YouSaid · the spoken record

Ankur Goyal

lines on the record: 39
first: 2024-10-08
most recent: 2024-10-08
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“You can write LLM and code based evaluators and then run them automatically on some fraction of your logs. Sometimes that actually even allows you to evaluate things that you're not allowed to look at. And so the LLM is allowed to read PII and crunch through something and tell you whether your use case is working or not, but maybe no developer or person at the company is. And so I think that is a really interesting unlock.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, AI already evals itself. So very similar to traditional math, I think if you're doing like a math homework assignment, it's way easier if someone gives you a proof to validate the proof than it is to actually generate a proof in the first place. And sort of the same principle works for LLMs. It's way easier for an LLM, especially a frontier model, to look at the work itself or another LLM and accurately assess it. And so that's already the case. I think probably more than half of the evals that people do in Brain Trust are LLM based. I think some of the interesting things that are happening as LLMs are getting better and as GPT-4 quality is getting cheaper is that people are actually starting to do LLM based evals on their logs. So one of the really cool things that you can now do in BrainTrust is”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There are things that people are trying to do today that are past the extreme, like auto GPT is a great example of something that is, I think, a really productive experiment in pushing AI past what it can reasonably do. But people are always going to push things to their extreme AI is an inherently non-deterministic thing. And so I think evals are still going to be there. We might just be evaluating more and more complex and interesting problems.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Hybrid between, in some ways, it's kind of like GitHub. You create prompts. Now you can create more advanced functionality with Python code and TypeScript code and stitch it together with your prompts in the product all the way through to evals and observability. And I think we're really excited about building a universal developer platform for AI. In terms of quality, having lived through the pre-LLM era, I actually think a lot of the anxieties and predictions about quality are exactly the same as they were pre-LLM, even when we were doing document processing stuff at Impura, people were like, oh, hey, all documents will be perfectly extracted within six months from now. And LLMs, by the way, are amazing, but document processing is still not a totally solved problem. And I think it's because people will take whatever technology they have and push it to its extreme.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Hey, actually, I'm already doing observability and evals and stuff in BrainTrust. I'm spending so much time in this product. Why do I have to go back to my IDE? Which, by the way, knows nothing about my evals. It knows nothing about my logs. Can I work on prompts in BrainTrust? Can I repro what I'm seeing live? Can I save the prompts and then auto deploy them to my production environment? That actually, it scared the crap out of me thinking, you know, just from my traditional now old school engineering perspective. But it's what people wanted. And I was talking to Martine, who just became a brain trust daily active user quite recently. He spends like half his day now tinkering with prompts in AI town in BrainTrust. And so even old school engineers, you know, like us, it's definitely the right way to do things. And I sort of see Brain Trust evolving into this kind of”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I asked myself that question every month or so, and surprisingly little changes. But Brain Trust, we started out by solving the eval problem, and I think we did that really well. And what we realized is that there's actually this whole platform that people want. One of our customers actually Airtable early on, they used our evals product to do observability. So they literally would create experiments every day as if they were evals and just dump their logs into those experiments. It's pretty obvious when someone starts doing that, that they're trying to do observability in your product and we dug into why. And it turns out that in AI, the whole point of observability is to collect data into data sets that you can use to do evals. And then again, eventually fine-tune models or more advanced things. But still, evals is the most important element there. And the next thing that happened is that some of our customers said.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Some ways, but those companies are very influential and they've led to many, many more customers now. So I think that was the most important thing.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I mean, I think I went to the Elod School of Hard Knocks and learned a bunch of stuff early on from you. But really, the thing that we did was we made that list of like 50 people who we thought were leading the way in AI and said, you know, let's try to figure out a way to get to these people and either recruit them as investors or as customers. And I think that was probably one of the most important, if not the most important things that we did. Some people, for example, were excited about Brain Trust. We had known them for a while. They invested and they said, you know what? We've already built our own version of this internally or we don't care about this. But we think other people will need it. So we'd love to invest. And actually many of those people have now come around and started using Brain Trust too. So just being very deliberate about who our target market was, I mean, 50 companies is not a huge TAM.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Dealing with ops, helping with recruiting. And working with him has kind of freed me up to spend a lot more time doing that kind of thing. Whereas at Empira, I spent probably like half or more of my day doing those things.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Very different. IT bought enterprise software, and they bought it based on checklists that product managers came up with. So I think a lot of this has changed. And for me, it just feels very natural to participate in that change by being very, very deep in the product. And as hard as I've tried over the past decade plus, I just can't, I think I'm just literally addicted to writing code. It is the fastest, most efficient, and most pleasurable way for me to participate in what we're doing as a company. And so instead of trying to change that, which I've done, at Brain Trust, we've kind of engineered the company to support me spending a lot of time writing code. For example, one of the first people we hired was Albert, who was formerly an investor and investment banker before that. He's incredibly good at everything from selling, marketing.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“My perspective on this has changed a lot over time. When I was much younger, I started leading the engineering team at Single Store and then became a CEO. And people give you the conventional advice about what you should do with your time and who you should hire and stuff like that. And first, I think the profile of CEOs is changing. And second, I think the market is changing. So in the world that we are in, which is enterprise software, people really, really care about the polish of the UI that they're using. I think companies like Notion, for example, have really driven people's taste on those products. But when many VCs were having their formative experiences and observing the patterns that they would eventually mandate among their portfolio companies, things were”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think what we've seen from a lot of our customers is a consolidation of vendors. And this is very, very, very much driven by AWS. So AWS has its mojo back now that they have anthropic on bedrock and anthropic is especially Cloud 3 and 3.5 are really, really good. And so because many companies were consolidating their vendors prior to AI, AWS is so dominant. And now you can actually consolidate a lot of your AI stuff on AWS as well. We're seeing pretty dramatic vendor consolidation. There's some companies that we talk to and their AI vendors are, it's literally OpenAI, AWS, and Brain Trust. And pretty much everything else has consolidated away. So it'll be interesting to see what happens. I certainly wouldn't underestimate. AWS and the hyperscalers, especially on the infrastructure side.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Think the biggest thing I've seen over the past six months is people dropping the use of frameworks. So early on, I think people thought that AI is this really unique thing. And just like Ruby on Rails or whatever, we're going to need to build new kinds of applications with new kinds of frameworks to be able to build AI software. And really, I think people have walked back from that and they now think of AI as kind of like a core part of their software engineering as a whole. And so AI is now kind of like pervasively spreading throughout people's code base. And it's not constrained to what you can create with a single framework.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That comes out of an AI model into a well-defined structure that the rest of your software system can use. Python has a pretty immature type system. They're improving and I always get trolled on Twitter when I post about this by people who make somewhat valid arguments. But TypeScript is just a much, much better language for writing software that deals with uncertain shapes of data. I think that's actually kind of its whole point. I think it is actually literally a better suited language for working with AI.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“First of all, a vast majority of our customers use TypeScript. And early on, some of our customers were dealing with like, should we use TypeScript or Python? And some teams were using TypeScript. Some teams were using Python. Now almost everyone, including people that used to write Python primarily is using TypeScript. And I think that's going to continue forward. There's a few reasons for that. One is TypeScript is the language of product engineering, and product engineers are the ones who are driving most of the AI innovation, at least in the world that we participate in. And so there are just literally pulling the AI ecosystem into their world. And that is driving a lot of TypeScript stuff. Another thing is that TypeScript as a language is inherently better suited for AI workloads because of the TypeSystem. So the type system basically allows you to launder the crazy stuff.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Would start with a group of really smart product engineers because the first thing you need to ask yourself is what Parts of my product or whatever I'm offering can be cannibalized or completely changed by modern AI. Product engineers are generally the best people to think about that. You can get really far with a really good UI and very basic AI engineering.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Now I think more companies have come along the journey, and I've seen a lot of really smart ML and data science people embrace LLMs and bring a lot of the sort of rigor that is still relevant around evals and measurement and prototyping and so on and become these AI platform teams. Usually it's a combination of people with product engineering backgrounds and a few folks with statistics or data science backgrounds. And they start by building kind of like a marquee product for the company and then they evolve into a platform team that enables the N plus first project to be really successful. We see a lot of these teams forming as AI becomes more pervasive.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I went through this myself watching the technology that we built to do document extraction at Impura become totally irrelevant. And personally, I think it's an emotional thing. You try GPT-3 for the first time. And first of all, back then at least, it was kind of snarky. And so that was a little bit irritating. And it was also just way better at everything than anything you could possibly train. I think that is so fundamentally disruptive to a lot of companies, a lot of people's individual identity. It just is not easy to wrap your head around if you've been doing AI in ML for a while. So I think it was largely an emotional thing. You could argue that there's a cost security, privacy, whatever element of it, but the companies that were sort of on the leading edge, they were able to figure that out pretty quickly.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I think what's really interesting is many of the early adopters of LLMs didn't have any ML staff when ChatGPT came out, you know, what is it now, almost two years ago. And those companies were able to move really quickly because they kind of started with a fresh slate. Many of the smart folks that I know that are classical machine learning people or data scientists have now come around. But actually there was this big sort of resistance among them early on that LLMs are, they're not good at the things that we're trying to solve or maybe it's a scam or something like that.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But they make LLM calls kind of like throughout the entire architecture of the product. And so that's probably the biggest thing that we're seeing now is I don't know if there's a good term for it yet, but maybe this kind of pervasive AI engineering throughout a product rather than trying to shove everything into the while loop of an agent.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There's a couple things. So, one is companies that are fairly deep into their journey, they have like one or two North Star products that are pretty mature and they're trying to figure out how to get those products to the next stage. Probably the most consistent thing I've seen is companies kind of walking back from the illusion that totally free form agents will solve all of their problems. So I think maybe like two or three months ago, many of the pioneering companies went way down the agent rabbit hole and they kind of realized like, wow, this is actually not the right approach. It's so hard to control performance. The error rates are really high and they compound really quickly. And so, you know, most of those companies have kind of walked back and tried to build a different architecture where the control flow is actually managed deterministically by their”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Sort of hypothesized that the Zapiers and notions and so on of the world would have pretty similar use cases. And so if you focus on these kinds of customers, then when they ask for stuff, you can pretty readily assume that other similar customers are going to have the same problem. And that's allowed us to be very, very customer-centric while building a product that repeats itself for more customers. And now what we're seeing is that, you know, the next wave of companies that are building with AI, both startups and more traditional enterprises, they actually want to be engineering things like the products that they admire, most of which use Brain Trust. And so a lot of those best practices are now built into the product. And kind of the next batch of companies is able to consume them right out of the box.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“For example, if you do a front end interview at BrainTrust, one of the questions involves writing some C, and we lose a lot of candidates because of that question. But it's a good signal that maybe BrainTrust isn't the right place for you to work because we do like to hire people who are willing to jump around in areas of the stack that they're unfamiliar with. So I think that's one of the biggest things that we've carried over. Another thing that I think we did really well at both Impira and MemSQL is have an obsessive relationship with our customers and just really, really focus on making them successful. It's sometimes really hard to prioritize customer feedback and think about 10 customers are asking for 10 different things. What do I do? So what we've done at Brain Trust is actually be very deliberate about which customers we prioritize, especially early on.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“One of the things that I honestly took for granted at MemSQL, but we've kind of re-implemented at BrainTrust, is having a really hard technical interview. You know, MemSQL, maybe we pushed it a little bit too far, but it was really known for really strong technical excellence. And I think our interview reflected that. So that was actually one of the first things that we did. Manu and I spent probably like two or three days working through a bunch of really, really hard interviews.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's going to be a huge shift. And there's this huge debate about vector databases and will traditional databases do vector database things. I think that debate's kind of silly. I think relational databases are perfectly capable of adding HNSW indices to them. What will really be disrupted is the OLAP workload. So relational, you can't just slap semantic search and stuff into the architecture of a traditional data warehouse. I think that is actually a much deeper set of things that will need to change than the OLTP workload.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Purely from a data standpoint, it's important to think about what you're going to do with the data and then how the infrastructure enables that. Data warehouse is really designed for ad hoc exploration on structured data, which neither of those two things is relevant in AI land. You're dealing with lots and lots of text and you're not exploring it ad hoc using SQL queries. What we see actually as kind of what the most advanced companies are doing is actually using embedding and models themselves to help them sift through tons and tons of data and find, for example, customer support tickets which are not well represented in the data that they're using for their evals or not well represented in their fine-tuning data sets and trying to find those examples and use them. So I think the workload is going to shift. And I actually think LLMs and specifically embeddings are going to be core to how people actually query data, not traditional algebraic relational index.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Is very, very different, like just hoarding data about your claims history or transaction history. It might not actually be that useful. The real question is, how do you construct a model which is really good at reasoning about the problems that you're working on? And I think the way that enterprises will collect data and leverage it into these AI processes does not look like doing ETL on a data warehouse that's running in Amazon or something like that. I think it's going to totally change. And I've seen, you know, like a lot of the data that gets stored in BrainTrust through people's logs, it actually never makes it to a data warehouse. And, you know, people, they just don't really care about that because if they put in a data warehouse, what are they going to do with it?”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The shift is that people have hoarded lots and lots of semi-useful data in data warehouses prior to LLMs. There was actually this whole industry around AI where companies like Data Robot, for example, would come in and help you train models based on these proprietary structured data that you've collected in your super proprietary data warehouse. And I think the big insight or the crazy non-intuitive thing about LLMs is that something trained on the internet outperforms what an enterprise can produce with their own data trained on data in a data warehouse. And I think not only is the nature of like the data processing problem different, but the value of data is actually how we think about the value of data.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I am a developer and I love open source software. And I have a very difficult time with the fact that every time I use an open AI model, I'm paying a fee per token. But then I actually look at the numbers. And of course, I've looked at them with our customers too. And in some cases, it's just negligibly cheap. And in the cases where it's pretty expensive, the ROI is actually really high. And so most of our customers are really, really focused on providing the best possible user experience for their customers and the fastest iteration speed for their developers. And everything else is secondary. So I think until open source can really move the needle on one of those two axes, it's going to be tough for it to be adopted broadly.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We are very close to a watershed moment for open source models like we saw at the watershed moment for Anthropic when Claude 3 came out, and especially Claude 3 5 Sonnet has really taken off. We are very close to that, I think, with Llama 3.1, but we're not there yet. So we see very limited practical adoption of open source models, but I think more interest than ever.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, I think it's kind of like the difference between writing Python code and creating an FPGA or something. So with instruction tuning, all you do is modify the prompt to include examples of how it should behave. In some ways, it's actually very similar to fine-tuning. You're collecting data that guides how the model should behave, and then you're feeding it into a process that kind of nudges the model towards behaving that way. Fine-tuning is a much lower level thing where you're actually modifying or supplementing the weights in a model so that it learns from those examples. And because it's so much lower level, it tends to be a lot slower, more expensive. There's a lot of ways you can injure the model while you're fine-tuning and actually make it worse on real-world use cases. And so it's just a lot tougher to get right.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Was easy to execute. Now it's extremely cheap actually to run GPT 4.0, but there's this kind of period where it was really hard to have GPT-4 access. And GPT 3.5 fine-tuning was a way of, it's like the only lever for some use cases to improve quality. But since then, honestly, I think almost if not all of our customers have moved off of fine-tuned models onto instruction tuned models and are seeing really good performance. We even talked about that early on. I remember when we were thinking about brain trusts, we thought like, oh boy, you know, everyone's going to need to use this to fine-tune models. And that was one of the first features we were thinking about building. And no one's really doing it.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Unambiguously, people are doing rag. So that one is simple and obvious. Probably around 50% of the use cases that we see in production involve rag of some sort. Fine-tuning is interesting. I think a lot of people think of fine-tuning as an outcome, but it's actually really a technique. And the outcome that people are looking for is automatic optimization of their workloads. Fine-tuning is one way of doing that, and it is a very, very difficult way of automatically optimizing your use case. I think with our customers have re-benchmarked fine-tuning on their workloads. I would say every two to three months. And there was a period of time when GPT 3.5 fine-tuning came out before GPT 4.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“One of the biggest things when you're building AI products is this uncertainty about quality. So you might, for example, get really excited about a feature, build a prototype, it works on a few examples, you ship it to some users, and you realize it actually doesn't work very well. And it's just really hard to go from that prototype into something that systematically works in an excellent way. And I think what we have helped companies do is basically like demystify that process. So instead of having a bunch of anxiety about, hey, I ship something, I don't know if I'm ever going to get it to be able to work well. You can implement some evals in Brain Trust and then sort of turn the crank and get really, really good outputs.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Pervasive technology throughout the whole org, not just a project that Brian might babysit and work on with one team. And having a really consistent and standardized way of doing things was really important. I remember early on Brian pointed me to the Vercel docs and he said one of the things I love about this is that when new engineers are building UI now, they read these docs and they kind of learn the right way to build web applications. And you have that opportunity with AI. And I found that actually really motivating and really influenced how we think about things.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Many of our customers had actually built early customers, had built internal versions of BrainTrust before we engaged with them. And there's a couple things that sort of came out of that. One is it helped them gain an appreciation for how hard the problem is. Evals sound really easy. Oh, it's just a for loop. And then I look at console.log the for loop as I go and I look at the results. But the reality is the faster you can eval, the faster you can look at eval results, which start to get really complicated as you start doing things with agents and so on. The faster you can actually iterate and build stuff. It is actually a pretty hard problem to do evals well. And many of our early customers who were kind of like the pioneers in AI engineering had learned that the hard way. And I think the other problem is that folks, especially folks like Brian, for example, they saw that AI would be”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Feedback and complaints and ideas into something, I think that's really powerful. And yeah, that's how we kind of got started.”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's implied by that. Problems that existed pre LLM probably are going to exist in LLM land for a while. And the second thing is that having built the same tooling essentially twice, it was clear that there's a pretty consistent need. And so I have very fond memories of the two of us hanging out and talking to a bunch of folks, Brian and Mike at Zapier and Simon at Notion and many others. I've been in a lot of user interviews over time. I've never seen anything resonate like the early ideas around brain trust and really everyone's desire to have a good solution to the eval problem. So we got to work and built honestly a pretty crappy initial prototype, but people started using it. Brain trust just over a year later has now kind of iterated from people's”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, for sure. I have been working on AI since what one might now think of as ancient history. Back in 2017 when we started working on Impura, things were totally different. But still, it was really hard to ship products that work. And so we built tooling internally as we developed our AI products to help us evaluate things, collect real user data, use it to do better evals and so on. Fast forward a few years, Figma acquired us, and we actually ended up having exactly the same problems and building pretty much the same tooling. And I thought that was interesting for a few reasons, some of which you pointed out, by the way, when we were hanging out and chatting about stuff. But one, Imperio is kind of pre-LLM. My time at Figma was post-LLM, but these problems were the same. And I think there's some”
2024-10-08 · No Priors · Launching AI products with Braintrust’s CEO Ankur Goyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT