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BJ Fogg

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2020-06-23
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2020-06-23
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  1. “High. In other words, it has to be easy to do. Otherwise, you won't do it. If motivation is low and it's hard, you don't do it. But if you can take that other teammate ability and make it really strong, make it really easy to do, then you do it reliably. That insight is what the tiny habits method is based on. Now let's change the situation. Let's say your motivation is really high. Well, that means you can do easy or hard things.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  2. “Well, one of the ways is, which I sow, I'm so excited about this and have been for a decade. So my motivation about this hasn't subsided is how motivation interacts with ability. And so again, my behavior model is behavior happens when these three things come together at the same moment. Motivation, ability, and prompt. And motivation and ability, those two components have a relationship. If you look at the graphical version of my behavior model, there's a curved line. And that curved line shows the relationship. And essentially, and it took me, Jane, I'm embarrassed to admit eight years to find the right word to describe the relationship. But here's the word. It's a compensatory relationship. So they can compensate for each other. So if motivation is low for any given behavior, then the ability must be”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  3. “Preparation software. There's a season for that. So the weight goes up and it goes down. And that's how I think about contextual motivation. I have other ways of thinking about motivation, but those are two. One is analytical and one is more of a design framework.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  4. “And fast forward a year from now, those probably won't be top of the news and people will be less motivated around those things. So that third type of motivation is a contextual one. And it has to do with a concept that I call the motivation wave. So things will happen around us that will increase our motivation to do stuff. But the reason that I along with colleagues thank you David Sobel for naming this for me. Call it a wave is it will go up, but then it's going to come down. And if you need people to do hard things, you've got to prompt them when there's a motivation wave, not after the wave has subsided. So if you need people to buy candy canes, well, ask them to buy candy canes in early December or come December 26th. They're going to be a lot less motivated by candy canes. If you want people to buy your tax.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  5. “But yes, you can do that. I don't think it's the best way to design for motivation, but it's out there. It's an option. So that's bucket number two. Number three again has to do with the context of the environment. And in that case, the motivation comes from what's going on around you. So if you're in the midst of a global pandemic, well, there's lots of motivation to do certain behaviors if you are going to a nightclub, what happens in the nightclub motivates you to do other things. So it's really that motivation is a function of what our context, what surrounds us, including our perception of what surrounds us, and that kind of motivation tends to be fleeting because we move from context to context, environment to environment. And in one context, we might be motivated to do X. And in a different one, we might be motivated to do Y or things will change over time. Things that are happening in the news, oh my gosh, we're really concerned about stocks. We're really concerned about coronavirus.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  6. “And social acceptance and social rejection. That's, I think, quite comprehensive. But from a design perspective, like if you had to find a way, let's say you wanted people to drink more filtered water, for example. And if you wanted to get people to do that, you would say, well, people have to have some motivation to do this, to drink this kind of water. So what are our options? Number one, in the PAC person model, you align it with what the person already wants to do. So with an ongoing aspiration, it might be they want to be healthier. It might be they want to avoid contaminants. It might be that they want to stop drinking soda. Any of those, you could align with bam, now drink this filtered water. It will help you be healthier and so on. So you look at what do people already want to do? That's one option. The next one is to, and the next one I don't love, it has to do with the action. You attach some sort of benefit or punishment to the action. Some people call this carrot or stick.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  7. “One is pleasure and pain. So it's what you're sensing in the moment. And that's a core motivator for everybody. Pleasure and pain, two things. The next has to do with anticipation. It's hope and fear. And it's the idea that if I do X, Y will happen. And if Y is a good thing, like, oh, if I take vitamin C, I won't get sick. That's hope. Whereas fear is, oh, if I touch this elevator button and get a virus, I'll get sick. And that's fear. So that's two sides of the same coin. And then the third core motivator is a social one, which has to do with wanting to belong or the fear of being rejected. And that, I think, is a good analytical framework, but it's not that useful for design. If you wanted to map out what motivates human beings, well, pleasure, pain, hope and fear.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  8. “And my first publication on this, I had 35 different behavior types. I simplified it since then to 15. And people can find this at behaviorgrid.org. There's 15 ways behaviors can change. And that's nice. You know, it's like, oh, here's where habit is in this grid. There's one of the 15. Here's where stopping habit lives. Here's where one-time behavior is, a new behavior is. There's 15 ways. Now, that's a nice framework, but you can't use it for design very well. It's an analytical tool. So when it comes to motivation, boom, I've got one that's more about analysis and then the PAC person that's more about design. The analytical framework I have for motivation, as I say, there are three core motivators.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  9. “The way I break motivation down, I have two models for this. One is an analytical model and one's a design model. And let me parse out the difference there. When you see a model of any type, especially when it comes to social science or psychology, some models can be used for analysis, a lens through which you look at something and understand it better. And some models can be used for design. The PAC person model that I talked about ability is like skill up the person, change the environment, or scale the behavior back. That is a model that can be used for design because you can walk through those steps and then design solutions. Then there are other models, including ones I've created that are only good for analysis. So I've mapped out the different ways behaviors can change. Think of that as like the periodic table of elements, but for behaviors.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  10. “Well, there's different frameworks and definitions of motivation. And when I talk about motivation, it pretty much maps how everyday people, at least in the Western culture I live in, talk about it. It's a drive to do something or an aspiration in the moment. In my work, looking at habits and behavior change, yes, motivation is one of the three components of any behavior. Motivation, ability, and prompt. And if there's no motivation, you will not do the behavior. by definition. And we have everyday experiences that show that. If there's a behavior you don't want to do, even if it's super easy, you won't do it even when prompted.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  11. “Maybe. See, this is why it's a hard question. Maybe, yes. You know, this is a model, you know. And then when it gets to context, it's such a hard thing to feel like I solved the puzzle elegantly for it. So that is a kind of project that's in the back of my mind. And if there is a solve, maybe I'll stumble across it someday or maybe somebody's already solved it and that would be awesome. There could be a map that's given to me of the hiking trails near where I live in South Maui and then just looking at that map will go, oh I'm thinking differently now about my environment. Oh, I now know how to go hiking more easily. So it didn't actually maybe motivate me to hike, but it would help me do what I already want to do. And that's a really important concept. And it helped me by seeing possibilities, by seeing how to go hiking.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  12. “Now I'm perceiving what's around me differently. So it's not that the actual landscape has changed, but my perception of the landscape has changed. And right now, if we want to talk about coronavirus issues, people are perceiving people around them differently. So it's not like our neighbors have changed. It's not like that doorknob or the elevator button has changed. But now we have a different perception about, oh my gosh, what is that doorknob mean? What does that elevator button mean in terms of contagion? So I do think, and this is why the question is such a good hard one. That's one way we can change the environment is change our perception of it.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  13. “You are asking me such a good hard question. I love this. I'm a person who creates models and frameworks and so on. And the one concept that I've not been able to nail is to do a theory or framework or model of environment, context, or environment. I'm using those as synonyms. It's hard. But you're right. There's the physical aspects of it. But then there's like these digital environments. What's on your screen and what's open and what's easily accessible and then environment and context can also be how you perceive the exact same landscape around you. So say I'm here in Maui and I'm like, oh, I could walk some places. I don't know where I'm walking. And then I see a map of trails nearby. And I look at the trails and I'm like, oh, just that insight that there are trails around me then changes, I believe, changes my context or my environment because”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  14. “Servings of healthy vegetables for dinner, you just prepare one or maybe even eat one bite. I mean, in tiny habits, you shrink it as tiny as you can go and still keep the behavior meaningful.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  15. “Like a CrossFit gym. Well, I changed my environment to make working out easier to do. And people can think of lots of examples of this. The third, and there's only three buckets here, is you take the behavior and you scale it back. So you take whatever action that is, such as, oh, I want to work out an hour a day and you scale it back to, well, maybe I'm just going to work out for four minutes. So you're actually changing the action to make it tinier. So those are the three buckets. You can change the person to make it easier to do by scaling them up. You can change the environment by giving people tools and resources or yourself, tools and resources. And the third approach, if you need this, you take it and you just scale the behavior back to be super tiny rather than paying all your bills. You just pay one rather than flussing all your teeth. You just flus one tooth rather than eating five.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  16. “There's a sequence in all of my work, it's all a system. There's a sequence in how you think can solve these problems. Number two has to do with redesigning the environment or the context to make it easier to do. And so you put tools or resources into somebody's context. Now notice this is different than skilling somebody up. You're not changing the person, you're changing their environment. Or if you're designing for your own behavior, you change your own environment. So you get the gear you need to wash the vegetables, the gear you need to chop things up and so on. tools and resources would also include checklists, recipes, how-to videos, anything that you'd put in your environment that would make it easier to including another person who walks you through the steps. That's bucket number two is can we redesign the environment or the context to make the behavior easier to do? California, one of my garages is converted to a gym.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  17. “I have a different model for that. I mean, I totally get that and I like that, but I have a different model of how to think about how to make something easier to do. And in my model, and I call it the PAC person model, there are three approaches. Number one is you train the person. So that person gets more capable. You skill them up. Now that doesn't always work because a lot of people don't want to be skilled up. They don't want to be trained. But you consider that option first. If we're trying to help people, say, cook more vegetables or eat more vegetables for dinner, well, train them, skill them up, teach them how to acquire them, how to cook them, and so on. So that's one option is you change the person, you make them more capable, and in that way the behavior becomes easier to do. Number two, and the next thing to consider.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  18. “Who are creating products and services to change behavior and health or financial stability or stress? I do teach them to explain to their colleagues information alone does not change behavior. And if people have like, oh, we're going to do this information campaign or we're going to educate people to push back on that and say, no, no, no, information alone is not reliable in changing behavior long term. However, if there's already budget for some sort of campaign or learning or whatever, then take that budget and use it to help people get really specific about their behaviors and explain how to. So rather than try to motivate people through some information campaign, match them with the best behaviors and then make those really easy to do. And then you're on your way.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  19. “Boom, that's good. Okay, so when we talk about information, that can be lots of things. But if it's information about here's the behavior to do and here's how you do it, then that is a great approach. But that's a specific kind of information. So specifying the behavior and making it easier for people to do. Now notice in those two things that maps to my behavior model, which goes like this, behavior happens when three things come together at the same moment. Motivation, ability, and prompt. So if you give information that specifies the behavior, well, that's the B and the behavior model. And then gives people more ability, then you've hit, I think, the most important things in changing behavior. Be specific and make it really easy to do. So when I teach my boot camps, and that's for industry, innovation,”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  20. “And let me drill down on where it doesn't work. If it's information about why you should do something in a domain we already understand pretty well, like nutrition or sleep or stress reduction. More information about why you should reduce your stress seems not to lead to lasting change. That's not a good equation. And then just statistics and things like that without any, and here's the key.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  21. “I couldn't get super enthusiastic about the overall idea of quantified self because I knew that just giving somebody data about their sleep or about how many calories or about whatever wasn't going to add up to be a thing that would create lasting change in most people's lives. Now, I imagine there are a few unusual people that all they need is data and everything else clicks together. Yeah. Now there is one qualification chain for this that where it does help information.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  22. “I know we've all thought that. We've all hoped that for a long time. And it is important and in tiny habits, I point this out and I've pointed it out for a while, that information alone does not reliably lead to sustained behavior change. Now, information can be part of the puzzle, but that alone doesn't seem to do the trick for most people. So seeing statistics, seeing data won't necessarily change somebody's behavior in the long term. And back in the day, when the quantified self-movement was more visible and buzzier and more exciting. That was one of the things. I mean, I really, really liked the people involved and I really liked to see technology be created to help people be healthier and more productive and happier and so on.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  23. “Very different. On the good news side of things is with my lab, my research lab at Stanford, we meet once a week, year-round, and we've long done that through video conferencing. It was on hangouts and then we shifted to Zoom a few years ago. So that doesn't change anything at all. It doesn't matter where I am, the lab and how we interact with that in Slack stays the same. One thing it has in common is I feel very at home when I'm on Stanford's campus and I feel very at home when I'm here in Maui or close to nature. And then there's other places where I just don't feel at home, like say I go to Chicago and I keynote at an event and I go to a hotel. And yeah, I'm there and event's nice, but I don't feel at home. And I really can't wait to leave and get back to, I guess, a place that's...”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  24. “And just not real relationships. If you couldn't help somebody financially, it just seems like they weren't interested in. So that, and the one day I was sitting in our home and it's in Hildsburg, California, and I looked around the living room at every single piece of every painting, every anything in the room had to do with nature. I had plants. I had rocks. I had feathers. The carpet was leaves. And I looked around and said, okay, BJ, this is Claire. You're kind of obsessed with nature. So for me, that's really important. And here in Maui, I surf every morning. I get in the ocean every day. And that's really important for me to start my day and also to end my day getting in the water just for me. I've just found that really, really helps. For me, it's really nature is the foundation of being happy and healthy. And frankly, my spiritualities.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  25. “Course, it's different for different people, but for me. Nature is a big piece of that for me. And I didn't realize this. I didn't realize the pattern, how important connecting to nature is for me to be healthy and happy. And it's different for different people. But yes, I taught a two classes. The only class I ever repeated at Stanford. I always teach a new class was on behavior design to help people connect to nature. But I didn't recognize how important that pattern was in my life. I'd moved out of Silicon Valley in about 2001 because I just felt like it was dehumanizing me. And so even though I still had teaching and research, Stanford, we kind of escaped about two hours north where we moved to live next to a river. And the whole reason we moved out was to be by the river and get out of what I felt like in Silicon Valley was just greed and exploitation.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  26. “Oh, well, it probably goes back to my childhood. I grew up in a culture that was all about changing your behavior, optimizing your life and habits to do and habits not to do. I was raised Mormon in California. And within that religion, you know, you can't smoke, you can't drink, and you're supposed to study the scriptures and pray and so on. So I think I grew up with a lot of attention around habits. And then later fast forward to being an adult, just really interested in helping people be happier and healthier. And I think that also got wired into me, whether it was that Mormon background or whether it's just born with that desire. And in studying human behavior and things came together, it's like, man, you know what? This thing about habits and creating habits can be way easier than people expect.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  27. “You make these small changes, and it changes how you think about yourself. It changes your self-talk, it changes your relationship with emotions. So you're more inclined to embrace positive emotions and not let the negative emotions get you down. In some ways, I'm getting chills because that is such, to me, that is just, I'm still fascinated with how that works.”

    2020-06-23 · The Knowledge Project with Shane Parrish · #86 BJ Fogg: The Science of Lasting Change · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT