Rebecca Evans
Welsh Labour · Wales
“So, nothing's happening on the ground in Wales in relation to Great British Energy at the moment, but I think it's really positive that we're having those discussions in relation to the opportunities here in Wales.”
“I'm really keen to understand how we break down the barriers for adopting the innovation that's happening in Wales and making sure that it's available to the NHS as quickly as possible. I know that Jeremy Miles is very interested in that as well.”
“As Luke Fletcher says, the Great British Energy Bill was introduced to the House of Commons by the UK Government in July of this year. Essentially, the Bill itself only seeks to go about establishing Great British Energy as a publicly owned company.”
“As well as highlighting business success—and we’ve heard some great examples around the Chamber this afternoon—they also encourage consumers to shop locally and support the small businesses within their communities.”
“The bank does operate in accordance with regulatory requirements and their diligence generally matches or exceeds that carried out by other lenders.”
“I'm very grateful for that question this afternoon. It builds on the debate that Mike Hedges led in the Senedd very recently, which included a really strong focus on the life sciences industry and how it's scaling at pace. It's one of our most exciting and dynamic growth sectors in Wales, turning over more than £2.85 billion a year.”
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“I see that we're almost out of time, so I just want to say that we all have a part to play in embedding a culture of entrepreneurship and creating a business environment that supports and encourages businesses to flourish, and it does remain a key priority of this Government. I would just close by encouraging, as others have said, to support small businesses right the year around, rather than just on Small Business Saturday. I know that we'll all be making the most of this weekend to highlight and shine a light on the fantastic businesses in all of our constituencies.”
“Business Wales is there to support business growth in all parts of Wales, and its information, guidance and support to businesses is absolutely critical. I would point out particularly the accelerated growth programme, which helps those business to build resilience and improve productivity, and to grow. It does provide very dedicated support on areas such as employment, equality, fair work, and it drives ambitions for the green economy and decarbonisation. And, of course, access to finance and support for skills are crucial also to enable small business to thrive, and those are areas where, working with Working Wales and the Development Bank of Wales, we are trying to ensure that the whole ecosystem is there to support small businesses when they need it.”
“So, during questions this afternoon, I had quite a series of questions on national insurance contributions, so I won't reiterate everything that I said in there. Perhaps I would just point colleagues to the record of OQs this afternoon, given the fact that I have covered a lot of that ground, and I've only got about a minute left to respond to the debate. But I just want to highlight our focus, really, being on green jobs, growth, placemaking and making sure that communities are stronger and more resilient, and also working to identify the barriers that exist in terms of some people being able to access jobs and skills, and working in partnership to strengthen the offer and create those inclusive work spaces and opportunities.”
“As well as highlighting business success—and we’ve heard some great examples around the Chamber this afternoon—they also encourage consumers to shop locally and support the small businesses within their communities. So, we are actively supporting Small Business Saturday through our Business Wales service, to raise awareness wherever possible. In recent years, the economy in Wales has faced significant challenges, ranging from Brexit to COVID. But, despite this, the overall economic environment does continue to improve. Colleagues will be familiar with our economic mission, and that sets out our national priority areas, with our focus on a stronger, fairer, greener Wales, supporting economic growth by taking a person and place-based approach, which puts the foundational economy as a key part of our economic strategy.”
“Just in advance of Small Business Saturday, last week we did celebrate Global Entrepreneurship Week, and that is a dedicated campaign to celebrate and empower entrepreneurs. Across Wales, there were over 100 events in collaboration with Business Wales. I also, of course, had the opportunity of celebrating Social Enterprise Day by visiting Thrive, and I talked about the great work—earlier on in the Chamber—that they do, in terms of supporting women who have survived domestic violence, and the work that they do to provide services to people within the community. I’m obviously very pleased to support campaigns such as Small Business Saturday.”
“Supporting small businesses in relation to resilience against climate change is clearly absolutely critically important. We do know that some of those small businesses that took advantage of the loans and grants that were provided following storm Dennis, and were able to make adaptations, were actually open again within hours following the recent flooding. So, we are exploring what more we can do in this particular space, and also working with local authorities to identify, on the ground, the situation now for the businesses that were affected over recent days. But just to reassure all colleagues in the Chamber that that is a priority for my department at the moment, working with local government.”
“The Welsh Government, of course, remains committed to helping small businesses to start, but also to be resilient against tough economic climates, and also to help them identify those opportunities to grow and to prosper, to enrich our communities and provide opportunities for social and economic success.”
“Well, thank you for bringing forward this debate today and giving us the opportunity to celebrate our small businesses right across Wales, which are, as a number of colleagues have described them, the backbone of our Welsh economy, creating jobs, supporting communities and, of course, developing those local economies right across Wales. We have heard about what a great contribution small and micro-sized enterprises in Wales make, making up around 98.4 per cent of all enterprises and employing more than half a million people, which was around half of all total employment in Wales. So, the significance of the sector to us is very, very clear.”
“I do expect to see that review consider the progress made on the actions agreed through the committee's report. And thank you again to the committee.”
“The bank does operate in accordance with regulatory requirements and their diligence generally matches or exceeds that carried out by other lenders. For example, alongside the due diligence undertaken to tackle financial crime and money laundering, and alongside the diligence undertaken via credit agencies, the bank has now strengthened its approach to internet-based searches designed to flag any potential reputational risk factors that might require some further consideration ahead of a deal being sanctioned. Just finally, to conclude, I do have confidence in the leadership of the bank and the board, and next year we will work with the board to complete a tailored project assessment review of the bank, mirroring the approach that we took in 2021, and that was the last time such an external review was undertaken.”
“But, as noted in my response to the committee, I think that that is a question that is best returned to once we get the issues around the reclassification of the bank resolved. And I know that this is a priority in the discussions that the Cabinet Secretary for finance is having with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and nobody would like this to be resolved more than I would and I share the committee's sense of urgency in this particular matter. And then, just to conclude, having taken a couple of interventions, Deputy Presiding Officer, to the committee's recommendation on due diligence, we have asked the bank to review their activities and they've done so and changes have been made. So, I'm glad that the committee has been updated on some of that work already.”
“In response to the report's recommendation on streamlining the wider offer to business, I would say that we have a strong business support infrastructure through Business Wales and relationships and links with the bank are working effectively. The focus and priority now, though, is on ensuring that all support services are delivering on our economic priorities, and it needs our collective focus, and that's where I want to see an organisational effort deployed. In response to the committee's suggestion that we consider placing the development bank on a statutory footing, I think that speaks of the value that is placed on the bank and it recognises the long-term nature of the work that is undertaken.”
“I'm more than happy to explore the rationale behind the development bank's setting of that limit with them, to explore things from their perspective, but very happy to, as I say, take that forward. So, in terms of other things the committee was interested in learning more about, one, I know, was about how the bank is supporting the development of community energy projects, and I am also keen to see what role the bank can play in increasing local ownership through investigating the use of the subsidy control for the £12 million local energy fund and also through engaging with private developers. So, again, I think that's a shared area of interest between ourselves and the committee.”
“But I have been reflecting on this recommendation in discussions I've been having recently with Social Business Wales, and also with Cwmpas and with partners in the co-operative sector more generally, who are very interested in ensuring that those businesses that are considering what their succession plans are actually consider what the options are in terms of those social models as well, and that's something that I'm keen to pursue.”
“The bank does conduct stakeholder surveys using a third party to ensure that there's independence and where responses are anonymous. I do understand that the bank is giving some further consideration to increasing the frequency of this research and encouraging further engagement while continuing to gather feedback in a confidential way. The bank has been active in supporting employee buy-outs alongside wider management succession funding. I know that's an important recommendation within the committee's report. The Wales management succession fund has supported £19 million of investment since 2017, enabling many businesses to stay owned and rooted in Wales.”
“The bank, though, has updated, I know, the committee on the changes that it is making to its complaints handling procedures, and it's been reflecting on the cases that have been raised and learning and developing over the overall approach. But, for a bank or an organisation working with over 3,000 customers, the overall number of complaints is actually comfortingly low. Overwhelmingly, customer feedback on the bank is positive, and I think that the committee would accept that too. The bank's most recent net promoter score of 91 is an exceptional achievement and it does indicate that the bank is engaging and performing well and is managing those customer relationships well, and that's something that the bank's commitment to a relational delivery model helps to underpin.”
“I said that founder members are 'sometimes' removed by boards; I wouldn't go so far as to say that is commonplace. But I think the point here is that it's not understood what the role of DBW is in relation to these boards. The rights that I've just referred to are standard in the industry and they're in place to protect the public investment, providing measures of protection for the public funds that the bank invests. I am, though, satisfied that the bank has looked at the complaints. There have been some cases, to be fair, where the complaints have been brought to the attention of the committee, rather than appropriately through the complaints process to the bank. So, I would obviously encourage those who do have a complaint to raise with the bank to raise it directly with the bank.”
“And I am aware that specific complaints were brought to the attention of the committee, and, where possible, I have familiarised myself with those, and I’ve had the opportunity to address concerns with officials. It is the case, though, that founder members of companies are sometimes removed by their boards. The bank’s involvement is as a lender and a minority shareholder, and, as such, the bank’s rights are limited to those which are agreed with the company in the investment agreement and the articles of association.”
“Because the bank is dealing in repayable finance, not grants, that public investment will, in large part, be returned and be made available to businesses again in the future, allowing our resourcing of the bank to stretch further and the overall value proposition to be multiplied yet again. The bank will be taking forward work to further understand the economic impact of the private sector investment that is induced by the bank’s investment. Learning to effectively handle customer complaints or concerns is vital for all organisations. Finance can be complex, and I am aware that there are times when customers don’t understand the role of the bank or the obligations of the bank, and this can, regrettably, lead to misunderstandings and complaints.”
“Responding to Brexit, the pandemic, and more recently the cost-of-living crisis, the bank has demonstrated time and time again that it’s able to be agile and responsive, bringing solutions to policy and delivery ambitions. Since 2017, the bank has invested £778 million in more than 3,900 Welsh businesses, supporting 41,700 jobs. That’s a total impact of £1.66 billion on the Welsh economy—real investment, real businesses, real growth, supporting businesses in every part of Wales. The bank has leveraged £531 million of direct private sector co-investment between 2017 and March 2024, multiplying the impact of public finance.”
“Diolch. I’m grateful to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee for their report into the work of the Development Bank of Wales. I really do recognise the value of the scrutiny, which I think has been clear in the contributions today. The majority of the recommendations made by the committee have been accepted, and it is good news for Wales that, as an organisation, the development bank has successfully delivered and continues to successfully deliver on its headline objectives. Working to a clear remit, the organisation has benefited from the clarity and the stability that we’ve provided to it, allowing the bank to build strong working relationships with businesses and also to plan for the long term.”
“But obviously I will have those discussions with the transport Secretary in relation to the impacts on businesses, but my understanding is that the changes were made at the request of the community.”
“—including local businesses. A number of benefits were suggested that it would bring to local businesses, for example less chance of cancellations and delay due to bad weather, risk of HGVs and other vehicles not being able to cross the Menai strait during the winter, improved traffic flow to and from Menai Bridge, which would assist schools and Bangor hospital, and ensuring that Holyhead port remains operational for longer. So, these are the arguments that I understood have been made to the transport Secretary and his officials, and part of that, of course, is because of the winter weather. But I know the bridge is nearing its two-hundredth anniversary and, obviously, we need to maintain the bridge, and want to see those works finished by the time of its two-hundredth anniversary.”
“Well, as I understand it, from the transport Secretary and his officials, the change in timing and rescheduling the start date to March 2025 was at the request of the local community—”
“The duration of the physical works has not altered. Through listening to the local community, we've rescheduled the start date, which brings a number of benefits. I'd encourage any business facing uncertainties due to the repair programme to contact Business Wales for advice as soon as possible.”
“As Mike says, it will deliver R&D, trials and testing facilities, enabling the co-location of research and industry alongside clinical infrastructure and investment opportunities. Having that approach where you've got a range of businesses and academics working in the same field together I think is really important, because those ideas spark off each other. The networks that are involved are also there to collaborate as well. So, it's a really exciting sector and a lot of this is happening just on Mike's doorstep and mine in Swansea.”
“I'm very grateful for the question and for Mike Hedges's passion for the life sciences sector, having, as I mentioned earlier, brought forward a debate that focused really strongly on the promotion of that sector. Just on the doorstep for Mike and myself in Swansea we have some incredible work going on, harnessing the unique capabilities and the thriving life science ecosystem that is part of the Swansea bay city region. They're establishing an international centre for innovation in life science, well-being and sport, supporting preventative interventions in healthcare and medicine, and driving the growth of a globally significant sportstech industry as well. Those are just part of the work that is going on through the funding that we've been able to provide.”
“I'm really keen to understand how we break down the barriers for adopting the innovation that's happening in Wales and making sure that it's available to the NHS as quickly as possible. I know that Jeremy Miles is very interested in that as well. I did have the opportunity to visit Medica, which is one of the world's largest trade fairs for the medtech sector, just recently. We took 33 different businesses from Wales over there, alongside 50 other delegates. We were able to showcase the incredible innovative work that is going on here in Wales and give those businesses a platform to be able to sell and export. We also have an export cluster programme that looks particularly at the medtech and diagnostic sector as well. So, this is a really exciting area. It's a growth area and I really welcome the interest that colleagues show in it.”
“I'm very grateful for that question this afternoon. It builds on the debate that Mike Hedges led in the Senedd very recently, which included a really strong focus on the life sciences industry and how it's scaling at pace. It's one of our most exciting and dynamic growth sectors in Wales, turning over more than £2.85 billion a year. We're very supportive of businesses in this sector and of innovation in this sector. You asked how I'm working alongside Jeremy Miles. Our departments co-fund the Life Sciences Hub Wales and this year we awarded annual funding of £3.5 million, so partly from the economy budget and partly from the health budget. That enabled the hub to work towards its mission of transforming the health and economic well-being of the nation. I know Jeremy visited just last week to find out more.”
“We support the life sciences sector in Wales in a number of ways, including through our SMART flexible innovation support programme, the financial support we provide to the Life Sciences Hub Wales, and our support for trade events, both in Wales and internationally.”
“I'm grateful for the question. That sounds like a very interesting visit that Janet Finch-Saunders has had. I would welcome the opportunity, perhaps outside of the Chamber, to have a further discussion about what you learned on that particular visit, so that I can consider what, if any, further discussions I would have to have with colleagues. But I'm keen to learn—[ Interruption .]—what you and Rhun ap Iorwerth learned on your visit.”
“I'm very grateful for that point. Of course, that relates to the Maen Hir project, which the UK Government would be—currently, under the existing rules—due to make a determination on. I think the point raised is an important one, and actually, I think it's one that I would be happy to have some further discussion with my colleagues in Westminster on, because it is an important point that is made.”
“We have set ambitious targets to generate enough renewable energy across Wales to meet the equivalent of 100 per cent of our annual electricity consumption by 2035. In doing so, we expect to see benefits to our communities, including through job creation and local investment.”
“Thank you very much for that. I’m sure that all of us would agree about the importance of supporting the Brilliant Basics scheme and the difference that it is making in communities by providing investment, as Joyce Watson says, in those small but simple things that really enhance the tourist and visitor experience, but can also benefit small businesses in our areas. We have had, recently, another round of applications open for that particular scheme, and I hope to say more very shortly in terms of the response that we have had. But I think that the level of interest is really positive.”
“But, of course, I take a strong interest in the views of the visitor sector, and I had an opportunity to speak and listen to the visitor economy forum recently, and I heard very clearly the contributions that they were making.”
“Well, I'm afraid that we have got no plans to undertake a formal review of the changes to the self-catering criteria in the short term. We certainly wouldn’t want to undertake that kind of review in isolation from the package of measures within that three-pronged approach that we are taking to address the impact of second homes and holiday lets on communities and on the Welsh language. Our concern is that such a commitment to undertake that kind of review would create uncertainty for the self-catering sector, which is unlikely to be helpful at this time. Of course, this matter sits now with the finance Minister, as he is responsible for local taxation.”
“The tourism industry in Preseli is supported through Visit Wales's marketing and promotional activities. Cruise Wales works with the travel trade to promote Fishguard and Milford Haven ports for cruise calls. Other support provided includes grading activities, developing skills across the industry, and a capital investment programme.”
“So, nothing's happening on the ground in Wales in relation to Great British Energy at the moment, but I think it's really positive that we're having those discussions in relation to the opportunities here in Wales. We've been able to set out how far we've come on the road in relation to Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, the number of projects that we've identified, the sites that we've identified and the progress that we can make quickly with the UK Government. I see this as very much a partnership operation. UK Government understands Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru and the important work that that's doing. I think Ynni Cymru sits in a different space, so both Great British Energy and Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru are looking at those larger scale projects, but Ynni Cymru is very much more about community-type projects that make a difference at that very, very local level.”
“I think the most important thing to set out here is that there's been absolutely no change whatsoever in this Welsh Government's position in relation to the constitutional impacts and implications of legislation flowing from the UK Government, regardless of the colour of the UK Government. Because we know that the legislation will be there beyond this Government and beyond future UK Governments of whatever colour, so the legislation has to be right for Wales and it has to respect Wales. It has to respect the Welsh Government and the Senedd and devolution, and we've been absolutely clear about that at every step of the journey. Great British Energy isn't operating yet; it won't be up and operating for some time yet, we've still got the legislation to set it up.”
“And something that's absolutely critical to our approach is around community benefits and it's showing how we can do community benefits differently in Wales, how you can absolutely provide a template, really, for how community benefits should be done, and that is our intention through Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru. And, of course, we've got ambitions around community ownership as well, and we're continuing to support those kinds of projects. And I'd highlight Ynni Cymru as an opportunity to develop more, because, of course, we've got our £10 million investment in that as well. So, the UK Government is following us, in many ways, on this journey, because we have been working in this space for such a long time.”
“So, again, very grateful for these important points. Just to reassure colleagues, our Welsh Government officials are in constant discussion with their counterparts in the UK Government in relation to specifically that point about the interplay between Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru and Great British Energy. I think we do have to understand the position of the UK Government at this point. The Bill itself, as I said, goes about setting up Great British Energy as a publicly owned company, but there's an awful lot of work to do in relation to how that is operationalised, so those are part of the discussions. And UK Government is learning from us, because with Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, we're several years ahead now of where the UK Government is currently, so they're very much learning from us.”
“Those issues are still in discussion in relation to the points about consulting versus consent and so on. But I’ll just reassure colleagues that we are still continuing to have those discussions, and as soon as I’m in a position to be able to provide a clearer answer to colleagues in terms of the Welsh Government’s recommendation in relation to legislative consent, I’ll be keen to do that as soon as I can.”
“As Luke Fletcher says, the Great British Energy Bill was introduced to the House of Commons by the UK Government in July of this year. Essentially, the Bill itself only seeks to go about establishing Great British Energy as a publicly owned company. There will be much further work to do in terms of the operation of that, and we’re having those early discussions with the UK Government. I’ve had the opportunity on a couple of occasions to talk to Minister Michael Shanks about the synergy that there already is in terms of Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, and the work that we can do together to ensure that we fast-track some of the opportunities that we have in Wales. In terms of the Bill itself, we’re still, as I say and as I gave evidence to committee on, in the process of considering our position in relation to legislative consent.”
“Well, Llywydd, there’s less than a month to wait for the Welsh Government’s budget, and that will be published on 10 December. Of course, I wouldn’t be in any position to make any announcements in advance of that.”
“And that change means employers will now get a £10,500 discount on their NICs bill, and that’s a change that particularly, actually, benefits small businesses. So, in a statement, the Secretary of State for Wales was really clear that this allows Welsh firms to employ four national living wage workers full-time without paying employer national insurance on their wages, and we know that many of our small businesses and microbusinesses are in that space in terms of staff numbers.”
“So, of course, this is from the party that literally crashed the economy, but the Welsh Government, of course, is working hard to support businesses in the ways that we can, with the levers that we have. And I think it’s also worth reflecting on the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, around 53 per cent of employers will be better or, at least, no worse off following the changes to employer national insurance contributions. As part of the package of changes to those employer national insurance contributions introduced by the Chancellor, the employment allowance, which is the amount available to businesses in which employer NI is not payable, was increased by £5,000. So, that’s equivalent to a 90 per cent increase.”
“I’m hearing suggestions that it wasn’t a dreadful set of circumstances that the Chancellor was presented with. Well, of course it was. We know that there were millions and billions of pounds of uncosted announcements that had been made by the UK Government. Some of them related specifically to us here in Wales, when you look at Tata, when you look at the investments zones—all announcements, but none of them funded. So, I think that we have to look very carefully at the budget and understand that difficult choices had to be made.”
“The Welsh Government is completely understanding of the fact that the Chancellor faced, as I said, a really, really difficult set of circumstances when she was going about setting her budget, and she made choices that she wouldn’t have had to do. But I think that we all know that the response that the Chancellor was making was to the huge challenge of the dreadful situation that was left to her by the previous UK Government. I’m hearing mutterings from the Conservative benches that it wasn’t a dreadful—[ Interruption .]—”
“Colleagues will be aware that the temporary rate relief support provided to the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors was just that—it was temporary. It was in relation to the specific circumstances caused by the COVID pandemic, and then, of course, as we moved into the cost-of-living crisis, we decided to keep some of that support. But, overall, we've provided almost £1 billion of support through those rate relief schemes since 2020-21, and that is really significant support for the sector. And, of course, it's alongside all of the other support I've referred to, which Business Wales is there to offer businesses, alongside, of course, the development bank.”
“I think the inflammatory language used in that question was completely unnecessary; I think it is possible to make important points in different ways. I will also just add that, of course, this question is about social enterprises, and, whilst the question that was raised by you was about hospitality businesses, I will nonetheless address the point in relation to non-domestic rates. The Welsh Government has a long history of providing significant support to the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors through our non-domestic rates relief support. We're providing over £130 million this year in support, and that is, of course, in addition to the £250 million that we provide annually. So, this year alone, over £0.3 billion is going to support those businesses, and that is a really significant investment.”