Luke Fletcher
Plaid Cymru · Wales
“Diolch, Llywydd. Let’s focus on Great British Energy and its implications for Wales. GB Energy is poised to invest £8.3 billion over the next five years with a clear mandate to develop, own and operate clean energy assets.”
“Firstly, I'd like to thank the Chair for his chairmanship during this inquiry. I'd like to thank the clerks for progressing this inquiry as well.”
“Unfortunately, phrases like these have become increasingly hollow, because we know, and crucially our communities know, that the financial benefits of this transition often bypass the communities closet to the generating assets, flowing instead to investors far removed from these areas.”
“I'm grateful for that intervention from Adam Price. I think it would be good to hear from the Cabinet Secretary about the progress on business rates reform in her reply to this debate, or even in a written statement from the finance Minister, if the Cabinet Secretary is unable to give an update.”
“The original point still stands, though, doesn't it? We'll potentially be in a position where we are consenting to the establishment of something when we don't know exactly what that thing is going to do. That sets, potentially, a dangerous precedent for this place agreeing to things before we have the full detail.”
“Will the Cabinet Secretary take an intervention? Just briefly on evidence we'd received in our latest scrutiny of the annual accounts, the development bank referred to an upper limit to investment in individual businesses when it comes to that succession fund. Have you had an opportunity to look at that evidence?”
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“I'm grateful for that intervention from Adam Price. I think it would be good to hear from the Cabinet Secretary about the progress on business rates reform in her reply to this debate, or even in a written statement from the finance Minister, if the Cabinet Secretary is unable to give an update. I will say that the Welsh Government has an opportunity here to introduce, within its draft budget on 10 December, a budget that delivers proactive steps to improve the conditions in which Welsh businesses operate, including the business rates element of things and about, as well, how we utilise business support a lot better in order to boost productivity. We'll no doubt hear in answer from the Cabinet Secretary that we should wait for the budget. Well, take this debate as an indication of the priority of this Senedd.”
“That coffee shop doesn't just benefit from passing trade on the high street, it benefits from the fact that there is in-built footfall, and that's something that we should be looking at on our high streets, in our town centres, as a way to make small businesses far more sustainable. [ Interruption .] Of course.”
“I'm grateful to Sam Kurtz for that intervention, and I think that there are examples across Wales. We have examples up in north Wales, in Bangor, and Caerfyrddin, as well as Caernarfon. The problem we have, of course, is that that good practice isn't being shared across local authorities. I'd like to see how the Government can make amendments to the planning system to make that good practice shared more easily. I always use the analogy, actually, of Friends . The group meet in Central Perk, the coffee shop that is in their building. Most of them live above it or they live in the vicinity of it.”
“And we need to do this because, again, we talk about regenerating our high streets, and we had the example of Newport given by John Griffiths, but we can't do that without small businesses. It also requires Government to think across portfolios. Planning is a perfect example. I've been an advocate in this Chamber multiple times saying that we need to look at how we bring people into our town centres. One way of doing that is converting commercial property, especially the space above shops, into residential property.”
“Small businesses in Wales are facing a double whammy of cuts to business rates relief alongside the national insurance contribution hikes announced in the budget. Now, these policies will have an adverse impact on small businesses in Wales, which account for over 90 per cent of Welsh enterprises. I think this is why we need to look again at business rates. We need to look at rates relief again, and to use the powers in the Local Government Finance (Wales) Act 2024, varying the multiplier, thinking differently about how we ensure that the burden of paying those business rates rests on some of those bigger companies and not our small businesses that are on our high streets.”
“Will the Cabinet Secretary take an intervention? Just briefly on evidence we'd received in our latest scrutiny of the annual accounts, the development bank referred to an upper limit to investment in individual businesses when it comes to that succession fund. Have you had an opportunity to look at that evidence? If not, could you please look at that evidence? Because I think there's a case here of perhaps looking at whether or not we can increase that limit, because there are examples of some companies that the development bank could be getting involved with, but, unfortunately, because of that limit that is on their ability to invest, it stops them from getting involved and thereby protecting a Welsh business that was viable otherwise.”
“Firstly, I'd like to thank the Chair for his chairmanship during this inquiry. I'd like to thank the clerks for progressing this inquiry as well. I was really pleased, as a member of the committee, that we had the opportunity to do some more in-depth work into the operation of the development bank, because I think it's on all of us here to really understand how the development bank works, to recognise the potential of the development bank. The classification issue that the Chair mentioned earlier: the reality of the situation is that many people in this Chamber would not have known about that reclassification, yet the effects of that reclassification on the bank's ability to invest and to operate is huge. So, it's really important that Members take an interest in how the development bank operates and its investments as well.”
“4. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am waith y Llywodraeth yn ymwneud ag wythnos waith pedwar diwrnod? OQ61947”
“So, how does the Cabinet Secretary propose that we address this issue that underlines all of the issues that we see in the Welsh economy—that of ownership?”
“Now, if we truly are committed to the concept of a just transition, community energy must be at its heart. The lack of detail on GB Energy and the lack of action by Ynni Cymru has done little to address these issues around energy so far, and I fear once GB Energy is actually up and running, Ynni Cymru will be sidelined. Given, already, the lack of Welsh capital ownership in Welsh renewables developments, with the ownership of projects largely belonging to European state-owned companies and multinationals, GB Energy's success will perversely depend on partnerships with these nations whilst overlooking the needs of Wales—the very nation from which a considerable proportion of the wealth will likely be derived.”
“The original point still stands, though, doesn't it? We'll potentially be in a position where we are consenting to the establishment of something when we don't know exactly what that thing is going to do. That sets, potentially, a dangerous precedent for this place agreeing to things before we have the full detail. If UK Government is operating within Welsh Government areas of operation already, that's quite a serious issue. If this had been the previous Government, I think the Welsh Government position would have been very different. The reason why this is important, the reason why we need to get this right now is clear for us all to see. Yet again, our constituents have received the news that the energy price cap will go up, with energy prices expected to stay high for the foreseeable future.”
“Has any consideration been given to how this interplay will be managed in practice, because we really need to get this detail right now?”
“Unfortunately, phrases like these have become increasingly hollow, because we know, and crucially our communities know, that the financial benefits of this transition often bypass the communities closet to the generating assets, flowing instead to investors far removed from these areas. No amount of community washing can obscure this reality. Ownership matters. The founding statement for GB Energy gives it a role in funding the local power plan, again there is no detail yet, but the stated aim is to roll out small and medium-scale renewable energy projects. So, with this in mind, I’m thinking specifically about the role and remit of Ynni Cymru, can the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on any discussions between Welsh Government officials and their counterparts in the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero?”
“Of course, the primary concern here is that we might be asked to consent to the establishment of GB Energy without actually knowing what it’s going to achieve or how it will interact with Welsh Government organisations already operating in the energy sector. Of course, one of the primary motivations of Welsh Government policy around energy production is the community value and the community benefit of it. To be fair, the chairman of Great British Energy stated at the Confederation of British Industry's annual conference on Monday that new clean-power projects must 'show benefit' to local groups and 'take communities with us' during the green energy transition.”
“Diolch, Llywydd. Let’s focus on Great British Energy and its implications for Wales. GB Energy is poised to invest £8.3 billion over the next five years with a clear mandate to develop, own and operate clean energy assets. However, there remains a significant lack of clarity about how its promises to reduce consumer bills will be fulfilled, especially in the absence of meaningful market reform or efforts to address the inequities of standing charges. The Great British Energy Bill was introduced to the House of Commons on 25 July and is subject to the legislative consent process, yet we still lack crucial details about how this Bill will impact Wales. So, what specific concerns does the Government have about GB Energy’s operations and its potential material impact, because we’re left with little understanding of the practical implications?”
“This means that Wales is receiving a below Barnett share of the spending of Research England. What is the Cabinet Secretary's plan to rectify this?”
“Earlier this year, I asked one of your predecessors how they would ensure that routes made available to young people help bridge those skills gaps in industries such as the semiconductor industry. I didn't receive an answer at the time. Would the Cabinet Secretary be able to answer that question with a bit more detail today, or at least provide a written statement, as I understand that time constraints might not allow the Cabinet Secretary to go through things in the detail that she might like? And finally, in a previous statement, I again raised the issue of underinvestment in research, development and innovation in Wales. The allocations in 2024-25 didn't increase, and the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales had to make cuts across institutions, so it meant another year of real-terms decline.”
“The report highlights the losses in the professional, scientific and technical activity sectors amounting to £31.6 million to £42.9 million in terms of economic output. That's 20 per cent of the overall losses highlighted in the report. So, how do we militate against some of those losses and that we don't see ourselves going backwards on this particular agenda? Because, of course, that is a risk if we don't get the funding right around apprenticeships, and I'd be really keen to understand the Government's ambitions around how we fund further education. I called for a debate earlier in the business statement; I hope that's something that we can realistically move forward on in this Senedd.”
“Now, since then, these cuts have been partially reversed, but I was wondering if the Cabinet Secretary could provide an update on the Government's progress towards that initial target of a 125,000 apprenticeships. Granted, of course, the Government has already said that they don't think they're going to be reaching that target by the end of the Senedd term, but it would be good to know the total number of new apprenticeships that the Government will have established by that point. So, in essence, how far away are we from that initial target of 125,000 apprenticeships? I think this is particularly important when you consider the report published today by ColegauCymru and the National Training Federation Wales.”
“I think that that would then ensure that a lot of investments that are being made are retained within our communities—good for the circular economy, good for the Welsh economy. But I wanted to focus today on ensuring that we are supporting people in Wales to develop their skills and careers in engineering and other physics-based roles. I firstly wanted to follow up on some issues that I raised earlier in the year during the Government’s previous update. Now, it's all about skills as far as I can see it, and if we are to realise our ambitions, we need to get the agenda on skills right. So, I asked then about how we square an emphasis within the statement on growing good jobs and ensuring young people have the right skills with the cuts to the apprenticeship budget.”
“Thank you, Cabinet Secretary for that statement. Some good news—good to know that there's investment happening in south Wales. What I'm slightly unclear on is what the Government's strategy is going forward around how we incubate and help grow some potential Welsh businesses as a result of some of the innovation that's happening—some of those spin-offs. So, some thoughts on that would be very welcome: how do we essentially encourage a Welsh basis for this industry? Because we did hear a lot about investment made by American businesses, and that's very welcome, but I'd like to understand exactly how we are looking to grow some of the Welsh businesses within this sector.”
“So, I'd be interested to understand if the Government has also looked at other ways in which it could support the tourism sector. I've been an advocate for VAT to be lowered for hospitality in particular, but it would be interesting to understand what work the Government has done in that field. If I could turn to the register of visitor accommodation. Could you give further detail on what the definition of visitor accommodation will be that would then qualify an accommodation to be registered? What happens, then, when an accommodation isn't registered? And finally, will the register be public and shared with local authorities? As I said earlier, I welcomed the introduction of this Bill, but now is the time to hammer out some of those details.”
“Now, in terms of some of those concerns that have been raised, we heard mention in the Cabinet Secretary's statement about ensuring that the funds raised through the levy find their way to actually supporting the sector. Transparency, I think, is going to be key in this process, and I'd genuinely be interested to understand how the Cabinet Secretary will enforce some of those things that he has set out, in terms of ensuring that money gets to the sector, to support it. How, as well, will he be bringing those businesses with concerns along with him on this legislation journey? I think that an important point that Peter did raise around VAT was very pertinent. In countries where the visitor levy is already in place, VAT is significantly lower.”
“I know that much has been said around international comparisons by both sides. We've heard reference to where the levy is being used to deter visitors. Well, let's actually look at the example of Venice. There, the levy was being used to influence people not to come to Venice. That was at €5 a day for day-trippers only, with the levy on overnight stays remaining. Well, the reality is it failed. They didn't meet that policy objective of reducing visitors to Venice. Instead, the first 11 days of the pilot period saw nearly 750,000 visitors registered; on the same days in 2023, there were around 680,000 entries. So, the numbers went up regardless of the levy being in place. This indicates that, if someone wants to go somewhere, they'll do it regardless of whether there's a visitor levy or not.”
“I welcome the introduction of this Bill in the Senedd because now we actually have something to discuss. I have actually been really concerned about the discourse around this levy, notwithstanding some of the genuine concerns that have been raised, which I'll come to shortly. If you had listened to what some have said in the run-up to this Bill—we have heard some of that here today—you'd swear that, in order to visit Wales, you'd have to remortgage your house because it would be so expensive. That simply isn't the case, is it? On the cost to visitors, I think that 75p or £1.25 a night is reasonable. When you're already paying hundreds, sometimes thousands, to visit Wales, in accommodation costs and so on, an additional £1.25 a night won't factor into the decision of whether or not you'll come to Wales.”
“But what was clear in that meeting was that the positives won’t be around for much longer if we do not address the challenges that this report sets out. The report was very clear. The analysis measured the economic impact of losing nearly 6,000 apprenticeships in Wales. Darren Millar was right that, in the short term, this resulted in an immediate economic loss of £50.3 million in gross value added. But looking at the long-term impact, the total economic loss ranges from £158.8 million to £215.7 million. So, there’s a real crisis developing here in further education, and I feel a statement and a debate would allow this Senedd to look at it in more detail.”
“Could I add my voice to the calls made by Darren Millar for a statement from the Government on the joint report released today by ColegauCymru and the National Training Federation for Wales on the impact of the apprenticeship cuts? Could I also as well ask for a debate in Government time on how we fund further education going forward? There are very clearly issues that need to be addressed, and I feel a debate in the Senedd would give ample time for Members to go through the different models that could be available. I think the Trefnydd is right to want to focus on some of the positives, and, of course, the joint meeting between the cross-party groups on apprenticeships and further education did exactly that today.”
“When I asked the Cabinet Secretary, through a written question, what the total cost is to Welsh businesses of the UK Government's decision to increase employer national insurance contributions, do you know what the answer was? The Welsh Government doesn't hold the information requested. So, we can't trust the ONS, according to Welsh Government, and we should just take the Government's word on this. Look, if it's not as bad as all that, then share the data that forms the basis for that assertion, because there is anxiety amongst SMEs right now, and they are looking to the Welsh Government to alleviate some of that.”
“Does the Government look at rates relief? These are questions that are being asked by businesses right now. Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, as Rhun has already mentioned, the claim that these measures won't hit the pockets of workers nor curb employment simply isn't true. Even when you avoid the definition of what a worker is, workers will be hit by higher prices and lower wage increases. We know that the NIC rise will be a drag on a Welsh jobs market that is already anaemic, which in turn will further hit stagnant living standards. Now, I wasn't sure about the Government's response to the latest ONS statistics that showed Wales with the lowest rate of employment of all the UK nations and regions. The Welsh Government's written statement simply casts doubt on the validity of the statistics themselves.”
“So, I would therefore urge the Government to ensure that businesses are fully informed of the changes in eligibility criteria and thresholds well in advance of the next financial year, and we also then need to see the Welsh Government looking at how it can use its own resources to provide businesses with every opportunity to thrive in these testing conditions. I think that's why the upcoming Welsh budget is an opportunity to extend that olive branch. We have heard regularly now from Labour Members that the consequentials received through the autumn budget will be transformational—well, here's an opportunity to show that. Does the Government look at freezing the non-domestic rate multiplier as it currently stands? Does it look proactively at the use of its new powers in relation to the multiplier when they come available in April?”
“It's also worth emphasising that the highest relative increase in cost would fall on employers of part-time or seasonal workers, which would then have implications for the hospitality and independent retail sector in particular. And, of course, we wax lyrical in this Chamber about wanting to support the hospitality sector and about how important pubs, restaurants and local shops are in enriching our town centres and high streets. Well, the cost of failing to support them cannot be measured simply in pounds. They're an important cultural aspect to our high street. Now, I acknowledge that the employer allowance has been upscaled to offset some of the damage, but this needs to be claimed by employers.”
“Small and medium-sized enterprises are quite literally the backbone of the Welsh economy, when you consider that they make up over 90 per cent of business activity in Wales. And let's face it, they’ve faced some challenging times. They've had the pandemic, the cost of living, inflation, energy prices, cuts to business rates relief, and now, undeniably, there's this additional challenge facing them. The increase in employer national insurance contributions will lead to added costs. To put that into context, for a microbusiness employing five people on the minimum wage, this adds up to an extra £3,800 per year in overheads, which then equates, roughly, to 4 per cent of the average annual turnover of Welsh microbusinesses.”
“So, what I'm really keen to understand here is how the Cabinet Secretary will address those issues and concerns that are raised by small businesses in Wales regarding the potential inclusion of glass in a deposit-return scheme, and then what steps will be taken to ensure that any scheme introduced is both fair and practical for those businesses.”
“I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for setting out that timeline there. I think it is fair to say that there has been a bit of a mixed reaction and some confusion around the DRS in Wales. The problem, I think, was the fact that it was torpedoed by the previous Government, when they announced that they weren't including glass in their scheme. I have my reservations on the inclusion of glass; I have been consistent on that point. And there is, very clearly, some anxiety amongst businesses on how the inclusion of glass will actually affect not just the financial position of those businesses, but also the logistical position of those businesses as well, the additional costs that will be there. You will, of course, be aware of Bang-On Brewery on Bridgend industrial estate, who have been very vocal in their concerns.”
“2. Sut y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn cydweithio ag aelodau eraill o'r Cabinet a Llywodraeth y DU i gydlynu cefnogaeth i bobl ar ôl iddynt gael eu rhyddhau o’r carchar? OQ61886”
“Social media companies are not doing enough to crack down on that sort of content being pushed to people of my age and my gender’s social media pages. How we actually tackle that is another question. To be fair to Welsh Government, I’m not entirely sure what Welsh Government can do on that front, but I think it is something that we do need to consider as a society and something that we do need to consider when dealing with social media companies, because, right now, it’s unregulated, and, quite simply, they’re getting away with murder.”
“I mean, look, nobody is perfect, and I’ll hold my hand up—sometimes I have to check myself in some of the things that I might find entertaining and laugh at, in the some way that my mates also need to check their behaviour on what they might laugh at or find entertaining. But what really does worry me, actually, is the corrosive effect of social media, and it’s something that I don’t think we’ve got a handle on just yet. I could pick up my phone right now and look at social media, and straight away, whether it’s YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, you’ll come across something that is clearly being targeted at young men of my age, of my particular background, which is purely misogynistic. I think we’ve seen that especially over the last couple of months with the elections in America.”
“Thank you to Mabon for tabling this short debate. I think it’s an incredibly important debate and I was really proud to represent Plaid Cymru at last year’s vigil. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to come to this year’s vigil, but, of course, I wish the very best to Joyce and those who’ll be at the vigil in holding a successful vigil and raising awareness around this. I think it’s important to recognise that, actually, it is, in large part, men who have to recognise our behaviours and change those behaviours. And I want to touch particularly on culture and its role in this.”
“In anticipating the Government gaining the ability to use the powers in the local government finance Act, what preparatory work is being done in the context of wider reform of the system?”
“I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I listened with great interest to the exchanges across the Chamber earlier on in this session. I take the Cabinet Secretary's point that half of businesses in Wales don't pay business rates, but I'm not sure if that detracts from the potential of varying the multiplier for business rates, because, as far as I can see it, what varying the multiplier could do is shift the burden of who pays those business rates, and whether or not they are paying enough of that share of the overall pot. If we look at that, and we do shift that burden, there's a potential there to free up some of that cash that we use for business rate relief to be invested elsewhere. Is that fair to say?”
“5. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am waith Llywodraeth Cymru i ddiwygio ardrethi busnes? OQ61841”
“I’ve said a number of times that supermarkets, out-of-town shopping centres and large chains should be paying more business rates, using that funding then to lower the business rates for some of our smaller businesses, some of our Welsh businesses on the high street, and then by doing that, helping to regenerate the high street. So, I’d be really interested in his thoughts on what the potential of varying the multiplier would be, and if he agrees with me that this might be something that, although it might seem quite boring, would have a massive impact for those small businesses here in Wales on our high streets.”
“But what I really want to get out of the Cabinet Secretary this evening is his thoughts on varying the business rates multiplier. Because prior to this budget, a number of conversations were had between myself and his predecessor around that proposal for varying the multiplier, and she conceded prior to this budget that to match what was on offer in England was too expensive for the Welsh Government. But I really think here we have an opportunity to deliver something for businesses on our high streets—those small businesses, those Welsh businesses—that is going to be relatively inexpensive, so changing the emphasis on who pays what within the business rates system.”
“We’ve had some lively contributions from all sides of the Chamber this evening. I’m slightly concerned that I’m going to let Members down with my contribution now, because what I want to talk about specifically here is business rates. Of course, there is a perception that there is a better deal when it comes to business rates across the border. What we saw in this budget was the potential of business rates reform. We saw that 40 per cent business rates relief as well. I could try my luck and ask the Cabinet Secretary what the Welsh Government’s response will be in its own budget, but I imagine the answer is either going to be, ‘It's too expensive’ or, 'Wait for the budget’, which I think is actually the more likely answer.”
“That collapse will happen if we continue down this path. The ripple effects will extend beyond GPs to reception staff, practice nurses, not replacing those partners that leave practices. So, without a change, we will face longer waits for appointments, more patients forced to seek emergency care due to lack of GP access, and an NHS under unbearable strain. So, we can't afford to overlook these warning signs when it comes to locum GPs, and I would hope that the Cabinet Secretary is aware of the situation in relation to locums, and I would appreciate his thoughts on how we can get to grips with this particular issue.”
“That's in England, but here in Wales the symptoms of the same crisis have been visible for a while, yet the data doesn't seem to be available, and I believe that this should be investigated a bit further. Anecdotally, I've been told of locums in Wales looking to other fields. Some are considering jobs in retail and driving taxis. At a time when we're crying out for GPs and we all accept that there's a shortage of GPs, this situation is madness. Trained doctors are being forced out of healthcare by what is essentially a funding structure that fails to recognise their value, because that's ultimately what this does come down to. The situation with local GPs and sessionals is, as one GP described to me, the canary in the coal mine, warning us of the potential for a much larger collapse.”
“I welcome this debate—a primer debate, I think, for a lot of the work that's going to be happening through the Health and Social Care Committee, coming down the line. We can listen to contributions that are being made across the Chamber and I think we're all in agreement that there is an issue within GP practices, whether that's a funding issue or a lack of GPs. I think the frustration for GPs comes from the fact that, despite all of us agreeing that there's an issue, we still have yet to come up with the solution. I want to focus in particular on locum GPs. This was an issue that was raised with me by a number of GPs in Bridgend. Data from England tells us a bit of a shocking story. A survey carried out by the BMA has found that nearly four out of five locum GPs can't find work, despite patient waiting times reaching record highs.”
“A number of residents have approached me over the last couple of months with different dates in hand about when works are going to start, so there's a real communication issue here. So, what I would impress on the Government is that they need to co-ordinate how they're communicating with residents a lot better, because right now that is equally causing as much frustration as the works begin to progress.”
“Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I appreciate you allowing me to come in on this. Tom Giffard is right, the residents in Caerau—or at least the feeling I'm getting—have lost complete faith in politicians and organisations to resolve this issue after over a decade or more dealing with it. One resident's daughter has lived in these conditions for as long as she's been alive. Now, I wouldn't accept those living conditions; you wouldn't accept those living conditions; nobody in this Chamber would accept those living conditions. I just want to pick up on one thing that was said in your answer to Tom Giffard, which is that residents are being given a timeline and a timetable for when works are going to happen. That's not what we're hearing on the ground.”
“Does this mean that the Government is planning to revisit the idea of rent controls when sufficient data is gathered, or has it dismissed the concept altogether, because there is a space and there is a clear need in Wales for a well-designed rent control system?”