YouSaid · the spoken record

Ben Van Leeuwen

lines on the record: 45
first: 2025-07-10
most recent: 2025-07-10
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“Where our entire innovation team will work out, and a tasting room and then in the front is an ice cream shop and everything separated by these cool retractable glass walls. So you see through the entire space. So all of the innovation now will happen at the point of sale where our guests come in, not just for show, but what we realized was not only getting immediate feedback, you know, making a new flavor and saying, let's put it out there and see what people think, but there's something about making the products where you're serving the products that Just for me, like cultivates better ideas, more excitement, brings out people's passion more. So I think we'll be even more successful at innovating out of that space.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“International right now, or not yet. We do have one location in Singapore. That was her little franchise test and what excites me most just from a this is what I enjoy doing this is fun standpoint is innovation. So I hope we'll have even more new flavors that are really popular. And more innovations even beyond flavors. So different kinds of product offerings in the scoop shops, always that incorporate ice cream, but we're opening, which I'm very excited for, the Van Luen Flavor Lab. But the flavor lab is an innovation kitchen.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Two, three years from now, we anticipate we'll be at around 200 stores. We hope there'll be a lot of international presence then too through”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, let's try to not do the obvious, right? The obvious would be like. A pumpkin ice cream colored with more turmeric and then a charcoal ice cream, which we've done, so this orange and black, the less obvious we would do like a butterfly pea flower ube, you know, really purple ice cream. Nice, swirled with a bitter dandelion green ice cream that we add more chlorophyll to make it bright green. So you have like green and purple. I love it, sort of, yeah.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And Oh my god. What am I immediately pitching to spirit airlines? And I would do something that would be artisanal and Middle American. So, like, smoked hay ice cream. Oh, yeah.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We got a ton of inbound. And we actually started partnering in a way with bigger brands. where they would pay us to do flavors. And, you know, it's kind of a win-win. I mean, we're still super selective. The ingredients had to make sense. Glad we did it. We'll continue to be open to crazy glass. Called Van Luen Vanilla, the best vanilla ice cream in the country. That made us really happy.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And we're really strict with our, we call them ingredient guardrails, but it was actually a clean label product, which I didn't know. I don't eat a lot of craft mac and cheese. But, you know, colored with turmeric and anado, salt, cultured milk powder, you know, cheese powder. And it was really good. Kind of weird tasting flavor, but still tasty. And we launched that flavor on our website. And within minutes, the website had crashed. And I think within 10 minutes, they'd all sold instantly. I think 12 billion medium impressions, whatever that means. Does it help the brand? I actually don't know.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We sort of fell into learning about how collaborations can help you build brand awareness. The first big collaboration we ever did was Kraft Mac and Cheese. It was right as the pandemic was ending and their marketing agency in New York City called us and I was talking to someone there and she said, do you want to do this? And actually she said, absolutely. I was like, this is going to be awesome. This is a no-brainer. I thought the juxtaposition would be really cool of this sort of classic American product with a smaller tisinal ice cream. Also... In a shocking way, right? If it was a classic American dessert mass market, it's too obvious, right? Yeah,”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“He had not a good moment. I don't know how we got here, but that's not going to work, right? We did not have any bank relationships. There was no way to borrow money. Somehow, through a little bit of Googling, you know, I found a nice 34% hard money loan proved in 24 hours. You know, money was in the bank by Christmas. And it saved the day. But yeah, it was super stressful. But even then, because Before that, maybe a month or two before that, we had turned down an offer to sell 15% of the business for $250,000. I was not like capital market savvy then, but I was still like, yeah, I don't like that. That doesn't seem like a good idea. So borrowing this money that I knew I could pay back in a year and a half, this is a lot cheaper.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Never a moment were we thought we wouldn't make it just because I'm really optimistic and I knew we could, but plenty of tough moments, you know, where we are about to run out of money. I mean, I celebrate Christmas and Hanukkah. But a week before Christmas, maybe, gosh, probably only like 10 years ago, there was no finance team. I did the books. And I said, wait a minute, we're going to be negative $200,000 in a week. And I'm like, no.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Who haven't been to this category? Fulfillment means just moving the product around. Trade spend, which is not unique to ice cream, but ice cream is really competitive. Who has all of the market share? You know, the Ben and Jerry is the Hagenda Silenti, and they are, of course, as efficient as you can possibly be from a fulfillment standpoint, from a trade spend standpoint, and from a cog standpoint, right? They're manufacturing as efficiently as possible. So that makes the CPG business really just a game of scale”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Not surprising to anyone with any literacy around selling frozen CPG products. You know, the margins are absolutely razor thin.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Never feels like we took a leap, actually. I mean, it feels like we're taking a leap this year, going from 70 to 105 stores in a single year. Until this year, it was kind of slow and steady. Wholesale, we did not plan on going into, but our first day in business in New York City, somebody from Whole Foods approached the truck and asked us if we did wholesale. And what we did early on, and we still do it to this extent, is, you know, we say yes to everything. You know, now it's we say yes to every meeting that might sound interesting. You never know what's going to come of it. So we said yes to wholesale, but yeah, to what you just pointed out, wholesale is a much harder business if we didn't have the brick and mortar. I don't know where we'd be because that has subsidized the wholesale business many, many years. Just looking at my wholesale P&L today, which is.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Wanted to stay in control. We didn't want to sell equity. I think the other part is we knew we weren't good enough yet to really scale. We're pretty good, right? But had we scaled then, you know, had in year three someone said, here's five million bucks, you know, which would have been enough to open 10, 15 stores, those stores would not be the way we want them to be now. Right.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Is different about it. There's just something different about brick and mortar. I think it looms in the consciousness of the consumer in a bigger way.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This was Greenpoint, Brooklyn, 14 years ago. Okay. So not nearly as affluent or even residentially dense as it is now. In that store in three hours had already done the revenue that our best truck location would do an entire day. Why?”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. To us, wow, this is much bigger than a truck, bigger than the 30 square feet within three hours. We said we're never building another truck.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We loved the truck model. You could get a truck going for $60,000. There was no rent. You could put it wherever you want. As I'm saying this, why would you ever do brick and mortar, right? Trucks sound so much better. You do brick and mortar because they do a lot more revenue and they're a lot easier to operate. And somehow we got this store open, which was one block from where we lived. That's amazing. like $22,000. It was 96 square feet. It was a very small store.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So in 2025, we started with 70 corporate-owned scoop shops. We'll open 35 this year. So we'll actually grow 50% on our scoop shop footprint this year. Wholesale is in 15,000 doors with over 50 skews by July we'll hit about 2,000 total team members most at the”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“How did we sort that out? Again, I don't remember the hard stuff. We kind of all did everything early on. I always felt kind of silly saying CEO when we were like a little business with a few trucks. I started calling myself the CEO and I don't know when we hit like a few hundred employees. Before that, there were no titles. We're running the business, we're the founders. As we've grown, the responsibilities are delineated. With that said, it's pretty fluid. I mean, we're growing at 30 to 40 percent a year, so nothing stays the same. The challenges change every year.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Particularly with Peter and I are over. I don't like the tone that you took in that email. And it's like, you know, we're really not fighting over the big stuff.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Zero concern. Wow. I do hear about the stories of founder strife. Working with my brother, it's not always easy. With all that said, The three of us are so aligned in our work ethic and knowing that we're never going anywhere. Not because it's easy, right? You know, there's days where I'm like, is this worth it? Like, is it worth it trying to build 200 ice cream stores in the next two and a half years? But with that said, we're completely similar in our alignment on wanting to grow in our work ethic. I imagine that's what would make it hard, you know, if one founder said, you know, I'm going to take six months off and travel the world, which is awesome. Nothing wrong with that. Sure. But I think we're fortunate that there we're completely aligned. So there's never been a question of, is this person working hard? Does this person want to grow it in this way? I mean, the problems I have with, you know, co-founders being my brother-in-law are that because we're so close, there's no filter, right? Generally, the fights.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, it wasn't hard at all. It was effortless. I mean, we were very young when we got married. Laura's from Australia, but we wanted to continue running the business together. We were really excited about it. And we just continued being great friends and doing things together. Laura and her partner, Greg, were like my family have a four-year-old. I'm super close with her. I mean, we're best friends, but also like family.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That became the location for, I think, our first three or four years. It was Green and Prince every day from 10 a.m. till 5 p.m. 6 p.m. And then Soho would kind of die because it was mostly retail driven. Then we would drive up to university in 12th Street, university in 12th or 11th in Greenwich Village and stay there till midnight.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That was day one, but it worked, I think, because of the distinctness of the truck. And then people were happy to have a product, I think, that was so clean label, not because the label red clean, but because I really still believe like the best ice cream is made with just milk cream sugar eggs and a little bit of salt, but nothing else.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Packing location upstate every week we're going to try to get the permit, but then the person doesn't show up. So it's really discouraging. And then finally after six weeks of doing this, it's late June. It's almost July. So we like missed those great spring months. You know, you have four months of really, really good sales. And then finally, I think it was June 21st, we get our permit. And we are so excited. So we get the permit on this first truck. And we parked on the corner of Green and Prince and Soho. And by the time we opened the window, there was like a line of 15 people. The truck looked really nice. It had this beautiful solid butcher block counter. So it had a homeier feel than most food trucks. And we were serving 10 flavors of ice cream. So Hudson Valley Red Currant, Sicilian pistachio, a really good Michelle Clizelle chocolate.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Where were you in your product development incredibly extensive and exhaustive recipe testing? So we tested, for example, over 50 different chocolate recipes with 15 different kinds of chocolate, different levels of everyone. We nerd it down to 10. So I think we had 10 chocolates that we loved. We had 10 vanillas. We had five mint chips. We had seven gingers. Probably 100 flavors. And we invited 50 people over to our apartment. This is the greatest party ever. And we had everybody fill out surveys. What do you like? What do you like? What do you like? So we did really, really rigorous market testing for no money. Van Luen were to attempt to do that now in a”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Year manufacturing in a co-packer in upstate New York because we didn't have any money to buy these hundreds of thousands of dollars.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's a weird phenomenon. I think part of it is age when you're that young, you know, there's a different kind of energy. Part of it is an age, but it's just the hunger and the pressure to have to do it. But I mean, what we accomplish with that, like the website we built, the graphic design we did, the marketing, the product development, I'm struck by how much we could do with so little. But I think this phenomenon, you know, you see it in business. This is why the Unilever's, the Nestle's, cannot do what we did, you know, cannot start it even with all of the resources in the world. Like when you get big, your brain changes. You become good at running big organizations, but harder at starting something in a scrappy way.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And one was $2,500, one was $5,000. We found someone in Astoria Queens to retrofit them into ice cream trucks. All the credit cards were maxed out, everything. Day one, we probably had, you know, $500 in our bank accounts collectively. What I find really striking about what we're able to do is $60,000 18 years ago is I have so much more experience now. I know so much more about business. I am 50 times more sophisticated in every business department. Yet I don't think I could do half of what I did then with 60,000 with even half a million dollars today. Why is that?”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It was her and I, my brother Peter, and our friend, one of my best friends, Ben Colombo, all living this apartment on Driggs Avenue and McGuinness in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. So I got $2,500 here, $5,000 here, $15 from a college professor, $15,000 from one of Laura's best friends from Australia. My dad put in 25. So we cobbled together only $60,000. So we tried to raise $250. We only raised $60. And that was enough not to buy a new truck because just the new truck before you turned it into an ice cream truck would have been $70,000. We bought two used post office trucks on eBay. One was five trucks on eBay. You bought one on eBay. We bought them on eBay. It was click, click, deliver it here. They arrive on a truck.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's funny. I have such a way of not remembering anything that I love. It's good to have a short memory. I mean, I was annoyed by it and disappointed, but I wasn't discouraged. I was like, I'm hardworking. I have a good palate. I know I'm going to be able to sell ice swim off a truck and make money. You know, I know I'll be able to pay everyone back. So I just kept going, kept going. And at this really beautiful business plan, it was 60 pages. And at this time, I lived in Greenpoint with Laura O'Neill, who at that time we were in a relationship. Now we're just co-founders and best friends on Earth.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“For some reason, we came up with a quarter million as the number be enough to buy a brand new Chevrolet truck. pay a lot to turn it into an ice cream truck probably have a hundred thousand bucks on the balance sheet to get us through the first year or two if we weren't making money. We set out to try to raise money, and everybody said no. What”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And then once we had more confidence that we could do it, I said, okay, we better figure out how to make the ice cream. I had Thomas Keller's Bouchon cookbook. There was a recipe for cremanglace which you can turn into vanilla ice cream in there. And I made that and had a lot of cream and a lot of eggs. And what was really exciting about making that and tasting, we said, whoa, this is the best vanilla ice cream I've ever had. And it was really easy to make. All it has is cream, eggs, sugar, milk, a little bit of sea salt and whole vanilla beans. Okay. And you put in the freezer and it stays good for months or years. So we're like, whoa, you can make the best ice cream ever. And it's completely preservable. You don't need to add any weird stuff”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I didn't really think it through because I didn't have great grades. I'd done no internships. So I said, Jenny, can you help me get a job like one of the ones you had? And she's like, no, I can try, but it doesn't work that way. And after meeting her one day in the city, I saw Mr. Softy truck. I didn't have an idea in that moment. I made a decision in that moment. So that's where the decision comes in. I didn't say, oh, I have an idea to start an ice cream company. I said, oh, that's what I'm going to do. It was so clear and I was so excited. I saw this Mr. Softie truck. And by the way, don't think this was a great idea. But I said, I'm going to get an ice cream truck and I'm going to learn how to make ice cream. And I'm going to find the best ingredients I can.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, he came back to the States. I went to college. I finished college. I really looked up to my sister. After college, she worked at Goldman Sachs, then she worked at Newberger Berman. Then she started her own private wealth management firm. I looked up to Jenny because she was really responsible and she made a good living. And I said, I want to do that.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, you care about your olive oil and your cheese and the quality of your pasta. And that without even realizing it, then I was like, it was so exciting to me that food, this thing you do three times a day, which is something I was excited about, is normal to be excited about in other places and to care about and to put a lot of time into value in a really high way because I valued a lot. I mean, my food experiences every day. It's like, you know, some of the most important parts of my day is eating and what am I going to eat? So I learned a lot about that there.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“remember going to the first grocery store that I've ever been to in Italy and it wasn't a fancy grocery store they don't really have fancy grocery stores there yet every grocery store is almost as fancy as the fanciest store in America because I always say there's no foodies in Italy it's just Italy”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It was formative in like learning about food and learning about really good ingredients, but more than that, why is Van Luen going to open its hundredth store this year? Not because we're brilliant, not because we came up with an incredibly novel product. It's really good ice cream. It's the way any good, well-trained pastry chef would make ice cream. But Van Luen's going to open their hundred store this year, and we're going to be the almost biggest artisanal ice cream company in the US, the biggest consumer market on Earth. simply because we decided to do it.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I didn't want to go alone. Like, I'm really a social person. I don't do well on my own. But all of my friends were like, no, no, Ben, we can't do that. You know, it's going to look so bad on our resumes to take a year off college. And I was like, but I want to do it. So I think the lesson there was like go with what attracts you. I guarantee you if I didn't go on that trip, I wouldn't have started an ice cream company.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Those were my favorites. Yeah, really good. I did that for two summers after the second summer of doing that, I decided I didn't want to go back to college. I had saved up enough money from driving that truck to go backpacking throughout Europe and Southeast Asia. But that was a very formative experience in the decision to do that kind of changed the course of my entire life because it wasn't a rational decision, like especially having grown up in Greenwich, Connecticut, but that path there, at least the way I saw it, was you go to the best college you can, you get the best grades you can, and you hopefully get a job in finance, right? I never had great grades. Maybe 2.8, 2.9 GPA. So when I decided to go travel, you know, it was sort of the opposite of that path. And I wanted friends to come along with me.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Entrepreneurial drive, I think it's in my blood. My dad has been a serial entrepreneur. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Since he was in high school. So, yeah, I think it's part of my DNA. But Van Lu and Ice Cream actually came from my first summer job before college. That was the impetus. I drove a good humor ice cream truck where I grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut, and I loved it. I loved the hospitality aspect interacting with people. The product itself was pre-packaged. strawberry shortcake bars, which actually Van Lewen makes a Van Lewen version of that now, which is really good.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In 2025, we started with 70 corporate-owned scoop shops. We'll actually grow 50% on our scoop shop footprint this year. Wholesale is in 15,000 doors. By July, we'll hit about 2,000 total team members. So growing rapidly.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Bought two used post office trucks on eBay. We found someone to retrofit them into ice cream trucks, you know, all the credit cards were maxed out. On day one, we probably had $500 in our pancake accounts collectively.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“didn't really think it through Because I didn't have great grades. I had done no internships. I really looked up to my sister after college. She worked at Goldman Sachs. So I said, Jenny, can you help me get a job? Like one of the ones you had? And she's like, no, I can try, but it doesn't work that way.”
2025-07-10 · Masters of Scale · How a summer job grew into an ice cream empire, with CEO Ben Van Leeuwen · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT