting upward pressure on rents, but also undermining tenants’ purchasing power in the market, making it more difficult to hold bad and criminal landlords to account, and to the statement by Community Housing Cymru—the voice, as you know, of housing associations in Wales—that, as we come up to Welsh Government budget time, there is a need in particular to at least sustain the housing support grant in real terms and to keep people in their homes?”
“Thank you, but the question was: what assurances will you provide that the allocation for affordable homes funding you receive in consequentials from the UK Government will be fully allocated to affordable housing in Wales? Following on from that, last week, Shelter Cymru published a new report showing that, in 2023-24, the total cost of temporary accommodation in Wales reached £99 million, more than double what it was in 2020-21, highlighting the significant increase in temporary accommodation in Wales, and the human impact of this, with over 11,000 people, including almost 3,000 children, now living in such places. Their research also shows increasing reliance on private sector provision.”
“And as Community Housing Cymru states, what they really need is a longer term, sustainable multi-year settlement. What assurances can you therefore provide that the affordable homes funding, which the Welsh Government will receive in consequentials from the UK Government—and, hopefully, more—will be fully allocated to affordable housing in Wales?”
“Diolch. Labour Welsh Governments slashed funding for housing from 1999, ignoring repeated warnings of a housing crisis, and setting in train the housing supply crisis, which has led to almost 140,000 people on social housing waiting lists now. The 2012 UK housing review stated that, by 2009-10, the Welsh Government had by far the lowest proportional level of housing expenditure of any of the four UK countries, and the Welsh Government has continued to lag ever since. North Wales housing associations have highlighted now the Audit Wales report, which found that, without additional funding, the Welsh Government will miss their 20,000 target by up to 4,140 homes. As the Bevan Foundation states, the delivery of new social homes is lagging behind the Welsh Government’s aspirations, as well as the reality of growing demand.”
“Well, let's hope so. But, again, continuing with your discussions with Cabinet Members as Counsel General, the Law Commission for England and Wales is currently reviewing the law on social care for disabled children in England, seeking to make the social care system for families with disabled children fairer, simpler and up to date. Disability charities and my own casework confirm that problems, including overlapping assessments, confusion and inefficiency, postcode lottery to access services, and blurring between child protection and need, are clearly replicated in Wales. What engagement are you therefore having with the Law Commission for England and Wales regarding their current review of the law on social care for disabled children in England? And what, if any, discussions are you having with Cabinet colleagues in the context of this?”
“They've made three recommendations for immediate change at Welsh Government level to ensure criminally exploited young people are effectively safeguarded and supported: investment in targeted exploitation prevention and support services for exploited young people; exploitation recognised as a distinct form of child abuse; and a welfare-first approach in the management of offences committed by exploited children. Given your statements on devolution of youth justice and probation, what discussions are you therefore having with Action for Children and Cabinet colleagues regarding these?”
“Thank you. I'm here articulating the calls by the Law Society, trying to avoid partisan comments. But continuing with your discussions with Cabinet Members as Counsel General, Action for Children published the findings to the Jay review of criminally exploited children in March of this year, an extensive UK-wide review of exploitation, led by Alexis Jay CBE. Last month their first follow-up report on the review, 'I don't want to go down that road', examines the extent of the harms caused to exploited children across the UK by using safeguarding incident data from their criminal exploitation services.”
“Level 7 apprenticeships could help to mitigate our ageing solicitor population, as recommended in the 2019 Jomati review, commissioned by the then Welsh Government. Their introduction in Wales could, then, also help increase the number of solicitors in areas where there are currently advice deserts. So, what discussions have you now had, or will you be having with the Law Society and Cabinet members about introducing level 7 apprenticeships in Wales?”
“Diolch. When I questioned you here last month, I asked what engagement you’re having with the Law Society in Wales regarding their calls for both improved data on the Welsh legal sector and for Wales to match England’s offer of a level 7 legal apprenticeship. In your reply, you stated you would be having these discussions. In England level 7 legal apprenticeships offer an alternative route to becoming a fully qualified solicitor without the need for a traditional university degree. In Wales, however, level 7 legal apprenticeships are currently not available. Welsh firms are having to compete with higher-paying firms across the border in England, which attract a lot of young talent in Wales.”