YouSaid · the spoken record

Anuj Rathi

lines on the record: 79
first: 2023-12-07
most recent: 2023-12-07
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Yes, so I'm on Twitter. It's on twitter.com slash anajarati. And LinkedIn, you can just search my name. I'm pretty active on both of them. I do a bunch of not podcast all the time like you host, Lenny, but a bunch of other events as well as talks. So keep on posting on Twitter. We can find”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So we just started like me and Excalia of Mindshivi. So we We essentially wanted to meet cool people around. So that's how it started, like interesting people without Ajinda who can come together and discuss interesting sub average entrepreneurship, about startups, about products, about connections and so on and so forth. So it just started like that. And now we are on to many, many more interesting things that we are bringing in in terms of cohorts. Which will be theme based. So it could be around product management, around marketing, around growth, and so on. We are strictly keeping it not-for-profit for at least the next year, but long way to go.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Call it a life motto as much. But one of the things that I keep telling my people who work with me alongside me and so on is stop externalizing. That's one, which also means the more artistic way to say that is you are the reason for your own misery. So that's something that keeps using a lot more in a fun way. But if things go wrong, if that leadership meeting didn't happen that way, if my product bombed and so on, go back and let's ask ourselves, what could we have done better? What I could have done better and so on. And of course, because I'm also a poker player. So in a way, I understand there is half luck involved and half skill. But over a long period of time, if it's only luck and you're failing and feeling and feeling, you have to go and look back at your skill. So yeah, you are the reason for your own misery.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The very recent product that I like is called Rise. It's a sleep tracking app because I am kind of an half insomniac and for the longest time I was thinking about how can I track this? What am I doing and how can I actually get better at this? So really like the way that they actually help the end user. It's just been a week since I've started using it, but recommend it.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Look for essentially their assessment of risk, their assessment of How important have they assessed the market and the competition or the competitive products in that market? And if their answer is, let's ship something and we'll find out and so on. That also gives me basically a point of view that they really don't understand that this product, what they're talking about with the shibbole speed is not reached the V part of the MVP. It's not viable or it's not or I don't know how do you call it MLP or like whatever, but it's not differentiated enough that it can be marketed. It is not worth enough where we can take it to user. It's not going to work for a lazy win and selfish user. And maybe that's not the answer towards speed versus excellence versus, for example, there are some products which are very clear competitive differentiation that we can find. There was a clear market gap. I wanted to learn something, even if it is harp paid, no problem. I want to go take it out, get used.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Which are the products where you decide speed is more important versus which are the products where you decide excellence is more important? And I think that gives me like a good understanding of their frameworks and why they're designing what. And then we go back into concrete examples where they chose one versus the other. Then take it from there.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I really like to do reruns of the office. So I was trying to think about this, what is the recent movie that I watched? I'm like, no, I keep on going back to the office and some other episode and try to drive a lot of stories from Michael Scott.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“One book is working backwards. We covered that. The other one that has shaped my beliefs a lot is called How Brands Grow by Professor Callon Sharp. The two pass to it, how brands grow one and two. That's both very good. The other book which I really love is, and recently Kunal Shah, who's the founder of CRID and Indian startup he suggested, is the luxury strategy. And the reason why I love that book is because it gets into the depth of the human psychology behind hierarchies and how lords and kings and those kind of social hierarchies have shaped how people think about aspirational products and so on. So highly recommend it.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Just last few words that I just want to revise. Work backwards from an amazing future. So, first thing is creatively imagine a future and then work backwards from that and essentially think what will make that successful and be paranoid about that everything is going to go wrong and hence I need to just make sure that it all comes together.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Perspective, and even the restaurant side also from that perspective that you know, we both are together in the service of the industry.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And they will create a marketplace from the point of view of sellers which can actually sell. Again, they will have the same consumer app and a seller work and so on. They are in the service of sellers. So you really need to derive from the company's vision. I think the way we had thought about it at Sweden, that we had to clarify in our values that the first value is initially it used to be customer comes first. But that was very confusing because everybody is a customer. Restaurant is a selling customer. and so on. We had to clarify consumer comes first, like in consumer, which is actually eating food because we're a convenience company that delivers to the end consumer. And when you're thinking about restaurants or delivery partners, then we work with them because we both are, when you're talking with the delivery partner, Swiggy and the delivery, we both are in the service of the customer. So you will build that app also from that perspective.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“One thing that I think marketplaces need to realize is that A, you need to be operating in a stable marketplace. So all sides need to be stable enough so that they're not going to go away. So I think that's the starting point. And that's an important point because once we have established that, then after a stable market is, then we say that which are the kind of customer that they're in the service of and which are the customers that we will really focus on. For example, Amazon is very, very clearly a customer-centric company. And if they have to make a choice, they won't because they need to have a stable marketplace. So sellers also are very as important, but slightly more important than the customer. For example, if you looked at Alibaba, their way of thinking is their aim in life is to create life-changing experience for 10 million Chinese sellers.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Example, for the first ride, first 10 rides, and so on, or put zero money in there, but incentivize my drivers that you need to come here. So you have to think about liquidity also in very different ways. And sometimes you need to pull the lever completely towards the other side. So the experiments, so AB experiments also don't work. And that's a very unique thing about marketplace. It doesn't work. I mean, not work the way that you would expect them to work because there are network effects all over. So if you have to run AB experiments on your driver's side, if you put half drivers on A versus half on B, but there is a network effect between the both of them.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Now that you mentioned Uber, for example, one of the things that companies which were running taxi businesses, if you have just one limited pool of money, for example, and you want to get the marketplace humming with respect to number of orders per day, how do you decide, should I incentivize my users?”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And at the same time, how will I really work with the user to manage their emotions? So you need to manage a whole bunch of these things together. And product management here, you cannot have the delivery executive product manager only care about that side. They also need to be a champion on the consumer side and vice versa”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I've seen OCAS file multiple times when you're running this kind of a marketplace. Big bets work much better. That's when you say, hey, we want to take this bet, but it's all going to be going to come together as if we pull this lever, then something else will change. So here's the entire story of, let's go make this profitable by making delivery fee higher, but maybe not touching earnings per hour or maybe not touching restaurant commissions, things like that. So I have at least found that's a better way to choose strategically which direction we have to go. The other thing is, Managing multiple empathies together. That's not straightforward. So again, Swiggy being like a real time hyperlocal marketplace. And we discuss about that.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“End user. So if you have, if you have an example of on the consumer side, we need to collect more delivery fee. What does that really mean for those other two? And on the restaurant side, hey, we need to get more commissions because profitability is a goal. And on the delivery partner side, it means pay them less or optimize a little bit more. So, but once you start moving one lever, those two are already stretched towards the other direction. So they are not independent levers in the first place. And the way to even model them out, how will it work out if we choose x versus what y's will change, y on z. Z will change. It's almost impossible to do that.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Fundamentally, OKRs are a way to think about objectives and key results, but the fundamental assumption here is that it is solving for a kind of user. And that kind of user you can divide and conquer. And of course, there will be like a little bit of tussle between different teams, but you can get them to work with each other. But if it is working for three different kind of users, then all the goals will all the time be in conflict with each other”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“One thing that I would definitely want to talk about is when you're thinking marketplaces, it's not as a one plus one equals two. It multiplies. We are thinking about three way marketplaces. You almost not need to think like, A two dimensional plane going into three dimension, like it becomes that amount of complexity and your regular product management and leadership principles kind of start failing. So a bunch of usual suspects will not work. Let me give an example. OKRs will not work. Why not?”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Instead of that, you can think about how I get AI to work with Agile. And again, it's connecting back with, and this is something that Swiggy CEO Hirscha invented this term called AGI, just to make sure that everybody understands artificial intelligence is important as much as human intelligence. And if you're not humanly intelligent, you're not going to be artificially intelligent or AI really help your company a lot. Literally any product that you're building, even when it is technologically quite interesting and exciting and so on, it needs to be balanced out and work together along with a great UX along with behavioral science. And the combination of those two will actually make sure that you're getting the best outcome of that unless you are building something which is completely back and with no human interventions. Consumer products largely.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I think a couple of things. I think working with AI, many, many teams and companies get too excited about AI and the possibilities and so on. And it's almost like a solution ready to find a problem within their companies, which also is fine because now you're thinking about possibilities on what this particular technology can do for my company. So it's a good way to start. But many people don't actually use it in the best way possible and force with it.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Product leaders or other leaders are not thought through what OKRs are doing to my company. Not really fully thought through around org design. If you have read the book called Team Topologies, that's like one interesting book, which starts with Conway's law and essentially saying, show me an engineering architecture and I will actually tell you what the org design of this company is. But that also manifests itself in products. You can basically look at a product. In most cases, you will be able to say what was org design that led to this kind of product.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Won't they? Are they not aligned to you? Do they not agree with your vision? Do they not just have enough time? And so on and so forth. So you need to really go deeper there. Why won't they do? There are different answers for that. But if it's a setup issue, and at least I have realized that apart from what product managers can do, almost 70-80% of problems why things don't happen are a setup issue.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“When is it a product manager problem or your problem or the company problem? There are only three reasons again why things do not happen the way you want them to happen as a leader. And you can look at a person and you would say either that person can't do, which is a capability issue, or they won't do, which is a motivation or an alignment issue, or they were not set up to do, which is really your problem that you didn't set up the ways of working in org design properly, or your OKR structure sucks and so on and so forth. So as a leader, it's almost the opposite of what we talked about, grit influence in raw shops. Do you have the right people in terms of capability? And if not, is the right answer for us to coach them or to really put them or mentor them and so on or move them to some other place? Because maybe they're capability suited elsewhere. If they won't do, why?”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think even smartness, I think 80% of that smartness, I think is something that's very achievable. You don't need to be outstanding in that. Domain knowledge, for example. Average smart per person with no domain knowledge versus you armed with a lot of knowledge around domain and so on can already take you there where you can take better decisions. I think first one is more about decision making problem identification, problem solving and all of that. So I think that really can be developed at least to a level where you are very effective. Drive, I think, is probably the hardest to coach, probably the hardest. I've not seen people with less drive actually eventually turning out with a lot of drive, etc. But they can be inspired. And I think you need to be a person who can think about it that way. But the third one influences, I think, like there is no negotiation there. You need to really think that I have to be good at this one. There's another framework that Linnea wanted to talk about. And when I look at product leadership in general and how do you think about different people and so on, why is it?”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, that's right. Awesome. Because I think it's not as if that everybody is born with a lot of influence. Of course, you can get better rated, but just a prospect of that, hey, I will need to be influential to succeed at this job. That should excite you and not scare you away. And you should not think that, hey, you know what? I can get away from this and still be a very successful product manager because most likely you will not.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, I don't think about particular domains that you come from. I have a simple framework of three. I think the first thing is essentially raw sharps and that can manifest itself into problem identification and problem solving. That's one. And also hair raw synthing and all of that. I think that is super important. The second one is what I call drive or grit because I think with that comes a whole bunch of qualities around curiosity, learnability, never giving up, consumer backward thinking. I really want to solve this and all of that that comes with that. Third, which is a little difference. We talked about that, is influence. You're in the business of influence. And if you can kind of see yourself that I'm built this way or I want to really get better at these, that's when I think this field is going to serve you well.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Which is, I think most product managers, and again, I'm probably talking a little bit of the kind of people that I've worked with and have kind of interacted with in product. Most product managers should not even be product managers. They should think a little bit more around whether this is actually the right field for them. Because I think a lot of people from other areas have entered the field without fully realizing what it takes. So there is definitely a way in which you can coach yourself and kind of work your way upwards of that one. But it's It can make you quite miserable if you're not kind of, if it's not right for you.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, one for example, excellence and speed, there's always a question around that hey, would you rather chip faster or would you rather ship better? In my opinion, when you have to make a choice, think more and ship better. Most experiments should be thought experiments. They should not even be tried out because they're obviously going to fail, which is contrary to let's try it out and then let's see. I think that wastes a lot of company time. If you had smart people who could do meta-thinking, a lot of experiments would just not even be like it's not a rule, but it's a preference. I think speed and excellence are two different axes. Ideally, you should be better at both. But if you had to choose one, choose excellence. There's another contradiction opinion.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Element of Amazon comes in, which is disagree and commit. So, but once we have aligned on this one, we'll all commit to launching this, and then the leadership should not go back and forth on that part.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“100%, 100%. So when you have explored the three, you essentially have done the work one that I have covered all bases and also crystallized them into a concrete option. And now I'm choosing one on the company's behalf on the basis of whatever I know about the market, about the company, about our strategy, and about how we will make it successful. Now, if I miss something, it's also a time where you can actually work with leadership and other product managers to essentially get that knowledge complete or if there are, if you're 80% right, you can actually use elements of strategy two and strategy three to bring into one. So that's always the way that you're thinking that one very concrete option, but because you have these other two, so that you're not missing and bringing it together. But ultimately, you're the one who is going to champion this. That's where the other leadership.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They have been signed up for a big bet, then they will need to contribute to the PRFAQ, they will need to contribute to the actual working of that, irrespective of what their product was. But now they are part of something bigger.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Create the conversation around which buckets do we want to put in and create three alternatives. I have kind of tried to do that a bunch of times. Let's look at strategy A and these C have to be divergent. Suppose we were putting a lot fewer focus points in Berlin Basics and a lot more on, for example, big bets, then there will be a risk that they will be like, we won't have any experiments or very less experiments. We won't have your bugs will stay bugs. But we will get a shot at like kind of changing the game. Is that a future that sounds better or something else, which is like, because you're pained also by a lot of bugs and constant downtimes, which is more secure, but we won't build something amazing. So which sounds better? Because you are able to drive that, now the clarity to the product managers is way clearer in terms of what will they do. And also they would know that if they are”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In the next year, I can invest a lot less on my Brilliant Basics. And we should as a company focus a lot on this breaking back because that is existential. But then we should not look back and say, why would tick systems a little bit broken this time? Why were we had a little bit more downtimes? And you can basically blow it out and almost showcase what to expect. For example, if we are just working on a whole bunch of bread and butters, so you'll start seeing a lot fewer bugs, customers will be a little happier. You worked a lot more.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Now we wanted to do grossly delivery as well. It's like a, these are two companies working together or from a food delivery company we wanted to become a convenience company. So that's almost breaking bad. Again, like I said, we got cheesy. But the good thing that happens is now what you can do is along with your leadership take stock. The head of product essentially can say, you know what, I can”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“These are brilliant. These are important. That's where the company's built on and the company needs to invest in that. So that's one. The second one is bread and butter. So that's your backlog. If the product managers had no big ideas and they just were left on their own, what would they come up with? And in terms of just improving that line of business that they're given. And there are big bets. Now that's where your larger ideas that have come together. But how many big bets should we take or is this big bet even a big one? That's where you are working backwards or PRFQs start becoming even more important because those are the kind of bets that cannot be taken without everybody basically signing up working backwards and saying we will all make this successful. And breaking bad essentially is a different world altogether. That's where you want to redefine your company. You are doing, for example, in Swigi, we were doing food.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, what are the ones? So, we call them first BB's brilliant basics, and there's a reason why we call it brilliant basic. You need to brand, you cannot brand it as pick debt. So it feels like very off.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Contribution from four or five of you that come together and deliver that, or there are places where a company is just reimagining their identity or they're pivoting, which is like, all right, we were doing X. Now we are doing X plus Y. That's how we want to be known. Or we were doing X. Now we want to do very little of X because current consumers, okay, we will take care of them, but now we want to pivot into Y. So it usually is in four of these buckets. What really happens is It gets down to product managers eventually prioritizing between these four. So I don't think it's a tactical prioritization product manager call. It really is a product strategy call. And the conversation that needs to happen is between, say, the head of product and the CEO or even leadership. If I gave you 100 focus points, how much will you put in each of these buckets? And one of those four buckets, those are the four BB buckets.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We essentially saw that if a startup actually usually wants to do like a bunch of things across the board, there's always, hey, I should be investing in tech debt or like building core platforms that will really help my product in the long term. And that's super important. And that's my injuring managers and largely people asking for that bandwidth. And then there is the product manager themselves who is basically saying, I want to do feature enhancement, bug fixes, my version to a few areas, experiments and so on and so forth. That's a regular product backlog that you would work on on sprint by sprint. Then there's this leadership which will say, you know what, now we have a suite of products. Now I want to take like a large delta bet that may work. It may not work, but we need to make sure that it works. But I need work done across teams. And it's not only one person that needs to do it.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The other thing that it helps, Lenny It also helps in choosing directions. Like I said, it's because we are not doing one, but three of them. And why I'm choosing one alternative versus the other. And sometimes these strategic discussions, they can go in like all sorts of different ways. And maybe you will talk about one particular unique point and go deeper rather than look at the entire picture together and say, this is good because of all of these five points that we presented in page one versus the other one.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think the largest impact that happens here is on alignment. So how CXOs are thinking, if that is not very clear, and that can be a document and so on and so forth. But for a lot of people, it's not very clear on, I can see one part of the funnel, I can understand the marketing team can understand the best why we are acquiring those users, but they don't kind of fully see the picture of if I attract this kind of users, why will some of these users become loyal? And what does that entire thing look like or say some other team which is building a part of the product? Where do I come in and so on? So I think the largest impact that the show don't tell has is on basically getting the entire company together on the same page and them being able to understand why I'm doing and which part of the entire picture I am working on and why others are working on so that I can actually work with them to solve that part.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“How did we get them to cross pollination to different sections? Do we need a membership program? Are there any different levers which we'll press more or less and so on? So that also is like a show don't tell and not only one, but usually I like to create three of them as well. Why would we choose a strategy versus the other? And that, for example, is like a very good way for product leaders to kind of get to one strategy. And something that they can essentially tell the entire product and other teams. This is what we're going to follow.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I think it's not only one way at Swiggy. I think every product manager to do a show don't tell version of their current version. And at the same time, there's a new version all the time. So they can compare and contrast and very easily kind of explain everyone why they're doing something. In fact, that wall, so it's called the wall. It also becomes one common place where you can get all the stakeholders in because it becomes, instead of just doing the elevator pitch, you can actually do detailed discussions on why I'm choosing this versus something else and so on and so forth. That's a product manager's version of doing this. There's also product leader's version of doing this Linux, which is which I call strategy on a page. And a lot of people call it like growth loops. Don't show a user's journey. Now let's see the entire strategy of the company together on one page. All right, this is what the market looks like and why will we get what kind of users and what is our activation budgets and how many of them are we going to get to this next stage and get them to use it.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And let's create various scenarios. Is it like, hey, maybe he went to the restaurant and the food is delayed or the dude on a bike, his bike got punctured, et cetera. What is the consumer thinking at this time? So you show all of those things in real time and that kind of cuts out a whole bunch of random ways in which the product could have looked like if you're creating even a chatbot. So just having that showcase of all journeys coming together helps a lot in building your products in the right way.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And then when we say, all right, then this app got open. Do we have the right kind of way forwards for Lini to actually achieve what he came here for? Literally each pixel and each copy and each word is going to be in service of that part. So that's showing the entire journey rather than just saying and assuming. So it's something that I've found really powerful with respect to even designing products or even thinking about why are we building something. What it also helps is when we are building complex products, especially in marketplaces. Because once you are building this for the user, simultaneously something is happening on the other part if it is simultaneous, if it's a real-time marketplace or something like that. So you're building something for the user and saying, all right, if this guy ordered, now there's a 30 minutes time when a delivery executors will come to the user with food. What is happening? What's the emotional state of the user? And let's plot out the 30 minutes.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Actually, start bringing together your marketers and others in terms of what is literally the first screen and how is my user getting here. And it's not as simple as he imagine somebody who will be doing this and reaching here. We try to recreate an exact situation. There's a concept of person not personas. So when we talk about personas, but we try to go to Don't think about a generic user. Let's say Lenny, 30 years old doing ABCD things, earning this much, etc. His relationship with this category of food delivery is X. These are the things that he has done in the last month. In the last three days, they were the needs, aspirations, fears, frustrations, etc. Okay, it's 11 o'clock. What's happened? Why is this used open or what triggered this particular app? And then what happened? So you literally start from there. And I think 50% of my product reviews are around that part.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Actually, Shodrund Dell is an idea which is an extension of what we were talking about from working backwards. When we are talking about working backwards, one is a PRFQ, which is like a written documentation of what we're trying to achieve. Show, don't tell, is essentially a way in which the product manager starts ideating with the entire experience. And they actually create all the collaterals together of a user you need to begin with if you're working on a single player product, which is a single user product. And then”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You have built partnerships and have run your ideas or product through those people and gotten weighted from them and finally made a decision around that part. I don't think you'll be very successful. So in my opinion, the full stack product managers are the ones who are going to be more successful rather than product managers who are doing very good at one particular area only. So there's one book which is range. I'm sure you may have heard about it, right? Even the first chapter, what they talk about is they take two examples. One is the example of Federer, Roger Federer. So with Roger Federer, for example, I think I'll just continue that. That till 18, he played like a bunch of racket sports. And this wasn't even tennis. But then you bring in ideas from one racket sport to the other and second to the third and so on and so forth. And now you have such a range of ideas that you can connect a lot more dots and actually ship it.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, I think it's the same thread that is connecting the first and the second. I think product managers have to be Have to own outcomes and not only features and parts of the problem, they will own some parts of the problem fully, but if they need to work with everybody to make sure that eventual product that the launch is successful. And not only successful from the point of view of, hey, we launch something that works for our users, etc. That's not the definition of success. Did it work in the way that it really changed the behavior of the kind of user that we wanted to achieve a business outcome? that it build a capability that is important for us all of those things combined will not happen if the product manager is only thinking about their part so they have to think about external users they have to think about competition they have to think about other product managers and product leaders about engineering about marketing and so on because it's such a diverse field unless you really and i'm not saying you need to be an authority of that unless either you you are very very good at that or”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In terms of we'll write down the different segments of delivery partners, and sometimes it will have extremely weird correlations because just the product managers on one side of the equation have started thinking or at least consulting the other part of the marketplace, what could this mean for you? And just it gets everybody together to create very crisp products that work for all sides of the marketplace.”
2023-12-07 · Lenny's Podcast · The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source