YouSaid · the spoken record

Benjamin Friedman

lines on the record: 76
first: 2021-01-27
most recent: 2021-01-27
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“And of course, when you take over other people's countries, that's not good for the people who were there before you got there. So that's pretty easy to see. But I don't think of that as much of a feature of modern economic growth. I don't see who's being exploited in modern economic growth.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I guess what you're really asking is whether colonization and imperial expansion is a necessary feature of economic growth. I think it's hard to know because so much of the colonization to which you're referring was in the pre-modern period. We haven't in recent years seen very many of the major economic powers go off and take over other people's lands the way people did think of the British in Australia think of Europeans in South America think of British and French and Spanish in North America that ultimately got sorted out in the British favor. But it's true that in these pre-modern eras, there was a lot of colonial expansion. There was a lot of taking over of other people's countries.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We haven't seen that kind of economic growth except under market oriented economies. And therefore, what's true of societies that experience economic growth by and large turns out to be a statement about market-oriented economies as well.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't think so. I don't think there's a connection. We can certainly point to successful market-oriented societies that have had their share of religious prejudice, whether it's against Jews or Roman Catholics today, whether it's against Muslims in various Western countries. But I don't see any connection. In fact, I would argue the opposite. I would argue that what makes room for these people to come to societies where they are not indigenous and to do well and to do well in ways that integrate them in the society is precisely the feature of economic growth. Now, that's an answer about economic growth, not about capitalism versus communism versus something else, but the historical fact is that”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't know. That's a very interesting question. Mormons have been very successful economically in the United States. And the history of the Mormon Church, you know, only goes back to the first half of the 19th century. Now, instead of Judaism and Christianity and Islam, we're now not talking about something that goes back thousands of years. We're talking about something that goes back not even 200 years. And so it ought to be possible to for people who are knowledgeable about Mormonism to have a lot to say about it, but it is certainly true that in our American society, Mormons have been extremely successful economically.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Originates in the Hebrew Bible and was taken up by the early Christian thinkers as well. Many historians of the economic development point to the movement away from the ban on lending at interest under Luther and then especially under Calvin as the key step that freed Western society to move toward a more financially based and therefore expansive economic posture. And that's been blocked in the Islamic world by the strictures on banking and lending. I think there's something to both of these views, but they're very different.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There are two points of view that I think are probably both right. One is that somewhere along the way, Islam took a very interesting turn that moved those societies from being at the very forefront, which they were, of scientific advance and cultural height, to a more stagnant backward looking orientation to Murkuran's book, I think, is the key one on that. But many other people, my colleague Noah Feldman at Harvard have viewed all this as well. The second view is that the Islamic view of lending is particularly inimical to economic development. Now, this is a view in which one doesn't lend at interest, which”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That those are the predominant ones. You know, if we had been having this conversation, say, 20 years ago, we might have had a different view. 20 years ago, we might have pointed to some of these data from Freedom House and other institutions and said, look, it started in the West and it's spreading everywhere. Well, here we are. Democracy seems to be on the retreat at the moment, but I'm optimistic that that trend will turn around too.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I would say this is not unique to Christianity. Remember the foundational Jewish tradition or myth depending on how you want to look at it, has to do with emergence from slavery and oppression. And so the idea that might necessarily make right is not unique to Christianity. I don't know whether political systems are driven by the fact that we in the West have a kind of Judeo-Christian culture. We're going to find out over time, but it does seem to be the case at least so far, what's certainly the case historically is that modern liberal with a small L democracy with a small D originated in Protestant countries. And I think what's clear so far is”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Most of the world for the next 500 years. Which one would it be? David's argument was that you would probably have predicted China. And then the question was, well, why not? And one part of his answer was that with its geography,”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Cultural influences. And Lendis didn't point so much to the church, but Lendis pointed to geography, what was very interesting in the beginning of his book was his story about the geography of Western Europe compared to the geography of China. He raised the following question. Suppose in say some period like what you're talking about, say 1400, 1500, something like that. Somebody had asked you, somebody had come along and said, Tyler, tell me which part, they would have had to explain to you what an industrial revolution was. And then somebody had said, okay, Tyler, now that I've explained it to you, I'm going to tell you that one region of the world is going to experience an industrial revolution. And on the strength of that is going to dominate.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It sounds plausible. I have to confess I haven't read Joe's book, and I'm embarrassed, but I haven't read it. In our department, we had a department-wide seminar with Joe as a speaker, and unfortunately, I had another commitment and couldn't hear him. And I'm very sorry about that. But I'm sympathetic to the idea. Another truly great book that I would point to along those lines is by my late colleague David Landis, who wrote about the cultural influence on the development of markets, capitalism, economic growth, Landis's book was very aptly titled, The Wealth and Poverty of Nations. The issue is why do some countries, some societies flourish economically and others don't. And long before it was fashionable, Landis pointed to”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Was the only thing going on there, and I don't want to suggest that in the same way I don't want to suggest that the religious influence is the only thing that was driving our Western economics at its creation. But I think these are both very important.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, again, in my mind, the number one, when you point to a line, the number one thing you're talking with dividing the east and the west, the number one thing you're talking about is the place where the Soviet Union was dominant and not. But I understand that there are all sorts of cultural features. Look at a country like Poland, for example. Poland never had the experience of democracy the way the West did. Poland was a country that got partitioned three times in the course of the last few hundred years. Look at a country like Hungary. Hungary was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Look at where else the Czechs, I think, are doing better. The Czechs at least come out of a quasi-democratic experience. But I certainly don't want to suggest that the Soviet”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“not you and I in our lifetimes but our children would see them moving beyond their current authoritarian difficulties but maybe not maybe there are forces that are deeper than just their experience under Soviet communism.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't know, but I think I would point to the century or so of dominance under Soviet communism as the primary cause. I mean, look, for example, at the difference in attitudes between people who are living in West Germany and the former East Germany. Look, these were the same groups of folks from years ago, but the East Germans lived under half a century of dominance by the Soviet Union in a communist system. I think that you can't get away from the fact that that was very important. And the good news would be that a half a century is while not a short period of time, is nonetheless temporary, and I would say the good news would be going forward in time. We would see them maybe”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Of Holland, I think of Britain. That's where the commercial economy developed and that's where the great debate over the not just the advantages, but the morals of a commercial economy came to the fore. And it was people like Smith and Hume in the mid to latter part of the 18th century who finally had a real story about why market economies work and why market economies should not be thought of as inimical to our morals.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“During the course of the 16th and then especially the 17th and on into the 18th centuries, in Northern Europe there was a transformation toward what we would today call a commercial economy, a competitive economy, a financial economy, a monetized economy that created something very different from what they had in Italy and Spain context of earlier centuries that you describe. I mean, yes, I'm aware that there were these trade fairs. Yes, I'm aware that the Italians led the way in banking. I don't think that's the same thing. I think these were not really market economies in the way that we know today. For that matter, 17th century Britain wasn't either, but it was an awful lot closer. I think it was in northern Europe, I think.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Religious conservatism and economic conservatism came together at mid 20th century America, and I think they've been together ever since.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Political democracy, but it was also the enemy of Western-style market capitalism. And, importantly, for purposes of this line of argument, it was the enemy of Western-style religion. And I think the religious conservatives and the economic conservatives realize that they had an enemy in common and they took the threat seriously and this led them to come together. And the person I think who played the greatest role in bringing them together was Bill Buckley. Now, Buckley was not a theologian, but he was a religious man. By coincidence, he was a Roman Catholic. He wasn't a Protestant. But I think under the leadership of Buckley and also ministers like I think of Billy Graham as being very active in this process, but others too,”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Think there's a part of the story that you're missing, and that has to do with the coming together at mid-20th century in America of religious conservatism and economic conservatism. And I think the catalyst that brought them together was the existential fear of world communism. Here we are, call it 70 years later, and it's difficult to put ourselves back in the shoes of Americans in the 1950s. But that was a real fear. And communism, at least as advocated at that time, had a unique feature of being simultaneously the enemy, the existential enemy of lots of things that we hold dear. It was the enemy of Western style.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Within the about religion theology, within the English-speaking Protestant world in which people like Adam Smith and David Hume lived. And I think that influence is still with us today. So no, it's not at all an accident that the country on the planet where we probably have the greatest commitment to market competition as the driver of economics is precisely, as you say, an outlier in terms of commitment to religion and religious activities.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, I think they certainly are related to start your absolutely right compared to other high-income countries. Americans are more inclined to say they believe in religious doctrines, or Americans are much more likely to participate in religious activities going to church, for example. And I think this is not at all unrelated to the fact that Americans have a deeper and more active commitment to the ideas of market companion. And it goes back to the idea, question that I was raising a minute ago, of where do our ideas of market competition come from in the first place. What I suggest in my book is that we got those ideas 200, 300 years ago from what were then new and hotly contended.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't think it particularly, put it this way, the superstitious side of religion, I have to admit I'm uncomfortable with the way you describe that. There are many people who believe in what scientists would call supernatural phenomena. And I am aware that that's a part of religion, but I'm uncomfortable with describing that as superstitious. But knowing what you mean, I don't think that it has a lot to do with our economic views. Certainly it's certainly not a part of my argument about the role of religion in standing behind many of our economic ideas.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Competition and the role of capitalism in our economy because there are religious roots behind the ideas that gave us those. I think that's important.”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I have no idea why so many Americans believe in ghosts to be honest with you, but I do have views about why Americans have such strong views about the way we should run our economy and what that means for our economic future counter to most people who think of our modern economics as a secular product of the Enlightenment. I think that there are very deep intellectual roots behind the creation of modern Western economics. And I think those roots have resonances that are still with us today. There are many people who complain that economic is a form of religion. And I think in a deeper sense, there's something to the idea. I think we believe, when I say we, I'm picking up on your question about Americans. We believe what we believe about markets and the role of”
2021-01-27 · Conversations with Tyler · Benjamin Friedman on the Origins of Economic Belief · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source