YouSaid · the spoken record

Barbara Tversky

lines on the record: 106
first: 2020-01-24
most recent: 2020-01-24
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“So Lee Ross, who's a dear friend, was at Stanford working with Dick Nisbet, and they were working on Essentially biases, they're social psychologists, and they were working on biases in the way that we interpret other people's behavior and our own behavior. In those years, cognition was really active in social psychology, thinking about an individual. So one of the things they came up with is called the fundamental attribution error. And that's that we attribute our own behavior to the circumstances around us and other people's behavior to enduring personality traits”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Sure, sure. I mean, I like to say we live down the street from each other because we both live in the corner of Broadway, but a hundred blocks apart. No, he's been a really loyal friend, and I appreciate that.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Was just And gave me a great deal of intellectual pleasure, personal pleasure. Danny would often visit us, stay in our house when we were at Stanford, and he was at Vancouver and was tended to work late at night and wake late in the morning, so I'd have breakfast with Danny. Danny's great company, and that was a pleasure.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And they'd come out for tea and a lot of the conversations were in my house and they'd come out for tea or they'd come out to tell me something that they were dying to tell me. And when Danny would leave and Amos would be with me, I would hear a recap of the discussion and the conversations and the stories, the questions they were asking students. So I had a front row seat to everything that was going on. It didn't interfere with my master.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Heels I had the advantage of understanding Hebrew and English and the conversations would go back and forth and be mixed.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'm not sure if I said more intense than a marriage, but it was certainly intense like a marriage. They really loved each other. And they formed a close friendship. And the way they worked together was gleeful and joyful until it wasn't.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, I don't think so. It's not that I mustn't have secrets, although few from me. But no, I don't think there was anything there that I didn't know.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“When you didn't know the guy and you know all of us are complicated and we're different with different people in different situations and he probably caricatured Danny and then you're capturing them at a particular point of time and we're always changing I mean the book's a great story and what impressed me too I mean Michael learned the work And he kept telling me, I feel like a B student studying A plus work, but he really learned it. And I think his portrayal of both of the history meal and Lou Goldberg and other people who'd done similar work before their work, Robin Dawes, people who were influences on them or in the same ecology and getting the work right, I thought he did a masterful job of explaining the work to lay people.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Amazing and he got Amos in many ways. I mean there are errors in the book, but some people were disturbed by the portrait of Amos' only being interested in his work because he really was helpful on every way, both personally to people and in the departments in which he participated in the university. He was a super good citizen so that he was single-minded about his work isn't quite right.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I wrote him at great length what that was like, and later I found letters I think my brother sent them, I found letters that I written my parents. Everything that I'd remembered was correct. Which is astounding”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And by then I'd learned enough Hebrew that I could understand what the chief of staff, Yitzhak Robin, said on the 10 o'clock news. So that's a longer story, I can tell it. And in fact, Michael asks about that, and I told him in great detail, he said, turn on your novelist eyes. What's it like to be an American coming to Israel? So I wrote in the 60s.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't know if it's collaboration. Michael sat in my office at Stanford going through Ames's papers. He really does his research beautifully, complete concentration. And he would ask me questions and I would answer them. If something was in Hebrew, I'd try to translate it for him. He asked me questions by email and I answered them at great length. And that was, I think, an easy way for us to communicate. At one point, I came to Israel, a young bride in the middle of graduate school with no Hebrew whatsoever.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. He never put that together. He didn't put it together. And I don't remember if that was before or after Moneyball, but he didn't put it together. And the upshot was that it was Oren who introduced me to Michael. Oh, really? Which was sweet. Over email, which, I mean, I think Michael asked Oren. Michael, he ended up talking a great deal with my three children and ended up being quite fond of them, which of course warms a mother's heart.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So I said, Danny, whatever, I trust you completely, whatever you think I'll go along with. So the side part on that story is, I think for a year or two, Michael taught a course in finance journalism at the Berkeley School of Journalism. One point he opened it up to be school students. Our oldest son, Oren, was a student has at that point and took Michael's course and they hit it off.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Tells the story over beer, Michael asked Docker about this work, and Docker says, sure, Danny lives up the hill. I'll introduce you. So Danny was willing in his generous way to talk about the work, explain it to Michael, because Michael realized he needed to know about it, if he were interested in statistics. He needed to know about how people misuse them. So I think Danny said, if you walk with me, we'll talk, because Danny walked. And they gradually, I think, struck up a friendship, and I think Michael tells it that he got the idea of writing a book about their friendship, about Danny and Ames's friendship. And Danny came to me and he said, Michael wants to write a book. And if he doesn't do it, somebody else will. And Michael likes us. And he named another person. Who was waiting in line and said, That person doesn't like us.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In Brooklyn at the time, Danny no longer has a home there. And the way Michael tells the story of how they met, Michael did go to business school, but he went too early to have learned Kahneman Forsky, and he came to it quite late. And he came to it indirectly. He'd written Moneyball, an amazing book, and Dick Thaylor, and I think Kass Sunstein wrote a review, a New Republic. And they said, the book is great and all that, but Michael needs to know about Kahneman and Forsky to understand why coaches scouts were misled and Billy Dean. So Michael, at that time and now is living in Berkeley, one of his closest friends is Docker Keltner, who was a graduate student in social psychology at Stanford and Taed actually for my husband.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right. And what I tried to argue is that this kind of spatial thinking is more direct. I'm expressing it through a diagram or expressing it through my hands. It's a direct representation of the knowledge. So even if I'm explaining, if I'm talking to you about a situation where people are arguing or whatever, I use on the one hand, on the other, I've created a diagram. I've put all the things that go with this hand on one space and the things that go with it on another in another space. If I talk about people rising in a corporate world, I'm going to use my hand to go up. So I'm illustrating all those ways of thinking with my hands, and it helps you understand and it helps me express”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right, and so we find with environments we also find it teaching people how a car break works. They model it with their hands. So what's again extra interesting about that is the hands are representing the information. Language also represents the information and a sketch will represent the information. So we have many different ways of representing.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So if you think about the language is arbitrary, and it's very hard to understand a spatial description, what I can do with my hands is model the environment, and that's what I do. I turn the words into a model with my hands that my hands are representing the information in the description.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“To put something on paper, we have some other examples of that, but I think the most striking ones are gestures for yourself. So we put people in a room, they're alone, not talking to anybody. They're reading a complicated description of space, locating, say, eight landmarks in a larger space. It's new to them, and they're going to be tested. So they have to learn it. And if you watch them studying, they're looking at the screen, and their hands are making a map. They're drawing lines for the paths and points with emphasis on the table for landmarks. And when they do that, they're more likely to be correct on the exam. And if we tell them to sit on their hands when they're reading, they do worse.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Both, said So for the speaker, so think of cyclical thinking going from a seed to a flower back to a seed. If we ask people just to represent that, they tend to represent lines, not cycles, but if we gesture in a circle. They'll put down circles when we ask them”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, no, it's lovely. And I think what you're saying that we can get information just through hearing, we can get it just through reading. So human beings are enormously adept at learning from different media and where they don't get filled in. But if face-to-face conversation does involve gesture, and we did a number of experiments showing that the way people gesture when they're explaining something changes the thought of other people.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Compensates for another to some extent they clearly compensate. So I recently had the wonderful opportunity because of a talk I needed to give of delving into Leonardo, who's by all accounts one of the most brilliant thinkers of all times. He thought visually spatially and he thought through sketching and he used sketches as a way of understanding dynamic processes that not just static ones because sketches are static and in fact he used the way he drew as a way of understanding the way vortices happen in water. So the way he drew them and he used many different perspectives. So he was very much a kind of visual thinker but he was able to get to enormous abstractions through the visual spatial thinking. And there wasn't much math.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, those are again ways of talking. They don't have a lot of evidence behind them. Even spatial thinking turns out or visual turns out to be quite complicated. It's many different features. Verbal too, we know people that can produce words but can't think straight and vice versa who are hard to come up with words but think very logically. So verbal abilities are quite different and spatial abilities are quite different. The bad news is you can be good at both and bad at both. It's not that one”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right. So people think of themselves as visual thinkers or as verbal thinkers or computational thinkers, or I think kinesthetically.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In the brain there aren't maps in the brain, there aren't photographs of people. It's all neurons. And we use these terms like language and spatial representations and images of faces and so forth as a way of talking. And in fact, there are places in the brain that are dedicated to recognizing faces or scenes. And even rudimentary concepts of number. There are places that are activated, but in the end it's neurons. And these are ways of talking. And again, the idea that we gather information from all over the cortex to make a judgment, whatever seems relevant, seems to me a model not just for space, but for all judgment.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My recollections of maps that I've seen. So I'm gathering information from many different places to decide is the entrance to the Bloomberg building going to be on Lexington or going to be on 59th. And how do I find it? And so I'm making those decisions that way, balancing that information, gathering from many sources. It's not a coherent system. And I do think that's a model for all kinds of judgment. And the context is going to determine what information is salient and what information isn't, what I'm bringing up now, what I'm bringing up in other cases. So I do feel that this cognitive collage idea is really a model for the way we make judgments in many situations. If you think about what's in the brain, there aren't calculations.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's going to vary and what I liked about the collage metaphor is its multimedia. If you go back and look at Picasso and Bronck, they put newspaper clippings in and paintings in and all kinds of things in it. And again, people think, or many researchers thought, that our views of our environment are more or less vertical. And I think our research and the research of many other people show it's filled with small biases that aren't coherent. You try to put them together, different perspectives on the world, different landmarks. You try to put them together. You don't get anything that would work on a Euclidean space. In addition, it's multimodal. So if I'm wandering around New York or another city, there are some things I know from language that I need to go four blocks this way in turn. Some things I know. from recognizing”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think we just don't even notice that it's missing. We see airplane and we're coding it on that level and adding those details. So this is an example from Scott McLeod who wrote a brilliant book on comics. And he says, you know, someone sitting at a desk, you can't see their legs because the desk is covering it up. But you know they have legs. So we're filling in in that way. We fill in on language. We fill in all the time missing information. We're guessing. And usually it's right because we've learned those contingencies in the world. I think almost everybody has at some point experienced an argument with someone that they're close to and say misinterprets what they're saying emotionally. And that can lead to disastrous escalation of an argument. I mean, you were angry. No, I wasn't angry. I was sad.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And those are you can find them online. They're wild, so you don't know what's changed, but you know you've seen a jet plane, people going up on it, cargo being loaded. In the background, you get this feeling that you see a rich scene. But it's because we're refreshing it all the time.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I don't know that I would say it's one or the other, rather something in between, but sure we're filling in all the time. There are some lovely experiments on our worldview now where you show a photograph and then another photograph where something has changed, like even an engine is often a jet plane, and show them in rapid succession. And people think they've seen the whole scene, but they cannot identify what's changed.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. And one of the early studies that was done on that was by Jerry Brunner, an old friend in Molly Potter, and they showed out-of-focus photographs of odd things like a fire hydrant at an odd angle, and they gradually brought them into focus and asked people to keep guessing what they were and compared them to a group that saw them in focus. So these odd angles, like an odd angle of a fire hydrant, people came up with wild hypotheses, and when it was in full focus, couldn't identify.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yet an improv is exactly the right example for that, for that kind of creativity. I have a former graduate student who talks about art making. She's an artist, an excellent one, as improvisational. And you have to keep your mind open to new ideas. And I think you're right. You can develop really good skills for doing it.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“before they Tendency towards routine. Exactly. Quite interesting. What's, I think, interesting also is the way we got people to generate new ideas for these old things. How do you use an umbrella in creative ways? Well, it can be sticks to hold kebab, but that was the ninth idea. Right. And it's clever and cute. But the way we got people to think creatively was to ask them to think about different roles of people. So how would a doctor use this? How would a gardener use it? So we asked people to put themselves in mindsets of other professions. And professions are something we know a lot about since we were three. People asked us, what do you want to be when you grow up? And we interact with people with different roles. So we know a lot about what those roles do. And that helped people generate new uses”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They are hanging on, and I'm glad to see because I'm a fan. So in order to design, we have to get rid of those old ways and think anew. And we just finished an experiment asking people to think of new ways to use old things. And the good answers come about the ninth answer.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. And thinking of a new way to build a teacup or a new way to design a chair, these are what designers have or a new way to design a school, maybe the old way of designing schools isn't as good as it could be. Libraries have changed enormously now that in a little while there'll be no paper books. I mean, I'm happy.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. Right, and missteps So on creativity and learning, we have to learn routines to get through the day and otherwise if everything is a new problem, it's going to take too long. How do we get a key and a door and how do we make toast in the morning? So we have to get into those routines. But once we have those routines, it's hard to change them. So creativity requires thinking in new ways.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The costs of these decisions? Right. I mean, it's a cost benefit, and I think economists understand that everything is a trade-off. I'm not sure that psychologists understand that well, so then they'll say if people miscategorize somebody, had a toy gun, not a real gun, that we shouldn't be categorizing at all. And I want to say we have to. We do.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“something at me to hurt me is someone throwing something at me so I can catch it and our behavior is going to be very different.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Offset each other interesting. And I mean, that's a nice example. So I think, again, the mind is quite simple. We want simple, straight answers. Things are always this and things are always that. And we categorize because the number of things in the world is huge if we had to think about each chair individually or each cup individually. It would be overwhelming. So we categorize things as chairs and tables and dogs and cats and that enables us to know how to recognize them and how to behave toward them. Now we can miscategorize and that happens often tragically in certain situations. But we forget that we need those categories on some level because we have to behave very quickly and we have to respond very quickly. Is someone throwing”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, I started writing the book and I realized that certain of the things that I was saying, again, many of them about space had generality to thinking in general or behavior in general. And I wanted to point to those and encapsulate them in a way. Then it became laws. And I have a good friend who comes from medical science, very hard-nosed researcher after the book was written, and I couldn't change anything. I'm confused by that because she was thinking of physics laws, which are laws, and you can compute them and get answers that will in fact hold. So these are not like that. They're generalizations, and I think that fits with the way social sciences see laws as kind of generalizations. Okay.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, they are defining categories, really, and these peripheral instances don't. So those are spatial ideas. The distance, whether it's distance in color or distance in political leanings or distances in some kind of psychological or physical similarity, the son to the father. If we're in one political leaning that everybody in another political cabinet, they're all alike, my group is highly differentiated, but it's because it's close to me and I can see the differences. I don't see the differences in those others. So we tend to think of them as all alike, but our group is differentiated.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So you get that asymmetry, and these are, this is research I didn't do, I pointed to it, but it's very related to research that my husband had done earlier, showing that people, this is going way back in history, people think that North Korea is more like communist China than communist China like North Korea. Or the Son is more like the father than the father like the Son. So we have these landmarks or prototypes, and they draw similar things into them. Eleanor Rosh had earlier done work showing that people think magenta is more like red than red like magenta. That makes sense.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. So a number of studies have been done where people on college campuses pick landmarks. They have those students pick the landmarks and then another group of students is asked about distances and you get those asymmetric distances. So the example I use is that people think that Jacques's house is closer to the Eiffel Tower than Eiffel Tower to Jacques' house. And one explanation for that might be that the Eiffel Tower defines a neighborhood. Columbus Circle is a neighborhood. The village is a neighborhood. We tend to form neighborhoods around these landmarks, and if someone says, where do you live, you can say, I live near Columbus Circle. And that tells people the environment. And so the neighborhood is quite expanded. It includes Jacques' house, but Jacques' house only includes itself.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Love that phrase. Okay, thank you. So we did some work on how people understand the environments that they walk through every day. And there are a number of distortions that people have that indicate that people are constructing their images of environments. So the grid pattern, we tend to line things up in parallel and perpendicular lines and ignore diagonals and ignore five-sided things like the Boston Commons. People often act as if it were four-sided kind of quadrilateral, not a Pentagon. It's not really a Pentagon. So we distort. So some of the distortions are really quite remarkable. The most remarkable is probably that people think that distances to a landmark are smaller.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“reason about other things or logic or computer programming. We have a number of these cognitive tools that we have built through culture. They're culturally evolved. We're not born with them. And they enable leaps of thought. We now have computers that do help us think and help us design. So we've developed a number of these cognitive tools that help us structure our thinking and will leapfrog our thinking. We can use them to think farther. So I don't need to compute square roots anymore. I have them in my calculator. I can use that to leapfrog and go to other levels of understanding.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is the one way is, I think, okay, how to answer that. One way are things that I've already said that we think about actions on ideas the way we think about actions on objects, and we go from place to place the way we go from idea to idea. That probably affects the structure of language. That's my hunch, and I didn't work that out very well. You asked earlier, how does language bootstrap our thinking? And I think language is one of many cognitive tools that we use. We can then use language to reason about other things, the way we can use math.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, and that again is illustrating different ways of thinking and different ways of designing. But both are designed, and I think one of the points I tried to make in the book is that we design the world the way we design our minds. So both Japan and the US, New York with its grid system and many other cities with grid systems, even the Romans had grid systems and some Chinese had grid systems. In fact, Japan has grid systems. They just label them differently from the way we do, but those designs go across cultures with variations. But they have to do with the way we design our minds.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right, this is years ago because unfortunately all too long. But we would walk in Paris, in New York places where we were tourists at the time. And when we'd come back, he would say, did you see all those prostitutes? I didn't pick up a single one. And, you know, I was looking at other things, the architecture, maybe what people were wearing. I wasn't seeing that.”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right. And some of the problem with thinking is we don't know where B is We start off with A and we're trying to solve a problem that maybe or we're just letting our minds wander? No, I think if anything Thoughts go from association to association? And those associations are going to be wildly different. So I'll give you a small example. When my husband and I used to walk in streets in cities that”
2020-01-24 · Masters in Business · Barbara Tversky on How the Mind Works · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source