YouSaid · the spoken record

Camille Fournier

lines on the record: 86
first: 2024-09-15
most recent: 2024-09-15
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“You know, I think I might have forgotten about it at this point There is nothing satisfying because you get the fast feedback loop, it's just wonderful. Yeah.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, if you were programming a lot in high school and you got an undergraduate degree, so you, you know, let's say you've got six years. You know, you may only need four or five years of work 40 hour a week writing code experience. I'm sure it depends on the company, but like I do think when you see people that are like 23, they are just out very recently out of school. It's a different thing if you're a founder and you're, you know, that's a whole different life, right? But if you're in a big company and somebody's like, you have great communication skills, why don't you start to become a manager? Often they're actually pushing you to become a project manager, which is actually also the worst, you know, worst sort of path to real leadership, in my opinion. Like spend, you know, if you don't feel like you've done, also, if you just don't feel like you're done, right? If you're still having fun writing code, don't rush becoming a manager. Like writing code is awesome. Have fun. Enjoy it.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Know, I think this has been since disproven, but yeah, it was sort of that 10,000 hours idea of mastery at some point. You know, for me, it was like an undergraduate degree at graduate degree in four or five years of full-time work. So maybe I might be slow, right? I didn't start coding a lot in middle school like people might do now. But like, you know, I've felt like it took several years of hands-on work in a very intense undergraduate and graduate programs for me. So I do think it's probably somewhere in the 10-year range of like really having spent a lot of your time over those years in writing code and, you know, really understanding how to be a technical expert.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Don't just become a manager the first time somebody offers it to you. Like make sure you've really spent your good time writing code.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Engineering management. You know, I will say part of this is also like in particular, if you happen to be a woman or otherwise underrepresented person in tech, because people will tend to underestimate your technical abilities just unfortunately as a get-go. I also think it's a particularly important to kind of develop that internal confidence in your abilities before you make this sort of scary leap, which is scary for everyone of like having, you know, if you have that mastery before you make the leap, I wish more people would do this because honestly, I do think there are a lot of people who never really gain the mastery. They go into management. They lose it. And some of them are still perfectly good managers. And look, there are good managers who were never technical to begin with. I don't want to say that that's impossible. I just think that if you care about being technical, if you are technical now and you want to maintain that tech savvy.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's true. Although I will say that some of the most time wasting frameworks have also just come out of big companies, right? The context of the big company that may have made that framework super useful within that context. Doesn't translate to startup or small company or even big company that doesn't have the rest of the context. So, you know, I but I don't think he's not wrong. I also just think big companies share the blame on that one.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Like, collaborate with backend engineers, and they can just sort of build whatever, and it'll all be fine. And it just doesn't ever seem to work out that well for anybody who actually does it in practice. Again, obviously, it can work out that well because, you know, Facebook has made a great go of it. I'm sure there are other companies that are, but that's one where it's not that new, but it's, you know, it remains one of these things where it seems like an interesting fad that maybe is burning a lot of people.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I will say in this one example I actually put in my own notes for this conversation was GraphQL. I would not tell a team to use or not use GraphQL at this point because it's a bit out of my expertise zone and my level of management. It's not really my job anyway. But it is one of the things that is both popular and thought relatively poorly of by most of the senior people that I know. And so I guess I would say like that's one where I would say if you're seriously thinking about it and you're not like Facebook, you may really want to be, you may really want to make sure you know what problem you're trying to solve because the impression that I have from sort of listening to people talk about it is that GraphQL is kind of trying to promise front-end engineers that they don't really have.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Kind of side of tech you're in, but not obsessively chasing every fad. I think that being aware of, not necessarily chasing them, but particularly if you're working in groups, teams, larger companies, mid-sized companies, there is some amount of like, you're balancing the tech that makes one person go fast with the tech that makes 10 or 100 people go fast. And those are not always exactly the same thing.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, no, I mean, look, I actually feel like I know a lot of smart engineers who are in that category. They're like, we built amazing things in PHP and, you know, relatively simple SQL. And so much of tech is over engineering things. And, you know, and I think I don't totally disagree. I think the challenge is, though, of course, like what works as a one person show doesn't always work in a scaled organization for better, for worse, for in different like. you know, you've got to, you know, you've got to match like what makes one person really productive. Will it make 100 people, a thousand people, even 10 people really productive? You know, it's always a little, that's always a little hard to tell. And that's why I do think you should be like not, I think it's always a good idea to be keeping up with what's happening and what's changing and whatever.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, It's harder for me to say because I'm just like, I'm such a nerd. I just I really love tech. I'm in this industry because I'm just actually genuinely very interested. Certain corners, not every corner of technology, but certain corners of technology. I just like, I want to know, I want to know what the latest stuff that's happening in databases and infrastructure and, you know, I just, I find it all very interesting. And I find the problems interesting. So I think that makes me very successful because I just have that natural curiosity and passion and interest in it. But, you know, I don't know that that's a total prerequisite.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But there are smart people. You find the smart people in there. You sort of follow what they're saying. I think that's another good way to kind of keep that perspective.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I mean, I guess for me, it started with like going to conferences, meeting people. Now I'm in a lot of different chat groups where people are just sort of, you know, regularly communicating, you know, staying in touch with, you know, staying in touch with former colleagues. I will admit I'm kind of a social person and I have a big network. So this may be easier said than done. But I do think like, you know, being in the right group chats, I also think like I'm sure reading various tech news and tech tech sort of commentary and discussion boards. I mean, it's definitely a mixed bag of that stuff, I think.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The last thing I would say is surround yourself with smart technical people also as much as you can. And, you know, be willing to like listen to them talk about tech and ask them questions about things. I just, I feel like that's part of the reason that I'm able to stay kind of technically savvy and credible amongst people who work for me is not that I'm writing code because I'm not, but I am listening to a lot of very smart people talk about technology a lot down to the level of like I'm trying to debug this database issue like what the heck's going on and just constantly being interested in those stories and learning from them and learning what really smart engineers are thinking about and worrying about, you know, the more you can build that network of people that are still hands on and kind of stay in touch with that. I do think that that helps a lot.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, you're not going to be necessarily as fast as people who have been doing it, but you won't be completely clueless. And I think that all the things you learn getting to that really comfortable mastery of some part of tech hands-on tech will stay with you and will help you just sort of maintain a level of confidence in your own technical know-how and maintain a level of kind of empathy for what it means to be a good engineer. And I think just make you a lot less anxious about being hands off, even though I think everybody who makes that transition for a year or two, especially if you're really like have to be hands off because you just don't have time to write code at all, you know, you are going to be anxious for a while no matter what. The things to then think about from that point is like You know, being technical.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah. So one piece of advice I give everybody is don't stop being a hands-on technical until you feel like it's in your bones. You feel like you've got mastery that you could, if you know a second language fluently or if you like played an instrument like really, really seriously for a long time or maybe a sport really, really seriously for a long time. You'll be familiar with the, I haven't done that in a long time, but if I was to pick it up, it would be rusty, but I would get there pretty quickly, right? Maybe, you know, physically I wouldn't be as strong as I was as, you know, or whatever. But like I would get there. You can do that with writing code. You can do that with, you know, technical skills. If you do it for long enough, I think you can develop sort of a baseline mastery where like you're not going to be as fast and a lot of the challenges of being technical is actually in all the tooling and all the tooling evolution.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Would be when you're struggling making an evolution plan, take pieces potentially of the old system, uplift them, make them more scalable, make them easier to work with, you know, clean up the tech debt, but trying to say we're going to just go away, we're going to rewrite, we're going to build something brand new, and it's going to solve all our problems. It just very rarely works.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Worthwhile to change it at all? Like, doesn't matter, you know, and there's just a little, there's some questions there. I also think that when people try to do rewrites, particularly, again, if it's something that you're really trying to just like move to a new language, for example, or sort of modernize in a certain way, a lot of times people really underestimate what the old system does and how well they know what the old system does. You know, there's so much logic buried in legacy systems. It tends to be undocumented. It tends to be weird. You haven't thought through all the business rules. You haven't thought through the, you know, the data, you know, the data formatting. And I think, again, it's much, much harder to kind of replicate all the important things from the old system to the new system. And people expect. So there's more than that, but like there are, I do think sometimes you need to evolve systems.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Why that doesn't make any sense. So, this is a little bit of field of like my blog post that you're referring to. But so if you've got a system that doesn't really need feature enhancement or development because it's just sort of fine and the users are using it and it's like it's sort of like it's just annoying to the engineers why in the world would you invest so much money in writing a new version of it there's there's a little bit of like a cognitive dissonance that sometimes happens like if you need to do new stuff and the old system literally is not it's not possible to do the new stuff that you need to do you need to figure out a path to get to a sustainable system where you can continue to add and evolve you should be investing and so there's a you know there does need to be an investment but you have to ask yourself like if i could go away and not touch this and not do anything to it for a long period of time without it really harming my business is”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“On. So it's not going to be that big a deal. Engineers notoriously notoriously massively underestimate the migration time for old system to new system. And that causes a lot of problems. By the way, you still have to support the old system while you're working on the new system, right? So I doubt many of the PMs in the audience are ever happy when they hear we need to go away for six months, a year, two years to build this new thing and we just can't really add any features to the system in the interim. Like that's infuriating, I'm sure. And frankly, that's a problem. And I don't know that that should be an acceptable answer in many cases. There may occasionally again be a case where that is what has to happen. But I think most of the time you can't really afford to just say we're going to go away. We're not going to touch the system for a long time and we're going to build something new over here. So many things.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And I think projects where you acknowledge that you do need to do an uplift, but you make a very thoughtful staged plan as to how you're going to do that. And you really think through, okay, we don't need to touch all of this stuff, but we're going to, you know, we're going to take the recommendation system really needs to be uplifted. And that's a well-contained API. And so we can start to fix that without having to change the whole whatever web framework, right? So I do think there are ways to do these evolutions, but people really underestimate. They underestimate the time to migrate stuff from the old system to the new system is a huge, huge problem, particularly when you're talking about systems where you have sort of external people, you know, using the system in some way, whether it's, you know, web UIs or APIs, you think, oh, we kind of know what's going on.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, so I mean, I have personally overseen a number of, if not quite rewrites, re-architectures and like major system evolutions. And so I absolutely do think they are sometimes a thing that needs to happen. But I also have seen so many instances of cases where the engineers have convinced themselves that the only solution to the woes they are experiencing with the system. It's hard to support. It's hard to change, you know, nobody wants to organ it because it's this old crappy technology that they”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's more than just saying thank you to all these people, but it's actually sometimes like stepping back and letting other people speak, especially if it's something that's a really, really big technical list. I don't think there's like a super easy fix to that because I think it is just really being mindful that that can be very much a sore point for engineers when they just feel like this is my work. I'm not getting any credit for it. you know, this person is hogging all the glory”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, yeah, and you know, and like sometimes you mean you do it in a group, you know, you do it in a group meeting, you know, I feel like Slack and other chat type things actually make it a lot easier to kind of see have the right people in a group been a thing. But again, that's distracting, you know, so there's not an easy solution to that one. Just I think it's important to be aware of it”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That was not always easy, right? Because, again, you have this tension of A lot of the job of any management role is being in meetings, right? And filtering stuff so that people who are in a focused individual contributor mode can focus and get things done and not spend half of their week in meetings. You've just got to be very careful about knowing when you're crossing that line and when you're crossing it too often. And if you're having to often say, let me get back to you, let me get back to you. I don't know. Let me get back to you. Maybe the person you're talking to is asking the wrong level of questions of you. Maybe you need to connect them to the engineers directly. But just being aware that that shouldn't be a default behavior and will happen occasionally, but it shouldn't be a thing that happens a lot because if it's happening a lot, then you're likely missing something. You're likely losing something in that telephone game translation. And that's going to cause problems over time.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, kind of the details of what's going to make this successful from a business or a customer perspective, I do think that that creates just a much better interaction pattern. And then engineers can feel good about like sharing ideas and understanding that many of them won't go anywhere, but like there's somebody that's actually going to listen and take the time to care about them.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, I think the product managers that have done the best, they're not threatened by other people having ideas. They're not threatened by the engineering team being full of smart people because they realize that like, yeah, like engineers, some of the engineers may have good ideas, but they still don't really know how to do the product job. Like just my experience is there are plenty of engineers who actually think they can be product managers and they don't really understand all of the elements of the product job that they would need to be successful. And when product managers take the time to kind of build those relationships while make sure that people do feel like they can both share their ideas, but also that they start to appreciate what the job of this product person actually is and what they're really bringing to the table in terms of really how do we measure this input? How do we really understand the customers, right? How do we really think through.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I mean, that's my, you know, that happens without you doing that, right? Sometimes. But I do think when I see it worst, and I can basically always predict what I'm going to see a lot of that kind of engineers building stuff, you know, having finding creative outlets and kind of building stuff, maybe they shouldn't be. I'm going to find that in places where they are so. Quashed their creativity for the actual business or product that they're building and their voice in that is so ignored that they don't have any outlets in that space. And so they are going to use the space that they have an outlet in, the place where they have some control. And that's usually the technology choices and the details there.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Particularly sort of senior engineers on projects crazy. And then the last one that I wanted to put on this list is just when sometimes it feels like product managers want to hoard all the ideas for themselves, right? They want to be the ones that come up with every single sort of product idea and every single detail. And what I see happen in those cases is that I see engineers start to over engineer things because engineers are like, well, I need to take control of something, right? Like I want to have some creative outlet. So I'm going to use my engineering skills as my creative outlet and I'm going to spend a lot of time obsessing over the right framework or the right this side or the other that may actually not matter that much products delivery. But when you take the people that are part of the product project team out of the creative loop entirely, you just, you know, they're going to find that creative outlet somewhere else. And it's actually kind of bad for the product.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The third is playing telephone. Anybody in a manager role can fall victim to this, but I think PMs especially can be very annoying. So if you are being asked questions that you cannot answer because you just don't know, right? Because that's something that involves a level of technical detail that only the engineers have, but you just don't have. And you put yourself in this in-between position where people ask you questions, you turn around, you ask the engineer's questions, you take whatever they say, especially when you don't really understand it, which happens sometimes, right? Go back to the original asker and sort of get in this kind of middle person scenario. I think that is very annoying. And frankly, it's kind of a waste of time for everyone. This is something that managers of all stripes do, but PMs definitely.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Pudding, even though I will totally agree that sometimes you're going to get details that don't really matter, and you just have to be a little bit patient in those circumstances.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Easy annoyance, right? Just like don't throw it all credit. This is not just you, right? There's a lot more that has to go into that. I think that sort of dovetails into the next thing that engineers really get annoyed about with PMs when they just don't understand the details and act like they don't matter. And I think this is just a little bit of a cultural difference, right? So like if you are, I mean, even managers, just normal managers, right? People like me who are looking across really broad areas or you're you have to be kind of big picture focused and you forget that engineering done successfully really is all about the details and you don't necessarily have to understand all of those details but when you act like they don't matter and you don't care about them and it's just like I don't care just like tell me when you can get this done or why is it going to take so long oh my god like this just seems like such a little thing you know it just shows a real lack of kind of empathy for the work that engineers are doing and I think it really can be very often”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I would say there are a few things that PMs do that annoy engineers. And to be clear, I am sure that engineers annoy P So I realize this is a two way street. So I think there are some things that are really easy to fix and some things that are maybe a little bit harder. So the easy things to fix are hoarding credit. Sometimes I think PMs because they tend to be the front-facing person for initiatives. They're talking to customers. They're talking to the executive team, whatever. Engineers sometimes think that they don't get the credit for their work because the PM sort of takes all the glory and all the credit for the project that they really kind of worked very hard on, right? So making every effort to be kind of credit sharing and inclusive at the engineering team and giving them the opportunity to speak about their contributions when it makes sense. I think those are all things that PMs can do to avoid that kind of that what I consider kind of a pretty”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Lot of people assume that engineers just write code and don't underestimate the ability for your engineers to want to understand the business problem, want to understand the customer problem. I think the product managers that have done the best, they're not threatened by other people having ideas”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Next thing that engineers really get annoyed about with them is when they just don't understand the details and act like they don't matter. It just shows a real lack of empathy for the work that engineers are doing. And I think it really can be very off-putting.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They tend to be the front facing person for initiative. Engineers sometimes think that they don't get the credit for their work because the PM takes all the glory and all the credit for the project that they really worked very hard on.”
2024-09-15 · Lenny's Podcast · The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source