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Barry Barish

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2021-08-23
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2021-08-23
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  1. Well, I would hope To the extent that they evaluated me, felt that I helped move science forward as a contribution. Tangible contribution and that. I served as a good role model for. How human should live their lives

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  2. But even life, the mystery of consciousness I find so hard to deal with too. I mean, it's not as painful. I mean, we're conscious, but the whole magic of life we can understand, but consciousness where we can actually think and So forth. It's pretty

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  3. Yeah, and I'm not happy to see it come to an end. I'd like to see it prolonged. But I don't. I don't fear the dying itself or that kind of thing. It's more. I'd like to prolong what. I think a good life that I'm living and still living.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  4. Not exactly afraid of it, but saddened by it and I'm old enough to know that I've lived most of my life. I enjoy being alive. I can imagine being sick and not wanting to be alive, but I'm not. And so,

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  5. Philosophical question. A philosophical question about the meaning of life. I'm probably not really good at. I think that The individual meaning of I would say it rather simplistically is whether you've made a A difference, a positive difference, I'd say, for anything besides yourself. Meaning you could have been important to other people or you could have discovered gravitational waves that matters to other people or something, but something beyond just existing on the Earth as an individual. So your life has meaning if you have affected the Either knowledge or people or something beyond yourself. That's a simplistic statement, but it's about as good as I

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  6. Telling me all about this exactly. It's one big metaphor. So reading it later as a metaphor. I could really enjoy it. But the teacher gave me the wrong book, or maybe it was the right book because I went into physics. But it was truly, I think, I may oversimplify, but it was really that I was too young to read that book, not too young to read the Russian novels. Interestingly, but too young to read that Because I probably didn't even know the word, and I certainly didn't understand it as a metaphor.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  7. Fascinating. Okay. Now, why did I have a problem? I know now in reflection because I still read a lot and I read that novel after I was 30 or 40 years old. And the problem was simple. I diagnosed what the problem was. That novel in contrast to the Russian novels, which are very realistic and point of view is one huge metaphor. At 15 years old, I probably didn't know the word, and I certainly didn't know the meaning of a metaphor.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  8. It may be. So the problem is Moby Dick is what I remember was there was a chapter that was maybe a hundred pages long all describing us why there was Ahab and the white whale and it was the battle between Ahab with his wooden peg leg and the white whale and there was a chapter that was 100 pages long in my memory. I don't know how long it really was that described in detail the great white whale and what he was doing and what his fins were like and this and that. And it was so incredibly boring, the word you used that I thought if this is great literature, screw it.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  9. And the The book that we read, even though I had read Russian novels, I was fifteen, I think, cured me from being a novelist.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  10. But I changed what happened? Oh, I decided to take the most serious literature course in my high school, which was a mistake. I'd probably be a second rate writer now.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  11. I just My own belief it may not be very deep, but I believe it. I think you should follow your dreams and you should have dreams and follow your dreams if you can, to the extent that you can. And we spend a lot of our time doing something with ourselves, mind my case physics, in your case, I don't know, whatever it is, machine learning and this. I should have fun.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  12. Well, I think she may be originally Ukrainian. The book's written in Russian and then translated in English, and many of the interviews are in Moscow and places. But she won the Nobel Prize within the last five years or so. But what's interesting is that these are people of all different ages, all different occupations and so forth. reflecting on their reaction to basically the present Soviet system, the system they live with before. There's a lot of looking back by a lot of them with Being much better before.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  13. To reveal that. The most recent thing I read isn't actually fiction, was the woman, I can't remember her name, who got the Nobel Prize within the last five years. Know whether she's Ukrainian or Russian, but there are interviews. Have you read that?

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  14. Oh yeah, he was his description of kind of how to make To go through a day and actually enjoy it in a prison camp is pretty amazing. Oh, and some prison camp. I mean, it's the worst of the worst.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  15. And he always confused me. Of course, he was really... Really important and Writing about Stalin and first getting in trouble and then later he wrote about Stalin in a way I forget what it was what the book was in a way that was very critical of Lenin.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  16. It is, but it has all the, if you haven't read it in recent years, I had read it before, of course, but to read it during this, because it's about a plague. So it's really a fantastic to read down. But that reminds me of, you know, he was a great existentialist. But the beginning of existential literature was Dost So, in addition to his own great novels, he had a tremendous impact on Literature

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  17. Read quite a bit of Russian literature at that time. And so you asked me about the, well, I don't know how to say a few words Dostevsky. So what about Dostevsky? For me, Ostevsky was important. I mean, I've read a lot of literature because it's kind of the other thing I do with my life. And he made two incredible, in addition to his own literature, he influenced literature tremendously by having, I don't know how to pronounce polyphony. So he's the first real serious author that had multiple narrators. And that's a he absolutely is the first. And he also was the first. He began existential literature. So the most important book that I've read in the last year when I've been forced to be isolated was Existential Literature. I decided to reread Camus The Plague.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  18. Make the entire conversation about this. That's the real surprise. When, uh, I didn't really. Become a physicist or want to go in science until I started college. So when I was younger, I was good at math and that kind of stuff, but I didn't really. I came from a family. I didn't know he went to college and I didn't have any mentors. But I'd like to read when I was really young. And so when I was very young, I read I always carried around a pocketbook and read it. And my mother read these mystery stories and I got bored by those eventually. And then I discovered real literature. I don't know at what age, but about twelve or thirteen. And so then I started reading good literature and there's nothing better than Russian literature, of course, in reading. Reading good literature

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  19. Well no, I'm hopeful, but I don't know if I'm hopeful in the long term. You know, if you say. Are we able to go for another couple thousand years? I'm not sure. Where we started the fact that we can do things that don't allow us to kind of keep going, or there can be, whether it ends up being a virus that we create or ends up being the equivalent of nuclear war or something else. It's not clear that we can control things well enough.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  20. I'm not sure. Yeah, maybe not. So that comes back to something you talked about earlier, which is the paradox, Fermi's paradox. Because you talked about having escape. And so the one number you don't know how to use in Fermi's calculation or Drake who's done it better. Is how long do civilizations last We've barely gotten to where we can communicate with electricity and magnetism and maybe we'll wipe ourselves out pretty soon.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  21. Gets really cold, yeah. But it's a station, and I think that's true. I mean, we haven't gone beyond that on the coast of Antarctica. They have greenhouses and they're self-sustaining in McMurdo Station, but we haven't really settled more than that kind of thing in Antarctica, which is a big thing. A country, you know, Big lot of big piece of land. So I don't. I can't envision kind of colonizing at people living so much as much as I can see.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  22. No, it's very small. There's only less than 100 people there even when I was there. There were about 50 or 60 there and in the winter there's less half of that their winner.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  23. So we had to stay a little while in Christ Church, but then we eventually went to McMurdo Station and then flew to the South Pole. The South Pole itself. Is when I was there, it was minus 51 degrees. That was summer. Zero humidity. And And it's about eleven thousand feet altitude. Because it's never warm enough for anything to melt, so it doesn't snow very much, but it's about 11,000 feet of snowpack. So you land in a place that's high altitude, cold as could be, and incredibly dry, which means you have a physical adjustment. The place itself is fantastic. They have this great station there. They do astronomy at the South Pole.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  24. Yeah, and so about halfway the pilot got on and said, sorry, this is a, they call it a boomerang flight. You know, boomerang goes out and goes back.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  25. The journey involves going, the South Pole Station is run in the US by the National Science Foundation. I went because I was on the National Science Board that runs the National Science Foundation. And so you get a VIP trip if you're healthy enough to the South Pole to see it, which I took. You fly from the US to Australia to Christ Church in southern Australia. And from there you fly to McMurdo Station, which is on the coast, and it's the station with about a thousand people right on the coast of Antarctica. It's about a seven or eight hour flight, and they can't predict the weather. So when I flew from Christ Church to McMurdo Station, they tell you in advance, you do it in a military. Aircraft, they tell you in advance that they can't predict whether they can land because they have to land on.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  26. Yeah, so, you know, this recent landing on Mars is pretty impressive. They have a little helicopter that can fly around. You can imagine. You can imagine in the not too distant future that you could have, I don't think civilizations colonizing I can envision, but I can envision something more like the South Pole. We haven't colonized Antarctica because it's all ice and cold and so forth. But we have So we have a station that's self sustaining at the South Pole. I've been there. It has really.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  27. Yeah I think You know, we're not, that's very futuristic. I think we're not that far from being able to make a one-way trip to Mars. That's then a question of. Whether people are willing to send somebody on a one way trip.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  28. It's a lack of predictive power. I mean, science has to connect to something where you make predictions is beautiful as it might be. So I don't think we're close. I think we need. Some experimental clues, it may be that information on something we don't understand presently at all, like dark energy or probably not dark matter, but dark energy or something might give us some ideas, but I don't think we're, I can't envision right now. In the short term, meaning, you know. Horizon that we can see how we're going to bring these two theories together.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  29. That's done mathematically by saying they curl up on each other on scales that are too small to affect anything here, but how you do that, and that's okay, that's an okay argument, but how you do that is not unique. So that means if I start with that theory and I go to our world here, I can't uniquely go to it. And if I can predict.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  30. I think So little progress has been made. Without more experimental clues, as I said, that were not the Just not able to Say that we're close without some clues. The best, the closest, most popular theory these days that might lead to that is called string theory. The problem with string theory is it works, it solves a lot of beautiful mathematical problems we have in physics. And it's very satisfying theoretically, but it has almost no predictive maybe no predictive ability because it is a theory that works in eleven dimensions. We live in a physical world of three space and one time dimension in order to make predictions in our world with string theory you have to somehow get rid of these other seven dimensions.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  31. Yeah. So we can't do that today. But when I think of black hole, it's a potential treasure chest of understanding the fundamental problems of physics and maybe can give us clues to how we bring to the embarrassment of having two theories of physics together. That's my own romantic idea

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  32. That's not the way it's supposed to be. We're trying to create a theory of physics, not two theories of physics. So we have an embarrassment that we have two different theories of physics. People have tried to make a unified theory, what they call a unified theory. You've heard those words for decades. They still haven't. That's been primarily done theoretically or people actively do that. My personal belief is that like much of physics, we need some clues. So we need some experimental evidence. So, where is there a place? If we go to Cern into those experiments, gravitational waves or general relativity don't matter. If we go to study our black holes, elementary particle physics doesn't matter. We're studying these huge objects. So where might we have a place where both phenomenon have to be satisfied? An example is black holes.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  33. So, like the early universe is an opportunity. In fact, we consider the early universe, we can learn things like I told you, and here again We have an embarrassing situation in physics. We have two wonderful theories of physics. One based on quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, and we can go to a big accelerator like CERN and smash particles together and almost explain anything that happens beautifully using quantum field theory and quantum mechanics. Then we have another theory of physics called general relativity, which is what we've been talking about most of the time, which is fantastic at describing things at high velocities, long distances, and so forth.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  34. So, uh, So, black holes are this mathematical phenomenon, but they come about in different ways. We have a huge black hole at the center of our galaxy and other galaxies. Those probably were made some other way, we don't know, when the galaxies themselves had to do with the formation of galaxies. We don't really know. So the fact that we use the word black hole, the origin of black holes might be quite different. Depending on how they happen, they just have to, in the end, have a gravitational field that will bend everything in.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  35. We think that if we see the distributions enough of them, the distributions of their masses, the distributions of how they're spinning, so we can actually measure when they're going around each other, whether they're spinning like this.

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  36. Let's not believe to be possible with the parent being a big star because big stars can only be so big? Or they are unstable. It's just the fact that they live in an environment that makes them unstable. So the fact that we see bigger ones, they may come from something else. It's possible that they were. Made in a different way by little ones eating each other up, or maybe they were made. Or maybe they came with the Big Bang, the what we call primordial, which means they're really different. They came from that. We don't know at this point. If they came with a Big Bang, then maybe they account for What we call dark matter, or some of it.

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  37. So that's the first explanation is that that's what they are. But what we see has some puzzles. This is kind of the way science works, I guess. We see heavier ones than up to we've seen one system that was one hundred forty times the mass of our own sun.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  38. And we don't know exactly what it, but it's usually thought that a star has to be at least three times as big as our sun. Make a black hole, but that's the physical way that you can make black holes. That's the first Explanation that one would give for what we see, but it's not necessarily true. We're not sure yet.

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  39. Basically, makes heat and light by fusion. Made up, and as it burns it burns up the hydrogen, and then the helium, and then slowly works its way up to the heavier and heavier elements that are in the star. And when it gets up to iron, the fusion process doesn't work anymore. And so the stars die. And that happens to stars, and then they do what's called a supernova. What happens then is that a star is a delicate balance between an outward pressure from fusion and light and burning, and an inward pressure of gravity trying to pull the masses together once it burns itself out it goes and it collapses and that's a supernova when it collapses all the mass that was there is in a very much smaller space and if a star if you do the calculations Is big enough that can create a strong enough gravitational field to make a black hole. Our son won't

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  40. So, black hole is first, it's a mathematical concept or a physical concept, and that is a region of space. So it's simply a region of space where the curvature of spacetime, meaning the gravitational field is so strong, That nothing get out. Including light. And as light gets bent in gravitational if the gravitation, if the space time is warped enough. And so even light gets bent around and stays in it. So that's the concept of a black hole. So it's not a And maybe you can make, maybe that's a concept that didn't say how they come about. There could be different ways they come about. The ones that we are seeing. We're not sure what we're trying to learn now is what they, but the general expectation is that they come, these black holes happen when a star dies. So, what does that mean that a star dies? What happens? A star like our sun.

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  41. Yeah, those parts are easier. They don't have to measure it as accurately at low frequencies. But they have a lot of tough engineering problems. In order to detect that the gravitational waves affect things, the sensors have to be what we call free masses, just like ours, are isolated from the Earth. They have to isolate it from the satellite. And that's a hard problem. They have to do that pretty not as well as we have to do it, but very well. And they've done a test mission and the engineering seems to be. Least in principle in hand? This will be in the 2030s. 2030?

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  42. Is that harder to engineer? It actually is a little different. It's three satellites separated by hundreds of thousands of kilometers. And they send a laser beam from one to the other, and if the triangle changes shape a little bit, they detect that from a passage.

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  43. It's completely analogous to what's been done in astronomy. So, astronomy from the time of Galileo was done with visible light The big advances in astronomy in the last 50 years are because we have instruments that look at the infrared, microwave, ultraviolet, and so forth. So looking at different wavelengths has been important. Basically going into space means that we'll look at instead of the audio band, which we look at, as we said on the Earth's surface, we'll look at lower frequencies. So it's completely complementary And it starts to be looking at different frequencies, just like we do with astronomy.

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  44. I think that we only see with electromagnetic waves four percent of what's out there. There must be We looked for things that we knew should be there. There should be I would be shocked if there wasn't physics objects, science, and with gravity that doesn't show up and everything we do with telescopes. So I think we're just Limited by not having powerful enough instruments yet to do this.

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  45. So, if you could study the early universe of gravitational waves, we can't do that yet, then it took 400 years to be able to do that with optical. But then you can really understand the very, maybe understand the very early universe. So in terms of Questions like Why we're here or what the Big Bang was We should in principle study that with gravitational waves. So to keep moving in this direction, it's a unique kind of way to understand our universe.

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  46. I think that In principle, if there were anti-neutron stars instead of just neutron stars, we would see. Different kind of signals, but it didn't get to that. We live in a universe that we've done enough looking because we don't see antiprobe matter, antiprotons anywhere, no matter what we look at, that it's all made out of matter. There is no antimatter except Waco in our laboratories. But when we go in our laboratories, we make as much antimatter as matter. So there's something about the early universe that made this asymmetry. So we can't even explain why we're here. That's what I meant. Physics wise, not in terms of how we evolved and all that kind of stuff. So there might be

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  47. I don't mean it philosophically. I mean it in terms of physics. Okay. Now what do I mean by that? If I go into my laboratory at CERN or somewhere and I collide particles together or put energy together, I make as much antimatter as matter. Antimatter then annihilates matter and makes energy. So in the early universe there you made somehow somehow a lot of matter and antimatter, but there was an asymmetry. Somehow there was more matter and antimatter than matter and antimatter annihilated each other, or at least that's what we think. And there was only matter left over and we live in a universe that we see this all matter. We don't have any idea we have an ideas, but we don't have any way to understand that at the present time with the physics that we know.

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  48. First, we don't understand. We use the word Big Bang. We don't understand the physics of what the Big Bang itself was. So I think my, and in the early stage, there were particles and there was a huge amount of gravity and mass being made. And so The big, so I'll say two things. One is how did it all start, how did it happen? And I'll give you at least one example that we don't understand, what we should understand. We don't know why we're here.

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  49. And so then you can start to hope to get to the important problems having to do with how the universe began, how it evolved, and so forth, which we really only study now with optical instruments or electromagnetic waves. And early in the universe, those were blocked because basically it wasn't transparent, so the photons couldn't get out when everything was too dense.

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  50. And so we can start to do what we call cosmology instead of astronomy or astrophysics. Cosmology is really the study of the evolution of the

    2021-08-23 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #213 – Barry Barish: Gravitational Waves and the Most Precise Device Ever Built · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source