Hefin David
Welsh Labour · Wales
“The future generations commissioner has suggested to me that, in terms of the support the bank provides to Welsh businesses, a social value clause could be inserted into grant and loan agreements, which would align with the seven well-being goals of the Act, which to remind ourselves, are: a prosperous Wales, a resilient Wales, a more equ…”
“The ETRA report will be used to inform the terms of reference for a further PAR and will include elements of the recommendations within the Committee’s report.' Can I suggest that the Cabinet Secretary liaises with the committee to develop that, as outlined in the Welsh Government’s response, given that the ETRA committee’s report has ins…”
“Recommendation 12 was rejected by the Welsh Government, and I think the response from the Government makes clear the difference between a tailored review for a mature organisation—.”
“A social value clause under the auspices of the well-being of future generations Act could act in a way similar to this. Therefore, I’d like to hear if the Cabinet Secretary has any views on this, and whether she has had any discussions with the future generations commissioner about how his role, and the Act, and the piece of legislation,…”
“I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for mentioning Flood Re, which I raised on my Facebook page on Sunday to some questions. The community of Bedwas was badly affected, Llanbradach, Ystrad Mynach. In Bedwas, the Fisherman's Rest pub is closed and flooded.”
“It's incredibly rich for the Conservatives to scaremonger local authorities in this way. It has been 14 years of ideologically driven austerity from the Conservatives in Westminster—[ Interruption .] I knew they were going to shout, I knew they were going to shout, but it's the truth, and the First Minister's pointed that out.”
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“A social value clause under the auspices of the well-being of future generations Act could act in a way similar to this. Therefore, I’d like to hear if the Cabinet Secretary has any views on this, and whether she has had any discussions with the future generations commissioner about how his role, and the Act, and the piece of legislation, can support the bank to further deliver on the Welsh Government’s strategic policy objectives.”
“The future generations commissioner has suggested to me that, in terms of the support the bank provides to Welsh businesses, a social value clause could be inserted into grant and loan agreements, which would align with the seven well-being goals of the Act, which to remind ourselves, are: a prosperous Wales, a resilient Wales, a more equal Wales, a healthier Wales, a Wales of cohesive communities, a Wales of vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language, and a globally responsible Wales. All of those things could be built into the bank’s ambitions. The Welsh Government’s one-stop shop for business advice and support, Business Wales, has an economic contract that sets out how it will work with businesses in partnership to create resilient businesses that offer an attractive place to work.”
“The ETRA report will be used to inform the terms of reference for a further PAR and will include elements of the recommendations within the Committee’s report.' Can I suggest that the Cabinet Secretary liaises with the committee to develop that, as outlined in the Welsh Government’s response, given that the ETRA committee’s report has instigated the need for that? The other issue—I had a meeting with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales—could potentially be addressed in the context of the committee report, and I’d like to raise that now. The Development Bank of Wales is not covered by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 itself, but we understand that the development bank leadership is very supportive of that.”
“Recommendation 12 was rejected by the Welsh Government, and I think the response from the Government makes clear the difference between a tailored review for a mature organisation—. And it seems that the Welsh Government doesn’t consider the Development Bank of Wales to be a mature organisation, and is, instead, doing a project assessment review. The Welsh Government, it says, 'intends to commission an independently led PAR on aspects of delivery and assurance provided by the bank in 2025.”
“What assessment has the Government made of the flood defences that have been put in place by the track and around that area, and what concerns has the Cabinet Secretary got should that track become derelict land?”
“I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for mentioning Flood Re, which I raised on my Facebook page on Sunday to some questions. The community of Bedwas was badly affected, Llanbradach, Ystrad Mynach. In Bedwas, the Fisherman's Rest pub is closed and flooded. The clubhouse was saved at Bedwas rugby club, but the cellars were flooded, causing a great deal of damage, and, of course, the residents of Edward Street again faced flooding, but they did have storm doors to protect some of the street. The concern that I've got is that the greyhound track, which sits in the Islwyn constituency but is adjacent to Ystrad Mynach, was flooded. I understand that the track themselves have carried out flood prevention work and, therefore, it may have been worse there, and especially on the road above the racetrack adjacent to Ystrad.”
“It's incredibly rich for the Conservatives to scaremonger local authorities in this way. It has been 14 years of ideologically driven austerity from the Conservatives in Westminster—[ Interruption .] I knew they were going to shout, I knew they were going to shout, but it's the truth, and the First Minister's pointed that out. The key issue—[ Interruption .]—the key issue is it's unnecessary to scaremonger, given that we have heard about the contribution made to the public sector by the UK Treasury. Can the First Minister, therefore, confirm that that will then be allocated through the Barnett formula, and perhaps give us some insight into the discussions that she's had in the build-up to the Welsh Government's budget?”
“I think it's asking larger employers to pay a bit more, but there are measures in place, then, to make sure that those small and micro firms, in the way that I've described, actually benefit from the changes. And I think those of us who have advocated the foundational economy will see that benefit coming through in that way. So, yes, tough decisions have to be made, but I think that in the longer term, this is to everyone's benefit.”
“I thought he was going to intervene then. And it has to be placing those right measures in the right places. So, I do worry that we end up in this very negative spiral of debate, in which we talk down the economy and end up in a place where we, rather than looking at what we can do together—and I reach out to Plaid Cymru on this—we're in a place where we're just criticising the UK Government for actually trying to fix what is an economy that needs a huge set of building blocks at the foundations. So, we have to ask ourselves, 'Do we want better public services?' And if we do, how do we pay for them? And we have had this austerity over the last 14 years, and I disagree with what Rhun ap Iorwerth said, that this is a return to some kind of austerity.”
“And even when they move away from family and friends, they will find networks of other businesses that will be there to support them through the process. I've long argued, and this was in the days when I was teaching this stuff, that those firms that are going to grow, yes, they need help and support, but they are going to grow. Those firms that are foundational that exist within the economy are not going to grow in the conventional sense that we consider. So, I think we can probably over-exaggerate the impact of national insurance contributions on the small-business sector. The other thing I wanted to say is that this is a budget that has had to make difficult decisions, and if you don't make those decisions, then you've still got to fill that £22 billion black hole that was left by the Conservatives—ah, Peter Fox is waking up.”
“So, it's worth considering the fact that the small-firm sector is often romanticised to the extent that you perceive them to be these vastly exciting, fast-growing firms, when, in fact, what they are is still romantic but in a way that is more reliant on things like social capital, where firms rely on family, friends, networks, to build and grow, and the kinds of communities they create tend to be communities that are socially inclusive as well rather than dynamically economic. And my argument, from the PhD I wrote 11 years ago, is that the small-firm sector is a steady and reliable contributor to the economy, but it isn't ever going to be a source of hugely dynamic growth, because small-firm owners always have an alternative to employment. They've got social capital to rely on.”
“The problem with debates like this is that they do actually enhance the anxiety rather than alleviate it, because a lot of what we are talking about today is speculative, and some of it, I would say, factually inaccurate. There are 248,000 small firms in Wales, and of those small firms, 95 per cent of them don't employ anybody. They rely on social capital in their communities. So, when it comes into areas of national insurance contributions, they won't be paying them, and they'll benefit from a growing economy as a result of the policy.”
“So, with that, I want to say thank you to the Commission staff, who are absolutely incredible, but also the Members who have taken part in this debate today.”
“I absolutely agree with you, though, in what you say. And finally, Janet Finch-Saunders's objection on Senedd reform. I note that it is the only objection from the Welsh Conservatives. They don't seem to have any wider issue with the operational budget, which shows the rigour with which this has gone through. The opposition to Senedd reform is what has driven what I suspect may be a ' gwrthwynebu ' at the end of this debate. I'm pleased that the operational budget is to be accepted. Final points. A referendum on Senedd reform: that's not a role for a Commissioner to discuss. Mike Hedges's final comment about delaying Senedd reform: again, it's not my role to discuss. It lays well without my responsibilities and, I suspect, even beyond the Deputy First Minister's responsibilities too.”
“Well, definitely in the budget, because it’s a budgetary decision; we will have to have a vote in this Chamber on it. If you are asking me for a further say on these things, perhaps it's something that I could discuss with the committee in an evidence session early next year, so we can talk about what you are actually looking for and how we might achieve it. Mike, the project pipeline—absolutely right. We need to present that, and that will be done. I have asked for that. On cyber security, I'm hoping that we will be able to write a letter again to the Finance Committee on how we are dealing with cyber security and the implications of artificial intelligence and its use. The timescale of the three-week turnaround following evidence to the Finance Committee, that's a symptom of something that is beyond the Commission's control.”
“I'd like to thank the contributors to this debate, who’ve done so so constructively. I think quite a bit of challenge came from Peredur Owen Griffiths, which I’ll just answer in a second, but, thank you, Janet, for those kind words, and Mike too. Pred, just regarding the engagement plan, communication. I want a formal codified engagement plan presented to the Finance Committee and to the Senedd as to how we engage in future budgets, and I’ve asked for that from officials to be drawn up as soon as possible. I think having that identifying both the formal processes and the informal processes, with some recommendations for how we go forward, would be really helpful, and I’m really keen that you see that as soon as it’s available. Will Members have a final say on Bay 32?”
“In order to deliver a 60 per cent increase in the size of the Senedd, the Senedd Commission today requests a 16 per cent uplift in our budget. The Commission budget request for 2025-26 is therefore £83.845 million, an increase of £11.65 million, and down by the £456,000 that was included in the supplementary budget.”
“I move the Commission's budget motion for 2025-26 and ask that it be incorporated into the annual budget motion. Dirprwy Lywydd, this year the Senedd Commission has been tasked by a two-thirds majority of this Siambr to produce a transformational step-change budget. In these turbulent times, strengthening a democracy in any nation is often a difficult but certainly noble endeavour, and while I in no way devalue the objections of those opposed to reform, those Members who have supported Senedd expansion have done so in order to build a stronger Parliament for the people of Wales, and that strengthened Parliament must of course be supported if it is to achieve the aims of the legislation that has created it.”
“But that is very much subject to the agreement of the Senedd, and it can be stopped at any time with a vote of the Senedd, which will take place this afternoon. So, I think it would be very foolhardy to try and project costs into the future beyond the next two years. And we will reach a steady state in the seventh Senedd, but, of course, one Parliament can't bind the next one, therefore those will be issues for the seventh Senedd.”
“And, in fact, if the budget that is before the Senedd is passed later today, and we agree that staffing costs match Welsh Government staffing costs, then, actually, you could argue that the adjusted pay awards would lead to a reduction in the costs on Senedd reform from the regulatory impact assessment previously. So, we’re actually seeing costs, given the principles that we may agree later, actually falling. It’s an argument I’ve been reluctant to deploy, because I think it depends on the Senedd debating and passing the budget. But, reflecting on a £120 million cost, I don't know where that comes from, because the Senedd Commission can only pass a budget on an annual basis. We don't carry reserves. We can only pass a budget, and we only produce a budget, on an annual basis, with a projection for the following two years.”
“Well, there were quite a few questions in there; I’ll pick out the ones that are relevant to the Commission. First of all, I think it’s important to note that the actual decision on Senedd reform was a decision for the Senedd as a whole, and it was passed by a two-thirds majority, and I think any gripes about that whole thing need to be directed at Ministers, who are there to decide, rather than Commissioners, who are merely here to serve. The other thing I would say—[ Interruption .] The other thing I would say is that he mentions a £1.2 million increase on the projected costs. Actually, that was a £1.2 million increase in capital costs, but staffing costs have actually fallen, so it only comes out at a £400,000 increase on previous costs.”
“There will, of course, be further cost pressures for future years, but these remain estimates and projections that have yet to be refined in detail and incorporated into an annual budget, which again will be subject to the scrutiny of the Finance Committee and to be decided by this Senedd as a whole.”
“The Commission's budget provision for Senedd reform costs for 2023-24 were £571,000. In the current year, 2024-25, the budget is £2.1 million. And the Commission's draft budget for the next financial year, 2025-26, includes a £6.5 million provision for Senedd reform, but that is, of course, subject to a vote of this Chamber later this afternoon. These Senedd reform costs include provision for new staff to prepare for the seventh Senedd, increases to non-staff budgets and funding for reconfiguring the Chamber, and additional Members' officers in Tŷ Hywel.”
“That bus Bill is very welcome, particularly with regard to franchising. Yesterday the UK Labour Government announced £1 billion funding for bus services in England, which will mean Barnett consequentials for Wales. Our constituents need reliable bus services to survive through to the franchising Bill, and therefore funding now is essential. Will the First Minister, therefore, commit to adequately funding those bus services through to franchising, in order to make sure that that happens?”
“We've seen a clear listening exercise and I've seen people in my constituency come to me and say, 'Thank you for listening now in a way that didn't happen before', and I'd say that the First Minister is a listening First Minister. If we can characterise her in any particular way, it is a First Minister who listens. I'm very proud to be supporting Eluned Morgan, and I'm very proud to be standing with her, if I'm selected, in 2026, where I think the achievements of her administration will be recognised by the public at that election.”
“I think we need to give Transport for Wales more credit. What you're going to see—. I've often likened Transport for Wales to a flowering flower, a flower flowering across Wales, and it just happens that the germination of that flower begins in Caerphilly. And I would suggest to you that you will see radically improved public transport throughout Wales as we see those carriages coming onto the line: Welsh-made and European-made carriages. You will see it, it will happen, and it will happen gradually, but this is again another demonstration of why the first 100 days is something of a misnomer. The other thing I'd say, you know, we talk about speed limits and 20 mph.”
“You should travel on the Rhymney line from time to time. The quality of the train transport is incredible. But what we need to do next is connect that bus transport into it, and that is why the First Minister is empowering a transport Cabinet Secretary to introduce a bus services Bill that will improve those services. Mabon.”
“I think Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned the four priorities. I wanted to look at connecting communities. In my community, we have the newest rail carriages, the newest train carriages, on the Rhymney to Cardiff line of the whole of the UK, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were one of the newest and best quality in the whole of Europe. We have that carried on, and that will be grown in the next 18 months across Wales, across the Valleys lines. The core Valleys lines will see brand-new stock, and we will then see a bus Bill that will be designed to introduce franchising that will connect those buses into those rail networks. I think that is a significant—a significant—achievement in connecting communities, because when I was first elected—. Natasha Asghar is looking really sceptically at me.”
“[ Laughter .] I'm not expecting anything, finance Minister, but I do think it demonstrates the warmth of Eluned Morgan. The fact that she comes from a background in Ely, one of the poorest parts of the United Kingdom, succeeded against the odds, and has every right to be proud of her status, both in the House of Lords and as our first female First Minister. She came in with the unanimous support of the Labour group, and I think, at the next election, she will have had more than 100 days, but 18 months to prove what she can do. I think that both her listening exercise, which stands that in good stead, and the leading into the next Senedd election will prove that she has the popularity on her side, as a result of the activities that she's undertaken and will be undertaking in the next year of this Senedd.”
“Why have I always got to follow Janet Finch-Saunders? [ Laughter .] I'm not entirely convinced by the FDR 100 days measure. It worked for him; I'm not sure it's going to work so much across modern politics, which moves so quickly and so differently to the times of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. But what I would say is that we have only had a UK Labour Government since, was it, July, and the 100-days measure of the First Minister also needs to be put into that context, and the fact that we've only had the transformational budget in the last month. One of the things I want to say about Eluned Morgan—we've known each other a long time now—is she's the only First Minister who gives me a cwtsh every time I see her. I can see Mark Drakeford getting a little worried there.”
“Therefore, as I said last week in another debate, and I’ve spoken in so many debates now I can't remember which one, but as I said in a debate last week, I am not averse to having a private partnership with the public sector to develop these things, providing, as you know, Delyth Jewell, those safeguards are in place. And I think the planning process at this point in time is where those safeguards lie.”
“So, I think that there's a significant issue around what we expect. The disruption that would happen to communities on either side of the mountain as a result of public sector work would be almost identical, perhaps other than coal washing, if it wasn't going to happen—. It would be almost identical to that which would happen when private contractors carry out the work. So, I think it would be misleading to suggest that the public sector would be able to carry out everything in a more sympathetic way than the private sector. I just don't think that's a realistic option.”
“Absolutely, I completely agree, particularly with the point that it's pre devolution, and it's not for the Welsh Government to be spending this money. I absolutely agree with that. But one of the things I'd also add, to emphasise the point, is that there isn't a public sector company set up that would be able to do this work at this point in time. I think you'd have to have—. You'd either establish a nationalised company or you'd have to contract out to a company to do the work, and I think that's something that hasn't really been considered in some of the debate. I think the safeguards that the committee is calling for are really helpful in when that work is done. I think that would be very, very significant, and I've noticed that the Welsh Government has actually accepted the recommendations on that, particularly with regard to MTAN 2.”
“One thing I'd add with that is that, if you gave unlimited money to the public sector to do this work, they would still have to contract it out, so they'd still have to find a contractor because the public sector wouldn't have the resources themselves to remediate a tip in a professional and professionally certified and competent way. So, you'd have to give that work to someone, some private company, to do it, and there is no reason to suspect that anything different in terms of the restrictions and licensing might happen in those circumstances. There's also something you might expect, that if the public sector were told by the company, ‘We can save money if you let us sell on this extracted coal’, then they would say, ‘Yes, if that’s a saving to the public purse, then we'll take that.’”
“Okay. So, in response to that, I've questioned ERI very carefully, and so has the Caerphilly Observer as well. The Caerphilly Observer initially took quite a sceptical approach, but following links and discussions with ERI, they're starting to feel more positive about it. And ERI have told us that they will remediate the land as they go along, so it isn't something where they extract the coal, you see black tips on the countryside, and then in five years' time they start remediating. The remediation process happens as they move along. So, initially, they plant fast-growing grass over the areas that they're remediating, and then once they've moved down to the next tip, they plant over that longer growing grass, longer term grass, which is part of that process.”
“But this company called ERI Reclamation has submitted a proposal to Caerphilly County Borough Council to restore the site and use the coal only from the surface of the tip that's removed—only from the surface, from the tip—to fund the project, and make a profit from that as well, but they will not be permitted to extract any coal from the ground. I think the point you made was that that needs to be very carefully policed, because what happened in Ffos-y-fran went wrong, didn't it? I totally share your view that the opportunity for things to go wrong could happen, and therefore it needs very serious control.”
“I thank Delyth Jewell for that very constructive answer to my intervention, and I'll come to it in a second. It's worth noting that data published last year by the Welsh Government identified six category D disused coal tips in my constituency—those are the highest risk. But it's also worth emphasising that that means that they aren't at any immediate risk of slippage. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary would want to make that point as well. But the tips above Bedwas and Trethomas have been a concern to the local community. There was a proposal with the Plaid Cymru-led council to build on those tip areas, and I think there was a lot of outcry then, at that point, and it never came to fruition, which was probably the right thing.”
“I'm not sure I share Janet Finch-Saunders's rosy view of the Ffos-y-fran situation, but I'd also say that the proposed project at Bedwas is not to extract any coal from the ground; it's only to take what lies on the surface. I think that's an important distinction.”
“But fundamentally, this is one of resource; although I've tried to reduce the amount of resource I'm suggesting for that recommendation, this is one of resource. And if the review of the ALN Act and the resource that is required for the recommendations that have been accepted is not applied and is not considered by the finance Minister, then I fear we will find ourselves in a very difficult position. I wish the Cabinet Secretary every success in getting full funding for her department.”
“If there are further improvements that need to be made in the school, the school will make the improvements and will be able then to link up with the health service through my office. I think this is scalable, and it's scalable, I think, at minimal cost. Given that Caerphilly council is doing it, I think it can happen across authorities in Wales, and I'm happy to help the Cabinet Secretary develop a map of what might be done. But certainly, what is happening there is effective and that is the principle of no wrong door—you can enter at any point and make sure that your travel through the system is smooth, and you end up in the right place at the right time in the right circumstances.”
“As someone who is part of the autism community in my constituency, I've met with parents, I've held meetings at the Autistic Minds hub, and I am a member of the Sparrows ALN group where my children go to play, and through that I've met many parents who are parents of autistic children. I've found that there is a way to develop interactions between schools and health that can work, and I'd like to suggest to the Cabinet Secretary this approach. Within Caerphilly County Borough Council, Dr Sarah Ellis is the head of inclusion, so if someone comes to me and says, 'The school isn't working for my daughter or my son—we are not being treated correctly', I can go to Sarah Ellis and I can set up a meeting. She can intervene in the school on their behalf, and the trail doesn't end there.”
“But I can also understand why the Government would find it difficult to resource everything that the committee has demanded, and I suspect that committees that produce this number of recommendations will continue to find that problem in a one-hour debate. I'd like to look at recommendation 24: 'The Welsh Government undertakes further work to ensure a streamlining of services to deliver fully on a no wrong door approach across all public services, but with particular reference to the interaction between health and education services. This work should identify the barriers to effective coordination between services, as well as identifying best practice, and mechanisms for sharing this best practice.' I'd like to say that I've been part of this 'no wrong door' approach in my constituency.”
“If you try and spread those thin resources across so many recommendations, it's frankly inevitable that you will have recommendations rejected. I can see one recommendation in there that would require massive resources on its own, and it's underpinned by the Cabinet Secretary's decision to engage in a review of the ALN Act. I think that in itself needs full resourcing, and I understand the Cabinet Secretary is holding meetings with the finance Minister presently. The finance Minister must commit the full Barnett consequentials to that ALN review to ensure that the ALN Act is fully developed and improved.”
“Sometimes it's not progressed fast enough, but the progress has been certainly made in ways that our young ALN children, autistic children, dyspraxic children are being treated better today than ever before. I think to take too much of a downbeat note on some of these things is to devalue the experience of those who suffered in the 1970s and 1980s. I admit I've been an absentee member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee for various reasons, not least a conflict of interest, and I am going to be leaving that committee, but I do think it's problematic to have 32 recommendations to the Government. I think that's too many. I think it sets the people we represent and the Government up to fail because resources are thin.”
“As always, I declare an interest as a father of a disabled child with additional learning needs, who will be in a special school and is currently in a resource base. So this is very much reflecting my own lived experience, but I do have some views that might diverge from some of the Members who have spoken so far. First of all, let's put this in context. In the 1970s and 1980s, my daughter would have been in an institution, and she would have been in an institution for most of her early life. She would have spent the whole time there. It was the care in the community Act and subsequent Acts that led to the provision that we have today, and that has been built on and progressed.”
“But any budget that takes place in the first year of a Government needs to be put into the context of what happens next, and I'm confident that we're going to start to see some economic growth and classic Keynesian progress.”
“So, I'm not going to criticise Gordon Brown's budget. The later days of that Government were affected by a global crisis that affected economies across the world. I also want to raise something I wanted to say yesterday: two Labour Governments working together. We've also got a Labour council in Caerphilly, and £88 million has been provided to unlock growth in Welsh towns and cities. This is benefiting towns in my constituency, like Caerphilly, Ystrad Mynach and Bargoed. We are seeing an anchor town strategy being introduced by Caerphilly County Borough Council, and that is benefiting those towns in my constituency. So, just to wrap up—although I suspect I've probably been underdone for time today—I would say that this is a budget that fixes the foundations.”
“Can I have an extra 10 minutes for that? I really respect Mark Isherwood; I don't want to devalue his comment. I do want to say that it was a global credit crunch that began as a result of the mortgage markets in America. But I was actually in the House of Commons in 1997, sitting behind both Nigel Lawson and Jeffrey Archer in the gallery. I managed to get a ticket from Allan Rogers for the Lords gallery, sitting behind Nigel Lawson. I remember him, as Gordon Brown was announcing his budget, making a note on his piece of paper as Gordon Brown was speaking, 'Medium-term financial strategy, mark 2'. So, actually what Nigel Lawson was seeing was that the approach by Gordon Brown in 1997 was quite conservative. It was only later that extra money was spent, and that had the biggest ever boost to the NHS that has happened before or since.”
“I think we can still have that private sector involvement, which is then supported by £25 million this year from the UK Government.”
“[ Interruption .] The £1,700 million boost to the Welsh Government's budget is also massively significant, and we await with interest the Welsh Government's budget in December, when the Cabinet Secretary will unveil exactly how that will contribute to the many areas that are required as a result of 14 years of austerity. We've also seen a pay boost for up to 70,000 Welsh workers through an uplift to the national living wage—you cannot not support that—and I also welcome the £25 million provided to make coal tips safer. And I actually believe—perhaps I'm feeling a little bit Conservative on this one—that some of that money needs to be matched with private money, and that's what's happening in Caerphilly, with the redevelopment of the coal tip and coal being removed and made safe as a result of private sector involvement.”