YouSaid · the spoken record

Chris Hayes

lines on the record: 77
first: 2025-01-23
most recent: 2025-01-23
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Well, I think that, like I said before, I think it is clarifying and useful for the people running these enterprises to more forthrightly announce what their politics and interests are. And I think that there was a kind of, I think both their politics have changed, but also the way they perform their politics has changed. And I think that, again, there's a backlash coming. I don't know what it's gonna look like, but I know that the more you delay it, like the more you stuff kinetic energy into it, the bigger it's gonna be when it comes out. And I just feel like day by day you're pushing the spring down further and further and further. And the more you push it down.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We're going to start regulating this. And that, you know, part of his breaking up these companies, which I think are too big, part of it is discussions about how to regulate it. I think we should be having a conversation about if we take seriously how valuable attention is and how relentlessly it's being extracted from us as a collective action problem, then the way that we pursue this is through collective solutions, through our own democratic representatives.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That can use it. And then that gets to sort of the, you know, these are sort of different business models, civic projects, nonprofits. And then there's regulation and movements to regulate attention. And that's why I talk about the labor movement and I talk about the Lochner decision. The Lochner decision is the Supreme Court says you can't create a maximum number of hours work for bakers in New York. That's a violation of their 14th Amendment rights. That decision creates a line of jurisdictions that basically invalidates much of the New Deal and then is reversed. Was a time where people would say, You'll never be able to limit the amount of hours people can work. That's a free country. They can work as many hours as they want. I think that.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Going on in food, right? And by the way, I mean, it's possible. It's well, first let me answer that first. We just did a whole podcast with a brilliant guy named Nick Arville about the possibility of Ozmpec as an addiction drug more broadly. It's possible the Ozempic for it is actually Ozempic. Or general development of GLP1s for addictive behavior, which may actually have knock-on effects on all sorts of things that we compulsively do. On the first thing, I think it's a really, really great and important point that the transformation in food culture had this incredible class division, and that you don't want the same digital movement to have the same. And part of the reason I think that non-commercial internet is important is to create open and free spaces for all kinds of people.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Great guy. And the reason that you hear the term wherever you get your podcast is because RSF podcasting publishing is an open protocol. You can get it in a bunch of places. All of the internet used to be like that. Less and less of the internet is like that”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Which is why Musk is attacking it. The folks who have built Signal as a nonprofit messaging service that is a fully non-commercial form of messaging. And we could have non-commercial social networks. We could have all kinds of non-commercial forms of the Internet Built as alternatives, including non commercial open protocols, which have existed before, like, The RSS protocol partially developed by my departed friend Aaron Schwartz. What podcasts rely on”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“These are different versions of people just rebelling against the mainstream in their own small ways. Then there's bigger attempts, like Wikipedia is one of the last standing vestiges of the non-commercial internet, but the folks who've built signals.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Not for everybody, but. Which is crucial and I think actually a warning, but genuinely revolutionize the way that food production and food culture works in the United States 40, 50 years later. So that's one part of it. When you think about... Talk about vinyl records, right? The growth of vinyl records, which is now the single most popular form of music purchase after streaming, which I definitely would not have predicted buying CDs in 1993 at HMV. And that's also because of a kind of mass movement away from one, the compressed quality of streaming music, which is not as good as what you hear on vinyl, but also the sort of attentional jumpiness you get from a streaming playlist where you can skip ahead, whereas where you put a record on, you're going to listen.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Those Bohemian fringe weirdos who are like, we're rejecting the way that the mainstream produces purchases food. We're going to create our own little alternatives to it ended up absolutely revolutionizing”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, I think there's layers to how people will act in opposition to this form of attention capitalism, which I think has been profoundly alienating. One is... People acting the way that a whole bunch of folks started to in the 60s and 70s in relation to the industrial food system. There was the dominant system. It was industrial food prediction. And then there were people at the fringes who did things like start the back of the land movement and go and start farms and started the practice of organic farming and started opening natural food stores and started farmers' markets. The first one in New York City in the early 1970s. Now at the time these were all just kind of like bohemian hippie fringe weirdos essentially. But it turned out they were on to something. And like”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But I think that, and I do think the more dystopian in some ways to Rachel's point, Musk and Zuckerberg and Bezos aligning with Trump is actually weirdly useful insofar as it's kind of clarifying for things for people who have felt an incoherent. Not quite articulated sense of At the prison they've been put in”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“More force going into it. And I can't predict how it will manifest itself. I talk about a few examples and analogs in the book from...”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It is growing by the second people do not like it. And whoever figures out how to channel that, and there's going to be a million different ways people are going to drop out. There's going to be a kind of no phones offline movement. There's going to be people that try to build a new version of the non-commercial internet, the folks who are now trying to do that with a blue sky develop protocol. People are going to opt out. They're going to try to create niche businesses that block your phone. They're going to try new changes to lifestyles. They're going to try political movements that regulate attention, that take phones out of schools. There's going to be all this stuff. But the backlash that is coming for this is every second I can feel”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This slot machine world, this constant ubiquitous casino is severed by a brain chip implant that's controlled by Elon Musk. So in that respect, I think that is an even more frightening dystopia than what we're approaching. But here's what I will say, and I do genuinely feel in my bones. The backlash that is brewing to this experience of contemporary life is enormous.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Before he came out and spent a quarter of a billion dollars, before he basically became co-president. And in some senses, I undercounted him. Because I think what was driving his attention mania was something deep within his person in the same way as Trump. But I think he's backed into the same inside of Trump, which is that it's the most powerful resource. And now he is using it to command power and fortunes. And so, in that respect, I didn't quite predict that, even though Musk emerges as a prime figure in the book. I do think there is a genuine dystopian vision ahead of us in which the last boundaries between us and this”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's a great question from a brilliant mind. I mean, let me say, let me first agree with Rachel and Cop to something, which is that the book closed before Musk really threw himself into the election.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“With Trump and Musk, neither of them is it an act. And I think that's really key. You can't. I think I'd put it this way you can't fake being a sociopath.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right, you got to innovate your way to it. And I don't, I'm not a genius enough to know what that looks like. If I did, I'd probably get into politics, but I don't.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And the idea that Donald Trump was what Republicans needed was an absurd idea. So. Part of the way this all works is we have this sort of pendulum of public opinion and backlash builds up. And as Steve Jobs once said famously, and it's quote I always use, it's not the customer's jobs know what they want. And it's not the voters' job to know what they want until they see it. You got to try stuff, is the key. And maybe you can't reverse engineer transformative politics.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's an awesome question that I don't know the answer to. I'm sort of tempted to say two things that are basically in tension with each other. One is, yes, you have to understand the current attention economy. And the other is part of the magic of successful politics is innovating in a way that no one saw coming. And I say this all the time because this was a formative part of my political career. It's like, When Democrats lost in 2004, George W. Bush. The idea that what they needed was a black constitutional professor from a big city who was an anti-war liberal named Barack Hussein Obama. It's like an absurd idea. It was like, no, you need a regular guy that you want to have a beer with, that middle American, like.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And court's attention and is very effective at it and is willing to go into spaces, she does these Instagram lives where she's just taking questions. And I can imagine her staffers being like, oh God, no, I can't control that. It's like, it's fine. Good. You can't control it. Good, right.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, and also, like, they don't look, part of it is like a genuine pro-social adaptation, which is. I don't want to say things that hurt people unnecessarily, particularly groups that have historically been martialized or disfavored So, that care, I think, is an important thing to preserve. Do think AOC is a great example of someone. Who cares about that and also DGAF about everything else”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Better talk. Yeah, I mean, there's, yes, there's a bunch of different reasons for this. I mean, partly too. It's like there's actually good reasons, which is I think generally liberals care if they say things that are offensive to people.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Didn't matter. He was just like, I'm out here They have not internalized that. They're so, I mean, I'm sure you have worked with democratic political PR folks.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's literally that simple. Like the same thing I said about Trump where his one simple hack was choose negative attention over no attention. PT Barnum, as long as you spell my name right, ma'am. They don't do that. They're like, oh, there might be a gaffe. We might say, like, look at JD Vance. JD Vance had a bunch of really bad interviews.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So it's like Twitter was like, we're the free speech wing of the free speech party. We don't do content moderation. And then they had this enormous harassment problem around Gamergate where users were being driven off the platform. And it's like, oh, we have to do something. Like none of this stuff is abstract. It keeps happening over and over and over and over and over again.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Part of what facilitated that was that the state really, I mean, the sort of military used Facebook as a platform to spread Libeless hate speech against a disfavored minority in order to facilitate their mass expulsion and slaughter. And that was the thing that kind of prompted a lot of these changes. I just read Kate Conger and Marian Mack's really good book about Twitter character limit. And one of the things you keep encountering over and over is that everyone keeps reinventing the wheel.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I also think you know this better than anyone, but all this talk about Facebook content moderation, it's, again, these things are not hypothetical. Like there was an actual genocide in which thousands of people were slaughtered in Myanmar.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right, if my friends are talking about something, that's different than if I read a New York Times article. And it's crazy to put those on the same place. And sometimes people talk nonsense or they pass along rumors. That's fine. That's part of being human. Like we gossip. We talk about rumor. We speculate about stuff. We don't know. We talk about things we don't know anything about. We do that all the time. That's fine. That's a human activity. But it's actually important that there's another thing It's called The news were like Well”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, of course. It makes it impossible to do the work of self-governance. I mean, because you're not... The idea of the news is a separate thing, means that you're bringing, like, I encounter a news story differently than I encounter two people just like talking smack.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think it's wildly dangerous. I mean, there's a few things going on. One is that I think the death of the news as a separate and distinct form of Separate and distinct form of quote unquote content is really bad. And I think increasingly that's how people get, they just get content. And it's like, Get ready with me while I tell you about the time that my husband cheated on me with my sister, and I make up makeup. Here's a weightlifting video. Here's a video about how the aliens built the pyramids. Here's a video about how, you know, Joe Biden screwed you on student debt. I mean, whatever it is.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“See, that's smart No, see, you need like that's a great, I think that's exactly the right position. Someone needs to be looking at it. Like, you need to look at them, right? But the individual writers don't. And I think this world we have now where, look, I love, there are tons of substacks I read and enjoy, and I think people are doing great work. It's similar to what I just said about TikTok. I've learned a lot. There are people with genuine expertise who are doing genuine reporting on these independent platforms, and I genuinely like them. And I'm actually really super encouraged that people have carved out niches. But one thing about that market model is that you as the sole proprietor, your mortgage rises or falls on how many eyeballs you're getting. And, you know, that's its own kind of distorting influence”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Tell St. Peter what I did. What's I also think it's just not good because I think, first of all, there's a little bit of garbage in, garbage out, but it also starts to make you, it starts to insidiously affect, I think, your decisions. And part of the problem”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I gave it up during COVID because I was just like, this is like there's bigger fish to fry here in the world. And in terms of when I go and meet my maker and tell.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You just face a lot of tough choices about how to make those calls, and you basically try to be guided by ethical commitments you have, but also understand that there are certain trade-offs that are just trade-offs.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah Yes. And so personally, I'm trying to do the most ethical valuable work within this structure. And I think it's possible to do that. I wouldn't keep doing if I didn't. I'm proud of the work I do. The Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve has what's called famously the dual mandate. There are two things the Federal Reserve is attempting to do, and those two things are often in tension with each other. They're trying to keep inflation low and maximize employment. Now, it's kind of a sliding scale. Sometimes steps you would take to keep inflation low, like raising interest rates, will reduce employment. And likewise, to steps you would take to reduce employment might risk running inflation. Cable news and in, I would argue, any journalistic undertaking these days, there's a dual mandate, which is to get people's attention, because if you don't have that, you can't do anything, and to give them the information and tools necessary to engage in democratic self-governance. And sometimes there's really tough choices in the same way being a central banker's hard.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I've learned tons of stuff. I've watched amazing explanations of a point in constitutional law. I've seen someone who works in fire management talk about the California fires and why they're like, so you got to distinguish between like, what's the structure of the market and what are individual people doing? There are all sorts of critiques of the cable news structure that I think are similar to the critiques you could offer of these of the digital platforms like it is fundamentally a model that is trying to capture people's attention and sell it that is going to drive toward certain things. The evening news is another example, right? The cliche that people use about if it bleeds, it leads negativity bias, the saying that we have in news, which is we don't cover the planes that land, right?”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Like local news did it And Which I was like Yeah, I mean, look, I guess I would say that there's two ways to think about all these situations. Like, there's the broad structure of a particular form of attention market or attention capture, and then there's individuals operating within it. So there's people doing literally fantastic stuff on TikTok.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And also, what's wild to me is that Facebook's the sort of model of Facebook, right, which is like we have all this data about you and you're the kind of person who likes Axem will give you that. What's amazing about the TikTok algorithm is that it can change with you. So like I write about it in the book the experience of getting a little stoned on a gummy and scrolling TikTok and realizing 40 minutes in it had literally just been showing me sandwiches. And it's like, it knew I was high. In that moment, like, I don't always want to look at sandwiches, but the algorithm was sensitive enough. To know that, like, in that moment, I wanted to look at sandwiches.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And that's what Facebook does. They do it at a scale that would have been unfathomable to Benjamin Day. TikTok is doing the same thing, but I actually think there's an innovation in TikTok that we're now seeing spread across. X is using it, Reels. The move from, and I'm really curious what you think, the move from using the social graph, which is a map of people's relationships, primarily in real life, to determine content and attention for people, what kind of ways you're trying to get their attention to the algorithmic model of TikTok. Is an enormous change. And I think really bad.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, they're selling the slot machine. Other people might be programming, but they're selling a slot machine. So Facebook is purely an attention company. They have their business model is not that different in its essentials as Benjamin Day's business model for the New York Sun when he invented the Penny Press, which was you basically give away the product for free and then you sell the audience as advertising.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You know, you and I actually interviewed Tim Cook together, and he's very proud of the fact that, like, Know, we sell products, we don't sell attention, which is sort of true and not true. I mean, there's other stuff they do now. But they are fundamentally they're selling the portal. Yes, they are.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I mean, Apple is the founder of the attention age because I think the point at which we enter the attention age is 2007 when jobs interview introduces the iPhone, the first smartphone. I agree. When people say, well, what's different? It's like, well, the smartphone creates a level of ubiquity that never existed before. It's totalizing in a way that no device was before. And that's really when we enter this age. So they're in some ways the most responsible. And because they can sell physical hardware.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, exactly. So first they come up with ad words, then they buy a particular company, and they basically create the back end. For all ad tech that powers the modern commercial internet, which is basically capturing people's data, understanding how that data might model out to what advertisements might work for them, and then informing advertisers and essentially acting as a kind of auctioneer market maker to sell them ads”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And there were two innovations there. One was they built a better mousetrap, better search, but the monetary innovation was twofold. One is they could, once they captured your attention, sell it to advertisers because they were preserving your attention by actually giving you the search information you wanted. And number two, crucially, by capturing your data. And understanding and capturing enormous amounts of data, they could, at scale. Taylor bespoke advertising.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I know that's what I'm saying. And it was like, it was hard to find stuff on the internet. And then Google just truly built a better mousetrap where it was like, you would want something, you'd search for it and be like, oh, it's right there. All of a sudden, the internet is legible and traversable.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The value proposition of Google. And for people that were not around, I mean, Google really was like the ultimate better mousetrap in a way that very few products in my life ever have been. I mean, do you remember using Metacrawer?”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The modern commercial internet. And there's two things going on. The way that I write about them is particular to attention in the sense that By screening out things that you don't want to focus on and giving you the results you want, right? So”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, I mean, I think her Zuboff's argument is that Google is really the company that kind of foundationally creates. Absolutely.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson Ran for governor in a state that Trump won that's basically a 50 50 state. And, you know, he lost 52 to 40. He lost like he got his butt kicked. And there's a bunch of candidates, Carrie Lake in Arizona, who's lost two state wed races that were probably winnable. Blake Masters, who ran statewide, Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania, Herschel Walker, there are a bunch of people who have tried the same playbook that it's backfired for precisely the reasons I'm describing here, that like there is actually a trade-off. And for some reason, the two people who have pulled the trade-off off are Trump and now Musk. Those are really the two that I think have made it work.”
2025-01-23 · On with Kara Swisher · From Trump to TikTok: Chris Hayes on the Rise of Attention Capitalism · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT