YouSaid · the spoken record

Brendan Eich

lines on the record: 237
first: 2021-02-12
most recent: 2021-02-12
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Garbage collection, all that stuff. Garbage collection. Even the bitwise operators and the shift operators, including the unsigned right shift, which Java had because it didn't have unsigned integer types. It said if you want to do unsigned operations, use an operator. And that turned out to be important much later. I'll tell that story five times. But JavaScript inherited a set of operators, the expression grammar, the statement grammar up to a point from Java. But I wanted a functional language. I wanted scheme a little bit of scheme, even though it wasn't as clean as scheme.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Marketing didn't know, but management did like Rick Shellp of Engineering knew And we had a plan, even that was if you have this companion language, you're going to glue things together between Java and JavaScript, so you're going to have commerce in memory in the heap with data types. So, you're going to want some of the data types in Java to reflect in the JavaScript. You're going to want the primitive types that Java unfortunately separated from objects. So at least some of them number double, let's call it, in Java's terms, from the C term for double precision. Floating point or strings or Booleans and objects. And so right away, there was this constraint that looking like Java meant kind of a C curly brace syntax, but also some of the data types and objects.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I came into Netscape to work on the server side for a month, but I was thinking the whole time what should this language be like? Should it be easy to use? Might it syntax even be more like natural language, like hyper talk, which is Bill Atkinson's language in HyperCard? If you've ever used HyperCard on early Mac. And I thought Well, I'd like to do that, but my management is saying make it look like Java, which looks like C from a distance.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And I worked for a month on server team on what became HTTP 1.1. So I was actually, I had done protocol work at Silicon Graphics with Greg Chesson, former Bell Evs, grad student intern who knew all the Unix founders. And Greg was very interested in taking protocols to the next level with VLSI because he thought that CPUs wouldn't scale up. He was mistaken in that, unfortunately. Moore's law more than kept up. And you have gigabit Ethernet running with conventional processors. But I worked on protocols at SGI as well as Unix kernel hacking and NFS and things like that.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We saw Bill Joy and Mark Andrews and I, we saw the need for companion language, and Gleem and our I was to call it JavaScript, though I didn't like it. That was marketing's plan. Mark called it Mocha, which I liked. And Netscape Marketing, I think, didn't like that. So they said, oh, there's some trademark and some software somewhere that's uses Mocha, so we can't use that. And they tried LiveScript in August, and that didn't last. And then finally, we got the trademark license in December 1995. But the work I did... To prove that it could be done was important because I came in in April, and even then, Netscape was growing so fast that they couldn't find an open hiring requisition in the client team for me. So they hired me into the server team.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Became Visual Basic Script in IE3, but didn't take over and kill JavaScript, that you need two languages. One is for the component writers who are higher price and more expert, and the other is for scriptors, certified public accountants, designers, graphic designers with some programming inclination, anybody, amateurs, doesn't matter. There's much more demotic approach there for programming the components together, gluing them together.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They could have content partners. They have a lot of money, but it still wasn't to scale the web. It wasn't going to be compelling. And Gates realized this, and he turned the company on a dime, and they couldn't buy Netscape. Again, I'm not sure the timing, so they decided to copy it. And once we realized that everybody inside Netscape felt even more urgency and more frenetic mood. So my chance to do scheme disappeared when the Java deal started brewing. But there was still a chance to do a companion language to Java because Java was a compiled, is a compiled language. It's improved quite a lot since then too, but it was for sort of serious advanced programmers that cost a certain salary or hourly rate. And people observed Bill Joy observed. Andreessen and I observed that in a mature stack like Microsoft, you really benefit from having a scripting language like Visual Basic.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There. And I heard about this later. I heard they offered way too little money. And so, you know, Jim Barksdale and Jim Clark said, get out of here to pound sand. But then they realized, oh, this is going to hurt us because now they're going to copy us. It didn't happen right away. I'm not sure when Gates' internet title wave memo was written. That's the famous memo he wrote when Bill Gates realized that Microsoft was going down this old copy AOL path or copy CompuServe path a project called Blackbird presumably after the SR-71. I don't know. But they were going to make a dial-up service with a custom content language stack and custom rendering. It wasn't the web.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Come off to the coast. Have a lot of fun. Come on, do scheme the browser. But when I got there, there was no scheme in the browser because they'd started to deal with Sun Microsystems. And my best contact there was Bill Joy, who I admired as a Berkeley Unix founder and Sun founder. And Bill got the idea of making the browser programmable too. And so the main idea was to put the Java VM, which at that point was not really easy to embed, into Netscape, including the Netscape version on Windows that was still most popular, which was the 16-bit Windows 3.1, which was going away. Microsoft was coming out with Windows 95, and everyone was afraid they were going to do Internet Explorer, I guess, two at that point, three the next year. They already bought or invested in somehow spyglass, this other company that shot out from NCSA at the University of Illinois. And in fact, Microsoft had tried to buy Netscape in late 94 before I got.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, that's the thing. We did the deal with Sun. In fact, I was recruited to go do scheme in the browser. Remember guys stealing Gerald Tusman's beautiful Lisp variant. I was going to do it in the browser because my friend's MessGI thought, hey, we like scheme. You like Scheme. And I'm like, I hardly ever use Scheme. It's not really used in industry except in sort of silos. But I like it. Okay, I'll come do Scheme in the browser. I have a slide from my 2017 talk where I have Bruce Willis crawling through the duct and diehard.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The most dynamism you get was from a plugin, which there are a few of them then. Flash didn't exist at that point. It was, I think.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“HTML tables. That was new. Eric Bina did tables in SK 111. So when I got there, they were heading toward IPO. Clark wanted to IPO early. I think his instinct was right. And that kicked off the whole dot-com era, right? There was a recession in the US in 1991. You can see old law and order reruns where they talk about the recession, how hard it's hitting New Yorkers. And after that, Greenspan really goosed things at the Federal Reserve and technology had been sort of fermenting in a way that came together with the internet. And Netscape made it possible to do pets.com, to do eBay, to get people to recognize a URL on a billboard and then type it in when they get home. And that was huge. That was so fast moving a rocket that Mark and the engineering team there thought we need to make this a programmable browser, not just a document viewer, not just a video.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Knew they could, you know, it wasn't that, again, it's not like you're doing advanced scientific research that is changing the world. You're more like taking down the last iteration in the browser marked it, which had images and other affordances before you stopped working on it. And you're making Netscape the new thing that has images, plugins, which was the way to do video back in the day. It had something that's kind of died now for tiled windows called frames and frame sets. Oh, yeah.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The whole, I'm sort of describing worse as better in a frenetic way because it fit the model of Netscape. When it was known that Jim Clark and Mark and Vias were founding Netscape, and they did the first release in 1994, that browser took over from Mosaic. In fact, that's why Mozilla has called that. It's the mosaic killer. It's like the giant monster that kills Mosaic. It's awesome.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Or whatever. You have to kind of resign yourself to the reality of worse is better being enshrined in actual design points you might not like. And that happened with JavaScript. And I'm way over it, but it also, I think, was a huge advantage. It's why JavaScript has kind of swept a lot of programming domains. People will say, oh, it's not because of merit. Well, you're right, but we also improved it over time in the standards body. I spent 20 years doing that. And you don't get that choice. It's like, I'm not saying that that was the best language. I'm just saying that was the right time to do it. And I like to say the alternative was not to do it. I could have told Netscape, I can't do this. It's too rushed. And it would have been visual basic script.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Could say in almost any network system, like biological evolution, you see successful alleles sweet populations, and they don't always have, you know, they aren't free of flaws, heterozygous advantage, right? You can get both parents give you the gene variant and you get sickle cell anemia, right? But if one of them does, you're more resistant to malaria. And so this isn't a beautiful process except at large scale. And then you realize that because it moves fast and can adapt, it can win. People still struggle with this. I used to struggle with this because JavaScript was done in such a hurry and the force of web compatibility meant early mistakes couldn't be fixed. And even the standards process injected new mistakes, as it will, but often standards bodies go back and making compatible changes. You can't do that with the web. It's more like, again, like biology, you preserve what still works. You don't want to break ATP metabolism.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, no. I mean, he's the founder of Lucid, which is where Jamie Zewinski worked before Netscape. And Lucid was doing compilers and Lucid Emacs, which was a fork of Emacs, famously Jamie fighting against Richard Stallman. Stall Max. And so Richard Gabriel, you know, very, very brainy computer guy, but also a poet. But he wrote a nice essay that gets abused all the time. In fact, Jamie's put a kind of warning in front of his version of it on his site, JWC.org, called Worse is better. And this is about survival advantage of software in the networked world, in my opinion. It's about Unix. It started out being framed as Unix and Lisp, good news, bad news, because all the Lisp people, the MIT people were like, oh, you know, the crown jewel, right, scheme, this Faberge egg or Common Lisp, this giant cathedral. Of course we're going to win. This is civilization. And those farmers in New Jersey to borrow from the Sopranos.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And you know when he sent that Eric Bean had already written the code. And I talked to Tim Berners more recently just a few years ago and he was like, oh, we had another way of doing it. Yeah, it didn't work out because Mark shipped his in Mosaic. And this convinced me of several things. One, the internet meant there was a huge first mover advantage and being fast, getting on first mattered a lot. And so, you know, Richard Gabriel scheme and poetry fame has written about this, the famous tree. What's poetry?”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Multiple network stacks interoperating, but in the end it won. So that was the internet. And it was email and texty, and it was used, very texty. And then Tim Berners-Lee did his thing, but I don't think I was paying attention. And I think the date when he first did it or when he wrote the famous email has been pushed back to 89. But I noticed mosaic in 93 because one of the things that Mark Andreasen and Eric Bina did at NCSA was they innovated on the HTML early HTML standard. They in particular Mark sent this email saying, hey, everybody, we think you should be able to put an image in a page.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes. So when I was at Micro Unity still in'93, we saw a browser called Mosaic. And up till then, we'd used email and we'd used Usenet, the NNTP protocol. We'd use newsreaders. We used FTP. We used all these old internet protocols, all relying on the DNS and TCP and UDP for that matter. When I was at Silicon Graphics, we brought up the whole stack, right? We had to discover how to find the Ethernet addresses on your network and then find IP addresses for them, ARP protocol, all that stuff. And it was great because nobody knew in the 80s what was going to win. All the proprietary stacks like IBM, SNA, and DeckNet and all these other protocols were saying we're going to do it or it's going to be heterogeneous future. And instead, it was Berkeley Unix and the TCP IP stack that dated back to the ARPANET that won. And I think we knew it. We all knew it at SGI, but the salespeople didn't. And so they kept trying to get.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Do 10 things each one in 10 odds. It's going to be one in 10 billion, right? Multiplication principle. So, you know, Netscape was already a rocket, and I passed the chance to go there in 1994. I knew the founders because I worked at SGI Clark's company.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Which level of the software? It was like, we were writing GCC, we were writing C and C. Somebody I worked with there, really smart guy, hired from a sort of Wall Street hotshot programming consultancy did his own hardware design as well as software. We were working on how to make not only short vector units, but general bit shufflers and permuters so you could do things like crypto algorithms efficiently and you could do demodulation of the cable complex quadrature amplitude modulated signal. So you were basically taking A to D converters, dumping things in buffers, and then doing the rest in software, all the framing and the read-Solomon and Viterbi and all that error correction. So that was really great learning experience, but it was not going to work. It was doing too many risky things at once, right? If you, as Jim Clark said to me when I hopped to Netscape after three years at Micro Unity, he said, oh, yeah.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Five centimeters on a side, it was really hot, too, so I need a water cooler. A Craig Hiller, and then they shrunk it and they tried to do a home sort of media processor that was essentially a barrel processor, but you could think of trying to do all the things that we now see in modern architectures with short vector instructions and sort of wide instructions or multiple issue and doing a lot of the stuff in software because the second iteration, the set top box was really for avoiding the cost to the cable company of rolling the trucks out to replace your garbage general Atlantic set-top box with a slightly newer, less garbage E one. So if you could have software gradable set-top boxes, the cable companies thought they could save a lot of money and add features.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I was at Silicon Graphics after graduate school for seven years. And it got to be big and successful in divisionalized and political. And I thought kind of boring. And a friend who'd been there went to one of the last of the super companies, super startups in the early 90s. There were several, I suppose General Magic was a little after that or around the same time. But Micro Unity was that company that I went to. And it was because my friend Jeff Weinstein had gone there from Silicon Graphics. He recruited me. Micro Unity was doing everything. So this was like the ultimate sort of pretend grad school. It was doing a new fab, new semiclector process. It was doing new analog and digital circuits on the same very large but not wafer scale chip. Originally it was.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Not except for a spare of time. Like you said, I'm not using this kind of computer science in practice because almost everything now is engineering and finding ways to get computers to be more useful for people, which goes from design problems, which are really kind of an art. Like Knut said, anything you can't automate is an art. Well, we can have machine learning composed music, and it can imitate, you can train it, and it can sound kind of decent, but lacking. Jeanne Sequois. But user interface still, I think, requires human art.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's not that useful in practice, right? People are using it with sort of crypto analysis or asymptotic arguments about can we have a quantum resistant crypto algorithm, things like that, which may not be practical, right? If you follow Mikhail Diakinov or Gil Kali, there are big questions about how quantum computing will scale up, how practical it will be.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Policy tools, or they can become, like I said, one of a large family of alternate theories that could be as predictive, but nobody's doing the Winnowing out.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Those gentlemen are no longer with us, and I That's noticed. So, like I said, the real glory days of physics, the famous pictures from Germany before the Second World War were just a fantastic assembly of brains, you know, Schr ⁇ dinger and Einstein. Physics, I think, took a wrong turn that maybe all of, I would say Western science took in going for models over reality, right? You see this in all sorts of fields. Now we can build models that are very predictive and generative and then we build actual devices or semiconductors, things like that. That's good. I'm not dismissing that. We need good models. We need to experiment and prove them and test them. But the problem I've seen in physics, which you see certainly in economics, the dismal science, and you see, surprisingly in other so-called hard sciences, is models that don't really have to be tested against reality. They can instead become...”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, in fact, I'd say the problem is theory over experiment. I would say we need more Aristotle and less Plato. Mathematics is not all physical. There are lots of mathematics that cannot be realized as far as I know in this world. So to understand the world, you need to do experiments. You need to not just dream up inductive theories that could have lots of alternative theories competing with them with no way to decide between them except aesthetics, which is not a good guide in my opinion.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, I mean, I was one of three brothers who were all in the same grade. I have a twin. And a younger brother who skipped second grade and was with us the whole time after that. And he went on. He actually studied under Kip Thorne at Caltech. But he also didn't end up in software.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Risk one in some ways it dissolved into that you have both now you have these super scalar architectures where Intel has kept probably too much backward compatibility at the instruction level but that's just there's a front end that parses that into these you know these wide internal instructions so you know the very long instruction word research that was also interesting at the time kind of became the microarchitecture inside the backward compatible Intel but I picked a national semi chip and it never got made successfully it was full of bugs and I never could have brought it up but I went on out of physics after three years into math computer science and like I said I did it because I saw I was being sort of childlike and naive about physics and I thought meanwhile the valley is go-go for computers the Apple II right the PC the Intel 80 86 8088 based PC”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Which was hugely successful. I think in large part due to Anders Hellsberg, who then went to Microsoft and did C sharp and.NET with his team there and has done really well doing TypeScript, Type JavaScript. So yeah, there's a lineage here. But I was also interested in C in Unix by the time I was an undergrad because people were bringing Unix up on all sorts of hardware. I had some friends who were doing their own wire wrap computers, 820 maybe. And I was wire wrapping for my engineering course or something simpler, building a computer on a board. And I wanted to build a more ambitious one in Port Unix to it, but I picked the wrong processor. I picked the National Semiconductor NS 16032, which was this amazing CIS complex instructions that computer. And not the reduced instructions that computers that were just being condemned.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, it was in the Algul family, and Algol was, you know, the big successful language design and compiler project in the 60s. It had a successor called Algol 68, which is ambitious, but not as successful. But Pascal was kind of a wordy procedures and functions language. It distinguished between functions which return a value and procedures, which don't, which just compute. You could say that whole Agol family went into Ada. Pascal had a second life thanks to Borland with Turbo Pascal.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Kind of, and I know some people who are grad students under him and said he was torture the students with things like this custom email system that had 25 word limit. And things like that.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Procedural abstraction, Pascal, just what now would be considered old school, like structured programming from the 70s. Niklaus Wiert, the creator of Pascal, was a good writer and a good pedagogue, right? He always at ETH would do these courses where it's like build your own computer, build your own compiler, build your own operating systems.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was a little late for the, I think, the 20th century Golden Age. And I read a lot of science fiction. So I was like, yeah, it's on to hyperdrives and warp drives. And physics was not going to get there quickly. And I started hacking on computers while I was studying physics as an undergraduate at Santa Clara University. And I don't know. But we were using Pascal, and I got one of the first portable C compilers ports to the DEC mini computers we were using. And I fell in love with programming just based on...”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I didn't program a lot when I was in high school, but I had a friend who had a Commodore pet. And after we saw Star Wars, he said, hey, let's make a basic program that does the Death Star Trench run. And it was just simple 2D graphics. And I didn't know what I was doing, so I just helped him out on the math and stuff like that. I was a math and science kid. I was really into the HP calculators of the early mid-70s. These were the RPN. They were really strongly built. And as R. Goldinger said of gold divinely heavy. There's probably some gold in them too. Gold metalization. But they were awesome calculators and they had all the scientific functions. So I was really into that. So I aimed toward physics.”
2021-02-12 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #160 – Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source