YouSaid · the spoken record

Charlotte Proudman

lines on the record: 37
first: 2026-07-04
most recent: 2026-07-04
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“Contact and a victim or complainant's medical record should never be disclosed to their perpetrator. At the moment, there is no definition of rate and consent and family court. So it's almost impossible. It's so difficult, if not impossible, for complainants to prove rape, because they don't know what standard they need to meet. I mean, I could go on and on with 30 different changes that I think we need in law, but we need a wholesale, I think, systemic change through a bill. And I know that members of parliament such as Alex Davis-Jones, the former minister for victims is very keen on this, as is Jess Phillips and very many other members of Parliament. And I do hope that whilst we have a Labour government, there's maybe something that we can look at further.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think the first thing that I would do actually is introduce a family justice bill. We presently use as the framework full family law, the children act, which dates back to 1989. And however well-intentioned that was, of course, it's very outdated. In 1989, marital rape was legal then. Being gay was a criminal offence. Domestic abuse is not even written in the Children Act. And I think the laws in family court very much need updating. And one of the concerns I have is that we're constantly tinkering with the legislation. We're appealing legislation when repealed the presumption of parental involvement. You know, we are seeking to amend legislation and add other things such as judicial training, but actually we need a wholesale change. And what I mean by that, for example, is we need to make it clear that when rate domestic abuse are proven, that there's actually a presumption of no.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Her child, and lo and behold, the father Reneed on all of those promises, and there was nothing the courts in London could do. She was completely stranded and isolated away from her family and effectively locked in a prison abroad, embattling immigration, battling criminal court and battling family court, and she found herself arrested for child abduction. Women, I think, are mothers that go above and beyond to try and protect their children through abducting them. Yes, it's wrong. Yes, it's a criminal offence, but desperate circumstances to protect their children are often considered to be perpetrators and are very much punished by legal institutions, particularly the courts that should actually be protecting them.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“they couldn't be more wrong. What often happens is that the court, the high court in London will say, regardless of the alleged abuse that's been inflicted on you and or your child, you have to go back. And I represented Lisa, who fled, and think in the book I refer to it as her having fled, Australia, to this country and I represented Lisa and she was ordered to return, notwithstanding all of the alleged abuse that she and the child had suffered and the father gave a number of promises saying well if Lisa and the child are returned I promise that Lisa won't be arrested by the police for abduction and I promise I'll support her getting immigration status and I promise that I'll pay maintenance so that Lisa has a roof over her head and she's not homeless with the child. In fact what happened is Lisa got back to Australia with”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, a child abduction. Most people think, gosh, that sounds awful, you know, a parent abducting the children from another parent and leaving from one country to another. But I just want people to imagine how desperate a parent must be to leave their home, leave all of their possessions and belongings and take their child, put them on a flight such that they get away from another parent who's allegedly or sometimes proven to have been profoundly abusive towards them such that they are fleeing a really dangerous situation. In many parents, and it's often mothers, believe that once they leave that country and say come to the UK, that England and Wales courts will protect them.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In fact, after going to a fact find hearing, it was absolutely tragic, but Gemma was found to be a victim of rape, domestic abuse, coercive and controlled in behaving. The children were found to have been abused by the father. And importantly, the judge found that the father had used parental alienation as a weapon to frighten, torment, and intimidate Gemma such that she felt silence. That is how dangerous this weapon and label can actually be. And in some cases, these children can be transferred from living with their mother to their father because of so-called alienation to correct their thinking and to make them love the father because apparently the mother is guilty of alienation. So it's a simplistic concept but plays out on so many quite warped ways and family court are very much I think bought into the Unfortunately.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Is exactly the same. And you know, in cases that I've been involved in, in the book I talk about Gemma's case, Gemma was accused of parental alienation by the father and the court allowed the father to have an expert psychologist to opine on where the Gemma was guilty of alienation, the children effectively. And I appealed that on Gemma's behalf and said that psychologists is incapable of diagnosing.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That simplistic narrative has been highly effective, particularly amongst judges who accept it. Legal professionals where it's an entire industry based on this and making submissions of this nature in court, and particularly experts, psychologists who have asserted for a long time that they can diagnose parental alienation. As Dr Richard Gardner argued some decades ago, even though parental alonation is not recognised in the DSM, it's not recognised by the World Health Organization, it's not recognised by NICE, not even recognised by the UN. In fact, it was debunked by the UN, it is not a recognisable concept by any credible authority. And yet we still see it play out in our courts. And now it's referred to as alienating behavior. And frankly, there's no difference. It's just a change in language. But the actual meaning behind it.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“A mother, and it is usually very gendered, a mother is accused by a father of turning the children against him, manipulating the children or influencing them to align with her. And ordinarily prime cleanation is used by fathers who are accused of domestic abuse. And so what he will often say, and I argue that this is usually straight out of a perpetrator playbook is to say, I wasn't abusive towards her or the children. The reason the children don't want to see me is because she's turned them against me.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Parentaliation is a highly contested concept, which, in my view, is junk science. And it stems from an academic based in the US who coins parental alienation called Dr. Richard Gardner some decades ago, is now since passed away. But his legacy of alienation very much continues. And we've seen it used now in the UK, but it's always been used in family courts. And the idea of parental alienation is a very simplistic one.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Argument here for better training and understanding, and I'm somewhat surprised that there continues to be such pushback, which I think makes me even more concerned.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Met with some criticism by the lady Chief Justice who said that judicial training is entirely a matter for her and is not an issue that Parliament should be taking up, which I find somewhat extraordinary, I must say, because I do think that judicial training is a democratic issue and one which should be scrutinised, not just by other legal professionals, but by wider society. So again, judges are held accountable. Ultimately, they are paid for by the state and any training that they undertake, I do think there is a public interest and a matter of public importance that they know what that is, particularly when we understand the studies on the prevalence of victim blaming and other forms of, I think, inequality that can play out within judgment where the subconsciously or unconsciously or consciously. So I think there's a really strong”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Notwithstanding that, we've continued our quest to ensure proper and robust training for judges and worked with right to equality, women's aid and other not-for-profits women's rights organisations, asking the judicial college and indeed the Lady Chief Justice, what training is actually provided to judges, particularly family judges, and we still don't have a clear answer. You know, we don't know specifically what trainee is provided, how often, what the mandatory nature of it looks like, the curriculum, the experts that are involved. There are a lot of questions we don't know about. And a member of parliament recently tried to table an amendment to the courts and tribunal bill calling for specific training and also greater understanding of what judges are trained on. And unfortunately, that was”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so when the domestic abuse bill was going through Parliament, I worked with members of Parliament, including Jess Phillips, Baroness, Gabby Burton, Claire Waxman, who's now a Victims Commissioner. And the reason that we worked together was that we wanted to introduce mandatory judicial training on domestic abuse and complex dynamics of trauma, memory, also stereotypes and tropes that can be used so that judges are properly educated in this field, you know, which experts spend years being trained in. But unfortunately, the government at that point, the Conservative government voted against it, so it wasn't put into legislation.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Seeking to close down complaints, and I also think there needs to be greater transparency as well. So I think for me, there's a real issue around judicial accountability and transparency. And I set up a not-for-profit organization called Right to Equality in 2022, and they published a report this month, in fact, which shows the levels of bias within family court judgments with over 70% of judgments was just under 100 that were explored, more than 70% of those included examples of victim blaming behaviour by judges towards victims or biases towards them, towards mothers in particular. So I think we have a long way to go in terms of recognising some of the challenges amongst those in real positions of power that sit on the bench.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Perpetrators of behavior which should not be permitted in the legal profession is tolerated. You know, our legal profession should be upheld with the utmost integrity and professionalism. And if you see a judge behaving that way towards a young junior female barrister, how are rape victims or domestic abuse victims going to feel when they see this judge presiding over their case in a criminal court or otherwise? probably going to lack trust and confidence in the sister.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In all honesty, I don't think I have. I mean, of course, I'm in a different position now. I'm not as junior. I did experience sexual assault and harassment when I was very genially undertaking many pupilages or work experience. I understand from more junior contemporaries that things haven't really changed and there still remains a culture of fear and silence and speaking out because of the consequences for their career. I mean, I've experienced harassment from even judges, one judge in particular who used an anonymous account, his honor judge Daniel Sawyer, to in my view, troll me and harass me and bully me. Notwithstanding that, the judicial complaints information office effectively refused to investigate this judge. And I think that that sends out a strong message that”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of violence. And the fact that this is happening within the legal profession, I think in some ways explains Why the legal profession still remains closed off to certain groups of women? Not all of them, of course, those that conform to patriarchy or foot soldiers of patriarchy or believe that they achieve power through conforming to expectations that often do quite well. But for other women, I think that are very much non-traditional variety of reasons I think struggle Legal professions approach to them is one in which I think it disentivies women from speaking out and engendering change because of how harmful pushing back actually is.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Was successful in campaigning to open the doors to women, although still very few women are part of that. But you can imagine the backlash that came with it. And I was called the C word. I was called a bitch, wanker, mentally ill, all sorts of things. And this was by barristers, by the way. And my regulator took no action against them and said all of these men had a right to free speech that apparently misogyny, sometimes violence actually, in terms of the way in which this was framed on social media, gender violence, they also said was free speech. And I challenged that and I'm waiting for that decision to be made in the employment tribunal against my regulator. I think it's utterly wrong that women that speak out are silenced through threats to their career, their livelihood, their personhood and gender.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I thought some of the comments were very troubling, so I tweeted about that and then found myself in a disciplinary tribunal after three years of litigation. I was completely vindicated and exonerated and it was thrown out. But at the same time, as I've been sharing cases, as you say, you mentioned cases in the newspapers and I campaigned against the Garrett Club and judges being male judges being members of this all-male club where there's supposed to be, you know, they're supposed to embody diversity and equality and we're supposed to have trust in their judgment and yet at the same time members of a club that excludes half the population.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“A great question. And I think for a long time, I don't think I applied a lot of self protection to my campaign work, which came at obviously a huge cost. So I would share things that I think are important to raise awareness without necessarily being probably fully cognizant of the backlash that would come as a consequence of that. So when I criticised a judge in a case in which I'd represented the wife and I criticised the judge for his views on domestic abuse in this particular case and I said that his views on domestic abuse had echoes of the boys club and this judge was a member of the Garrick Club which I was alluding to and also generally been to Eton in his 70s high court very privileged background you know reflective of sometimes Very skewed demographic.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Involvement in a child's life, but would have to prove that they are safe, and that was successful last year. So she really has been at the forefront and very instrumental in campaigning for some of these changes.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“To speak out. It was a first by setting a precedent that rape victims should not be financially subsidising the costs of child contact with their rapists. That in and of itself I argued as a form of domestic abuse and it was the first in terms of her ensuring protective measures such that the father Andrew Griffiths couldn't have contact with the child and his parental responsibility was restricted to protect her and their child. You know, many, many firsts and I must say I find it devastating that Kate is no longer a member of parliament after the recent change of government, the Labour Party of course won and now they're in power because she really did put family court reform on the agenda campaigning for the presumption of parental involvement to be repealed such that rapists and abusive father's not exclusively but largely would not then have the right to”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Kate, on the other hand, as a politician, wanted to speak about her experiences of what happened behind closed doors, which was very unusual as well. So it was one of the first cases whereby Kate fought for the right as a mother in family law proceedings to be able to share her story as to what had happened. And we went all the way to the Court of Appeal for her to be able to do that so that she could champion other survivors who perhaps do not have the same power or resources or platform as her to generate change within family cause because of what she had been through. And I think that's very courageous and brave of her to do that. And in many ways, Kate's case was a first. It was a first in terms of arguably, you know, proving rate domestic abuse and coercive control by a minister. It was a first by getting the right.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And so I felt that she very much shattered a lot of those stereotypes because we know that domestic abuse happens across all demographic backgrounds and we understand that people, certainly women and children with intersectional inequalities and oppressions that play out, particularly when it comes to race, immigration status, language barriers and so forth obviously have it far harder in terms of raising domestic abuse within family courts and seeking to be believed and have a lot further to go.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Unusually within the family court, at least, but probably not, of course, within society, is that Kate Niveton really defied a lot of stereotypes and tropes that play out when it comes to domestic abuse victims. She was a powerful, independent, middle-class woman who is a member of parliament, which she was certainly at the time. can't think perhaps of a more powerful position for a woman to occupy. And yet behind closed doors, when she was the wife of Andrew Griffiths, who at the time was a minister and a member of parliament, he was raping, abusing, coercively controlling her and being abusive towards their child as well.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Inside of me would see the injustices in court and would feel this burning desire and sense of injustice such that I needed to challenge some of these decisions, particularly where I saw judicial bias and sexism and prejudice towards women and children play out and dangerous decisions being made. And so I think Denise's case, among some others that I speak about in the book very much encouraged me to continue with the campaign work both inside and outside of court, which then again came with quite a significant backlash.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Think that's probably broadly right. I mean, I went through a real media storm in 2015 when I called out a solicitor for what I thought was sexist behaviour on LinkedIn, when he made comments about my picture and wanting to work together because it was, you know, it was hot stuff or words akin to that. I called him out on social media, didn't expect anything to happen. Of course, it went viral. Sarah Vine from the Daily Mail wrote a piece called Me a Feminazi and then it ended up everywhere. Friends in Pakistan, Australia, all over the world saying it had reached them as well. And I think after that experience, which came with an enormous backlash including death threats and all sorts of abuse, I decided, yes, I would keep my head down far more than I had. I really just crack on with my cases one after one day by day representing victims and survivors. But as always, the campaigner is...”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“worker who had used his position of power and trust to try and get Denise diagnosed with bipolar, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with Denise's mental health, should not have bipolar, if anything, she suffered with symptoms that I would describe as akin to post-traumatic stress. So it was an incredible result for Denise in terms of turning the case around, but a highly traumatizing experience for her.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And this really was very much, I think, a rallying moment. And I represented Denise in what became the Lee case of RHN in the Court of Appeal in 2021, where we appeal the decision that the judge had made to allow regular contact between the child, Denise's child and the father. Denise just couldn't facilitate contact with what she described as a man who'd raped her and abused her and she felt the child was very much unsafe and we were successful in that guidance case in setting out that coercive control is as harmful as physical abuse amongst many other issues. And then Denise had to go to a retrial in front of a judge who's now Lord Justice Carb who sits in the court of appeal actually just become the president of the family division and that was one of the first cases in which the family court defined gaslighting because the father who was a mental health”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So I met with Denise and she had told me she'd been into family court in front of a judge who's on a judge Scarret and she'd explain that when she described her rape and domestic abuse allegations, the judge had said to her, if you carry on with your rape allegations, I could have your child put into foster care or adopted. She told me she was terrified by that. And I must say, even having heard all sorts of things that have been said in court myself directly, I doubted what Denise had said. I thought surely this very senior judge wouldn't say such a thing to her, a rape complainant in court, and then we obtained the audio from the court hearing and I actually heard the judge saying this to her and scolding her, shouting at her even with a raised voice and you could hear Denise sobbing on the court audio”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And it really was an incredibly daunting and eye-opening experience. And one of those was from my mentor. As I say, he was sponsoring me, so providing advice and guidance and support throughout Basque school process. And I'll never forget him turning to me and saying, you've done so well to make it here, but you won't make it at the bar and you won't become a barrister. You know, I look back on that now, and every time I see him, we're still very, very close friends, you know, he laughs at that, as do I. But we both remember it very well. You know, given where I come from and my background, and I love to prove people wrong, but it does show he kind of obstacles you're up against, you know, before you've even got into the profession. You're very much seen as an outsider.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I remember the sort of the laughter at that, sort of even that suggestion. And my teacher suggesting that I might be better suited to becoming a clerk. And I'll never forget there was this huge sort of career book and it looked like the yellow pages. And you could scan through all of the different professions and then it would tell you what qualifications or experience you needed to become a solicitor or a doctor, whatever it might be. And so it was just seen as very much unreachable to suggestion that I was very much out of touch and having this aspiration. And then, of course, I went off and I did study law at university. I went to my local university keel, lived at home to save money. And then I went to bar school and I obtained a scholarship. And that was my first time living away from home in London. So my first experience as well of upper class circles.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think that's right. I mean, going to a state school growing up in Lee in Saftuich is a small, very, very small town. It's one of those places, you know, where everyone knows everyone and you walk around the town and you recognize the same phases and you'll have some sort of connection with people within that small town. And I'd never met a barrister before I went off to university and did work experience. I can understand, I suppose, within my school that say you wanted to be a lawyer or solicitor or barrister or so forth, there's probably quite an alien concept in many ways. So I remember my teacher when we were discussing as a class what we wanted to do when we got older. And I said at that point I wanted to be a solicitor.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“For them as well. So I think that my very early childhood experience has definitely been a motivator. Within law as well, I think particularly undertaking work experience within that field, I was able to see how very few young women from non-traditional law backgrounds, particularly from working class backgrounds and state school educated, they actually are in the legal field and how important it is to have more diversity so that the legal profession actually represents the society and people that we go into court and fight for and advocate for every day.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I think reflecting back on some of those experiences, writing the book, which my editor really encouraged, I think it helped me trace perhaps my journey from a child to a teenager adolescent to now, obviously as an adult, as to how I've ended up where I have. So as I say, my file's an alcoholic and violent. And then he died in a car accident in which he was drunk and killed another woman as well. And obviously that would have had a profound impact upon me as a child being exposed to abuse within the household. And I think as a result of that, it's made me more understanding and empathetic with the women and children that I represent in family courts and wanting to advocate on their behalf to ensure that they do obtain the protection that they say desperately require and that the law does provide some semblance of justice.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, so for me, I come from a non traditional law background. I was brought up by my mom, single parent. My father died when I was four, which is obviously quite a formative experience at such a young age. And he was an alcoholic and violent.”
2026-07-04 · Intelligence Squared · Is Our Justice System Failing Women? With Barrister Charlotte Proudman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT