Ken Skates
Fflint Wrecsam · Welsh Labour · Wales
“I thank the Member for his question. He makes a really important point that there has to be cross-border planning in terms of services. We've got the regional transport plan being developed for south-west Wales, and the regional transport plan being developed for south-east Wales, but there's a critical role that's being played by Transpo…”
“Well, again, can I thank the Member for his question? Another opportunity to just outline the success that we are seeing here in Wales where we have control over services, and it relates to the new trains.”
“The UK Government, I believe, already offers support—financial support—for people looking to have an EV charger installed at home, but our focus is very much on how we can adapt those most intensely urban areas, particularly streets with no off-road parking, for the arrival of electric vehicles on a mass scale, particularly with the phase…”
“Can I thank Russell George for his question and the opportunity to share with Members the latest information regarding the deployment of new trains on the Cambrian line? Brand-new trains are of course operating in many areas across Wales and, next year, we will see them introduced onto the Cambrian line.”
“Well, there are various questions that are being raised by the Member. I am going to repeat again, though, the headline fact that we have invested £250 million in bus services since COVID.”
“Well, can I thank Altaf Hussain for his question? He makes a crucially important point that bus travel has to be affordable for the travelling public.”
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“Can I thank Russell George for his question and the opportunity to share with Members the latest information regarding the deployment of new trains on the Cambrian line? Brand-new trains are of course operating in many areas across Wales and, next year, we will see them introduced onto the Cambrian line. And I think the Member makes a really important point regarding space and capacity. So far, we have delivered 223 new trains, and in total, there are 365 carriages for use—that's a 35 per cent increase in the number of carriages that we inherited. But it's still 120 or so short of the total fleet that we will see next year, providing vastly increased capacity and far more seats across Wales, including in areas served by the Cambrian line, routes that people in Russell George's constituency depend on.”
“Yes, of course. Overall in 2024, Transport for Wales services have been more reliable than other operators in Wales. TfW put a plan in place last week for services on the Cambrian line, in response to the current fleet situation. This will provide consistency and clarity for customers, as well as improved reliability.”
“We've provided funding to Cardiff Council over a number of years to improve sections of the Taff Trail or to construct adjacent routes as well, to alleviate pressure at bottleneck locations. For example, recent investment includes construction of ramped access onto the trail from Western Avenue, where previously there were only very steep steps, and Cardiff Council is also currently reviewing their original plans for the Taff Trail through Hailey Park and working on revised proposals to be submitted for funding. We, and also colleagues at Transport for Wales, will support the authority to ensure that the proposals meet the needs of all users.”
“Julie Morgan is very, very fortunate to have the Taff Trail running through her constituency. It's a fabulous trail, it's hugely popular for people of all ages, and I myself enjoy the Taff Trail as a running route. I think it's fair to say that there are too many places, though, where the route is too narrow to accommodate all users comfortably, and I'm especially concerned for blind and partially sighted citizens. I know that the Member has invited me to meet with the Royal National Institute of Blind People, and I will happily do so, to discuss those pathways that are too narrow, not just on the Taff Trail, but elsewhere as well, where there is heavy congestion of both cyclists and pedestrians.”
“The Welsh Government is supporting walking, wheeling and cycling in Cardiff North through providing funding for infrastructure improvements, community and school initiatives. By fostering confidence through safer infrastructure and inclusive programmes, our goal is to provide long-term benefits for communities, encouraging active everyday journeys for all.”
“We're very keen to contribute to that review, because I do believe there has to be a level playing field and consistency across the UK, because different operators are adopting different discretionary measures. That needs to be ironed out and I'm looking forward to contributing to that review.”
“Instead we apply penalty fares, which are a far more proportionate way of dealing with ticketless passengers. We've estimated that the cost of fare evasion, that's people who deliberately avoid paying for tickets, is around about £10 million annually to Transport for Wales. It's a significant sum of money. It's a significant sum of taxpayers’ money that could otherwise be spent on improved services, more services or in other public services, so we want to make sure that the system operates fairly and proportionately, and that we recoup any money that is deliberately being withheld. I very much welcome the review by the ORR, the Office of Rail and Road, into revenue protection measures across the UK. It was announced by the Secretary of State for Transport.”
“I absolutely will do, because I'm not familiar with those signs and the fact of the matter is that, if you are unable to buy a ticket before you get on the train, there is discretion there for the conductors and enforcement officers to not apply a penalty fare. Indeed, all conductors are able to sell tickets on the train not just to people using cashless payments, but also to people using cash. Mencap at the weekend raised this very issue, so I'm pleased to be able to assure Members that cash can be used. The whole point of penalty fares is to crack down on those who are deliberately dodging paying for tickets. We are not pursuing prosecutions wherever possible because we do not want to put people into the criminal justice system and run the risk of people having criminal convictions.”
“Yes. Transport for Wales expanded their penalty fare zone on Monday 18 November. The penalty fare zone now covers north Wales main line services east of Llandudno, some Cambrian line services, as well as services to Liverpool and Manchester.”
“And the Member once again raised a key fact that, for every £1 invested in bus services, more than £4.50—I think it’s £4.65 in total—is accrued by the economy that it serves. But, again, I would stress that my priority is to drive social justice in terms of the provision of local buses, and to make sure that, whether you’re a learner, whether you’re employed, whether you are seeking employment, whether you’re seeking services, or for leisure opportunities, and particularly if you’re vulnerable, you’ve got a bus that’s turning up regularly and on time, and that’s what we’re striving to achieve through legislation.”
“Well, there are various questions that are being raised by the Member. I am going to repeat again, though, the headline fact that we have invested £250 million in bus services since COVID. That’s a huge sum of money that has maintained a network that is so vital for people across Wales, and that’s in addition to the money that we also invest in learner travel. I cannot overstate the importance of the bus Bill in providing us with a vehicle to ensure that we have a national integrated public transport system that responds to people’s needs. We will be working with the sector, not just during franchising, but between now and the point at which franchising will begin, to capture as much innovation, ideas and creativity to solve the problems of today, but also to embrace the opportunities of tomorrow.”
“We continue to provide vital funding to local authorities to support local bus services across Wales, recognising the essential role these services play across our communities. We also continue to build upon our existing TrawsCymru network through further improvements and the introduction of new routes.”
“I know that it's a journey that will take some years, but it is a journey that will be worth it. And the amount of work that will be required cannot be overstated, but it is work that we are determined to progress with.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He makes a really important point that there has to be cross-border planning in terms of services. We've got the regional transport plan being developed for south-west Wales, and the regional transport plan being developed for south-east Wales, but there's a critical role that's being played by Transport for Wales in ensuring that they are interfaced. Now, with the legislation that we're bringing forward in March of next year, it'll be followed by an intense period of planning, and that planning will look at regional networks—zones, if you like—for bus services. South-west Wales will be going first with the franchising, and we'll be able to then ensure that, with the franchise services that come in south-east Wales, they are fully planned and integrated with the assistance of Transport for Wales.”
“Electric trains are now operating on the core Valleys lines for the very first time. This is both a historic moment and a significant milestone towards delivering the south Wales metro. It is only possible thanks to our investment of over £1 billion to transform the network into a 'turn up and go' service.”
“What is for sure is that it’s the reliability and punctuality of services that drives increased patronage, and also the degree to which you have a functioning network across a functional region, if you like—a travel-to-work region. Ultimately, it’s our ambition, through franchising, to create one timetable, one network and one ticket for all public transport, and that will include a fare regime that is fair and transparent.”
“Well, can I thank Altaf Hussain for his question? He makes a crucially important point that bus travel has to be affordable for the travelling public. And where the Member previously had identified the great economic benefit of investment in bus services, for me, it’s actually the benefit in terms of driving social justice and access to opportunities, particularly for the lowest paid and the most vulnerable in our society. That’s really, for me, the greatest value in investing in bus services. Now, in terms of learning from other areas and how we may mirror such programmes, of course, we’re considering various programmes across the UK, including a programme that, albeit temporary, is soon to be in operation again in Rhondda Cynon Taf, I believe, which is a flat fare during the month of December.”
“It would not be appropriate for me to discuss today or to make suggestions today about where budget discussions are going within Government, but I’m hoping that we will be able to meet the Government’s priorities of protecting bus services as we move towards franchising, which will make an enormous difference. On passenger numbers, the picture varies quite considerably across Wales, and what the data shows is that, whilst fare-paying passengers have increased back to pre-COVID levels, it’s the concessionary fare passengers who’ve not been attracted back, and I think that’s worth further investigation. I’m looking at working with various groups to understand what it is that is inhibiting or preventing people with concessionary passes from returning to the bus network.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn. Again, it's a very timely question, because during the conversation that I had with other Ministers from other administrations yesterday, we agreed to share innovative practices and the outcomes from them and to share further information regarding legislative change. Now, I'll take a number of those points, if I may, Llywydd. First of all, in terms of the funding, we've allocated £0.25 billion for passenger services since COVID to support the network, and, at the moment, we’re spending something in the region of £180 million a year on learner travel. So, the public investment in public transport, when you combine it with rail, is enormous indeed. And my Cabinet colleagues regularly remind me of that when it comes to discussing budgets.”
“We provide significant financial support to bus services in south-west Wales, including TrawsCymru and Fflecsi services. The forthcoming bus legislation will introduce franchising to allow us to support the industry, and local authorities to deliver improved bus services in the region.”
“We've gone to personal injury collision data, because it more accurately reflects what is actually happening with reported incidents, and it also enables us to identify those areas at greatest risk, including the junctions. So, we're taking a more intelligent approach to planning and being proactive in terms of implementing road safety measures. But I'd be very happy to come and see the site myself and to meet with residents.”
“Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jane Dodds. For the record, can I just clarify I do not have a single helicopter? I have three. [ Laughter. ] [ Interruption. ] Absolutely. I would very much enjoy a site visit with the Member and to meet community leaders and residents in the area. I am pleased to say that we committed to undertaking a study, as the Member knows, at Pontybat, in line with the new, proactive approach to road safety, which I'll come to in a moment. We're hoping to begin that process either later this financial year or in 2025-26. So, that's our target. I mentioned the new, proactive approach that we're taking. In the past, data would be utilised using collisions—just reported collisions.”
“The Welsh Government routinely review personal injury collision data from the police to identify collision cluster sites to then inform the local safety scheme programme, and the collision cluster sites criteria on the strategic road network is four collisions in three years within 100m. This work would include junctions.”
“We're going to take a fleet that was one of Britain's—indeed, one of Europe's—oldest train fleets that we inherited from Arriva Trains Wales in 2018, of 270 trains—that's how many we inherited; one the oldest fleets—and by the end of next year, we will have one of Europe's newest fleets, comprising not 270 trains, but 484, and I know of no other part of Europe that is seeing such a rapid increase, a substantial increase, in the rolling stock and the decrease in the average age of trains running on their networks. It is something that I think we should be proud of. I know that there is some way to go in terms of reliability, but I do believe that the scale of the ambition is being realised.”
“We need to have a significant sum of enhancement investment, and that's what we are seeking to agree very soon. Now, in terms of the rolling stock, I must also say that I was staggered this week, when I was joined by Vikki Howells for the arrival of the first electric train for the metro, to be told that the last time before TfW introduced a new train—the last time that Wales saw a new train with the former operators was 1991.”
“Well, again, can I thank the Member for his question? Another opportunity to just outline the success that we are seeing here in Wales where we have control over services, and it relates to the new trains. We've ordered £800 million of new trains for the network, and they're contributing to the increasing reliability and punctuality that Transport for Wales is reporting. But even in spite of the £800 million of new trains, almost half of delayed minutes of Transport for Wales services do not relate to the trains; 44 per cent of delayed minutes relates directly to matters concerning the infrastructure, and that's why it's so important that we work with Great British Railways and the UK Government to get the investment in our infrastructure that we need; a consequential of £320 million to £350 million simply wouldn't pay for it.”
“We discussed Avanti, we discussed the process of creating Great British Railways and, vitally important, the part that we now will play, and the Senedd will now play, in specifying future services, because they affect a huge number of people travelling by rail, not just in north Wales, but also with CrossCountry in Wales, and also GWR. So, we're going to be having a greater role, a greater say, in the specification of those services in the future, and that's as a result of two Governments working as one, and the Member is also right to point to the proportion of cancellations that we've seen of late with Avanti. The very, very latest figures still show that cancellations are in double figures, and that's simply not acceptable.”
“Well, I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity to put on record how disappointed I am with Avanti's performance and how much I look forward to the creation of Great British Railways, under the UK-led Government, to take back that franchise service. Because the Member is absolutely right, over the years performance has declined, and not just performance, the number of services operated by Avanti West Coast has dramatically reduced, and we're way past COVID now, so COVID can no longer be used as an excuse for not reinstating those services. I met recently with the transport Secretary, Louise Haigh.”
“In terms of driving the farebox, which is crucial in ensuring that it's sustainable, I'm pleased to say that Transport for Wales have increased passenger revenue this financial year by £27 million. They have met our stretching targets and exceeded them. They have also—and I think this is really, really important in terms of making sure that we have a sustainable rail service—seen the highest passenger growth across Britain, with a passenger growth this year of 27 per cent. So, in terms of delivering for passengers, reliability has improved, cancellations have been reduced, and in terms of the outcome for passengers and the taxpayer, the improvements will be there as we seek to further increase the farebox, and in so doing reduce the level of subsidy required.”
“We are collaborating with the UK Government to get a better deal than the £320 million to £350 million consequential that we would receive otherwise, and that's through working jointly through the Wales rail board in identifying the pipeline of improvements to infrastructure across Wales. And where we've been able to direct that infrastructure improvement, for example here in south-east Wales with the metro, we are seeing huge benefits in terms of reliability, which is better than the average across the network as a whole, and in terms of frequency, and in terms of the arrival of new electric trains. There is still more to do across the TfW network, of course, but at the moment reliability stands at 76 per cent of trains arriving within three minutes of the scheduled time.”
“I think, Llywydd, I could probably talk for some time on this very subject. So, what I suggest I'll do is issue a written statement on performance, on the latest position regarding rolling stock and the farebox. In brief, though, I think the Member is absolutely right that the purpose of a transport network is to move people and goods as swiftly, efficiently and in the most sustainable way possible. But to pick up on some of the very, very specific points you raised, first of all, we have not given in on HS2. There's a very big difference between collaboration and confrontation.”
“It’s a very, very timely question, because I yesterday met with equivalent Ministers from the devolved administrations and the UK Government, and we met in part to discuss the latest work of the UK insurance taskforce. And part of that work considers the impact that uninsured drivers are having not just in terms of insurance premiums, but also in terms of the impact on the police, emergency services and hospitals. I’d be very pleased to provide an update to Members on the work of the UK insurance taskforce.”
“The UK Government, I believe, already offers support—financial support—for people looking to have an EV charger installed at home, but our focus is very much on how we can adapt those most intensely urban areas, particularly streets with no off-road parking, for the arrival of electric vehicles on a mass scale, particularly with the phased elimination of new internal combustion engine-driven cars. So, that’s where are focus very much is as a policy. But we also are encouraging the market itself to develop new and innovative solutions to the problems with EV charging. And the example that the Member has pointed to today follows another example that the Member pointed to during our last oral question. There is great innovation out there; we need to harness it, and we need to make it attractive within Wales to invest.”
“Well, can I thank Natasha Asghar for her question and her interest in this subject? It’s a subject that I’m also very interested in. I think part of the challenge with infrastructure to support EV cars is being able to predict where technology is going. And with Toyota recently saying that they’ve been able to develop a solid-state dry battery cell for vehicles, that could have major implications in terms of the range of vehicles. My understanding is that it could lift the range of the average electric car to around 800 miles, which would be game-changing in terms of the need and the requirement for EV charging on the motorway network. That doesn’t, though, prevent us from focusing very much on at-home charging and support for at-home charging.”
“I'd love to meet with the society again; I've met with the society in the past. I think there are a few Members in this Chamber who are yet to experience the warmth of the Rhondda Tunnel Society. It would be a great pleasure not just to meet with them again to discuss the potential of it becoming a must-see—and, indeed, a must-do—attraction, but I'd also welcome the opportunity myself to go into the tunnel because that is an experience I've yet to enjoy.”
“I'd be more than happy to meet with them, absolutely. If I could just give some background information to this particular stretch of road, though, analysis by the Burns delivery unit suggests that a link would actually increase traffic on the M4 towards Newport, and so they gave very considerable caution to whether it should actually proceed. That said, if the corporate joint committee decided that, after considering all of the impacts on the south-east as a whole, it wished to move as a priority to deliver the link, then the Welsh Government of course would reconsider the case for it. And that includes the possibility of reclassifying the M48, if it can be shown to have wider benefits for the region.”
“Now, once that package of measures is identified, we'll be working with the south-east Wales corporate joint committee and seeking inclusion of the proposals in the regional transport plan, so that it can then seek the investment that is required to deliver the upgrades.”
“I'd be more than happy to meet with the Member on site to see for myself the congestion in that area. His area of Wales is very similar to mine in that it is a key access point on a cross-border basis for motorists travelling to England, as well as motorists travelling into Wales. In regard specifically to Highbeech roundabout, I've asked Transport for Wales to complete the Welsh transport appraisal guidance 1 and 2 studies by the end of this financial year. That will then lead to the agreement of a preferred package of measures for the roundabout, and it's likely to include changes to the existing road network at the roundabout and also improvements to public transport and active travel.”
“Road connectivity in south-east Wales reflects the area’s mix of towns, villages and cities. The network is anchored by several major roads and motorways facilitating movement within the region, supporting the local economy, as well as connections to key developments and employment areas in mid and west Wales.”
“Well, can I think the Member for his supplementary question, and whilst there was a slight delay in the previous element of the programme, there is no delay in the current programme. If I could just outline the target dates for the project to be progressed and delivered: following the appointment of the EA, the Welsh Government will procure an early contractor involvement—an ECI—in winter 2026, and then further outline design development will continue in 2026 to allow the drafting and publication of draft orders and the environmental statement in spring 2027, as the Member outlined.”
“We are currently procuring an employer's agent, which should be complete in January 2025. Then a contractor will be procured to design, finalise the business case, and draft orders under the relevant Highways Acts required to enable the proposed improvements. And I'm pleased to report that there are no delays to the current programme.”
“At that event, so many veterans and their loved ones shared their stories and experiences, which we should never forget, because, Llywydd, we remember their losses so that we can strive to avoid circumstances in which they have to give their tomorrows for our today. Diolch.”
“And Alun Davies outlined the lasting impact of conflict on communities, conflicts that are taking place today as well as in the past. Joyce Watson, well, few are so passionate about veterans matters as your good self, and what you had to say about the archive I think resonated with many people—its value cannot be overestimated. And Jane Dodds outlined the horror of war and the need to prevent conflict with all of our energy. Lesley Griffiths talked about how precious freedom is and just how important it is that young people remember the losses from conflict. Llywydd, I doubt there was a single dry eye in any household on Saturday evening where the Royal British Legion's Festival of Remembrance was being watched, and how incredible it was to see Catherine, Princess of Wales, back on duty for that occasion.”
“What was quite striking—and I was discussing this with Sam Rowlands, who also laid a wreath—was that there were more organisations than ever before laying wreaths, and more young people in attendance than any of us could remember. It's interesting that, with 's-Hertogenbosch, actually, at Hightown Barracks there is a recently commissioned painting of Welsh soldiers in active duty, and what it depicts is a number of brave soldiers who had to rise up the ranks far quicker than would normally occur, and they did it to lead our mission there. Incredible bravery depicted in this painting, and I'd very much encourage Members to go and view it for themselves. Janet Finch-Saunders outlined the heroic efforts by armed forces, and the commemorations not just to humans, but also, yes, to war horses and to dogs.”
“Peredur Owen Griffiths opened the debate by speaking about the impact of loneliness, isolation and insecurity that many veterans face, and it is something that Ministers across the Welsh Government are determined to tackle. Hannah Blythyn and also Rhys ab Owen articulated the value of monuments and religious places in ensuring the memories of people we lost are remembered in the future. Darren Millar talked to the need for Wales to be an armed forces-friendly nation. I couldn't agree more, and I do think that huge strides have been made in this regard, and I think it showed on Sunday—certainly, it did in Wrexham. I agree entirely with Lesley Griffiths in her assessment that more people attended Remembrance Sunday in Wrexham than we can remember.”
“Diolch, Llywydd. In closing and before I respond to the contributions and the amendment, I would also like to thank those veterans who have attended today for their service—to Jim and to Owen, who I was kindly introduced to by Joyce Watson earlier today. Now, like others in this Chamber, I come from a family in which people have served, and it's been a pleasure and a very great honour to have served as Minister for armed forces and veterans since March. In firstly responding to the amendment, the call for peaceful resolutions to conflict and an end to war is one that I think we can all support, likewise remembering all who have lost their lives, including civilian casualties. There have been so many fantastic and moving contributions today, it's difficult to respond to all in detail.”
“I think we are blessed to have a multitude of third sector organisations working to support veterans through hubs, drop-in centres, and many different activities, and I'm sure Members will also wish to raise examples of the remarkable work that goes on in their constituencies and regions. In the public sector, we have a very strong and supportive infrastructure. In local authorities and in health, we have armed forces champions, supported by lead officers, armed forces liaison officers, and other posts. Supporting Service Children in Education continues its support to service children in our schools across Wales and is funded by Welsh Government. And we should also celebrate our supportive employers, those who signed the armed forces covenant, and those who chose to be part of the defence employer recognition scheme.”
“Devolved services—health, housing, education and employment—are key to those who serve, those ending their service, and those who have served. And so, in acknowledging the tireless work of individuals, organisations and volunteers who support our armed forces community, Members will join with me in noting the continued work of the Royal British Legion in support of remembrance nationally and locally. Our branch members and volunteers across Wales deserve our thanks and respect for the time and effort they put in, collecting for the poppy appeal, and co-ordinating local acts of remembrance.”
“Our review of homelessness legislation is a good example of the way it has identified the armed forces community as a distinct group. Our work supporting amputee veterans, described by Blesma, the limbless veterans charity, as 'leading the way' in the UK, is another example of where we are delivering. And I'm also pleased to be able to share how we have updated our online support guide, providing information and contacts for the armed forces community living in Wales. We published our refreshed version yesterday, which we will work with the Ministry of Defence and partners to promote. I was also pleased to recently meet Alistair Carns, my UK ministerial counterpart, to discuss the needs of service personnel, their families, and veterans in Wales.”
“The Veterans' Commissioner for Wales, in his annual report, offered the headline that Wales remains a pretty good place to be a veteran. This was qualified praise. His assessment of services for veterans covered a range of areas, many devolved and some reserved, and he highlights areas where he would like to see more action, including from Welsh Government. We continue to invest in support through our armed forces community, through Veterans' NHS Wales, and through our armed forces liaison officers, and I know how much both are valued. Not all initiatives need to be veteran or armed forces community-specific, but we should certainly be thinking of the needs of this community when developing policy, and the legal duty it places on public bodies.”