YouSaid · the spoken record

Chris Paniewski

lines on the record
18
first
2025-09-18
most recent
2025-09-18
sittings or episodes
1
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podcast

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  1. “Awesome. Thank you so much, Chris. If you want to see all the startup basic series we've done, legal, accounting, marketing, AI, man, we've covered it all. This week in startups.com slash basics. And if you need a fantastic attorney, use the one I use. Wilson Cassini, WSGR.com. Thank you, Chris.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  2. “You know, it's really interesting about this. I think the audience from our dialogue is getting an idea of just how nuanced this is and what the lens that you can put your own behavior for your startup group. And maybe hopefully if you saw an opportunity, you could think about, well, what did Metacritic do? What did rotten tomatoes do? What are strategies for maybe contacting the rights holder and also putting yourself in the same position? I know many technologists who really feel strongly that they should be able to do whatever they want if it's on the open web. And then when somebody in China steals their IP, they get all bent out of shape. I encourage technologists to maybe think about that. How would you feel if your LLM was stolen, if your weights were stolen, if your code was stolen, that you actually built your product from and then somebody in another country or in ours, you know, just photocopied.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  3. “They were allowed to do it. People were pissed off. People were upset. Sorry, we allow for people to make their own derivative works or make their own creations based on their interpretation of what you said, right? This would be a canonical case, I guess, of fair use.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  4. “Give you an answer, I think, in some cases, and in other cases, make another transformative work. I think I have an analogy for us. I remember when Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes came out, they would create their own score. So they would read everybody else's review and they'd say, you know, I think Roger Ebert is, you know, he doesn't like to give five stars. He doesn't like to give a number, but based on my interpretation of his review, that's a 70. That's a 90. He really loves Indiana Jones Temple of Doom, but he's not a fan of the third one. So I'm going to put a score on it based on my analysis as a cinephile.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  5. “People are hiring humans To train LLMs in verticals. Now, they go, and they, this is a human and they're taking notes and they've read the wire cutter and they've read consumer reports in 20 other sites and they distill it all down into their own take on it and they feed that into an LLM directly. LLM in the clear, when it does that output or not?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  6. “Now, I'm going to throw you another curveball here. Maybe this one, I got the sandpaper in my waist and I put a little scratch on it. I forgot what they called that in the big leagues. Remember they were doing that for a while and they were scraping the famous case, one of the pictures would scratch the ball with a little sandpaper.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  7. “Now, let me throw you a curveball here, if I may, Chris The LLM got that information because somebody else made a summary page, a human, who said, I am debating consumer reports selection of the Android phone, you know, the latest Android phone from Samsung versus the latest iPhone. And I've reviewed consumer reports and wirecutter. And here is my meta-analysis of why I think they were right and wrong. So that's a transformative work done by a human. the LLM index that page Then gave me the information and never took it off the New York Times or Consumer Reports pages. Is the LLM in the clear now if this could all be proven?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  8. “Yeah, I mean, clearly it's an explanation point because I would be like a witness or an actual example of that occurring. And when you do these cases, you do have to show damages is my understanding, right? There has to be a party who has been damaged. And so you'd have to find customers to actually win the case. Am I correct, generally speaking?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  9. “And I was a subscriber to New York Times to do that. And then I was like, ah, you know, I really don't go to the New York Times for too much. And people summarize it, re-blog it all the time. I only need the headline. But Wirecutter, I kind of need. And one of my LLM subscriptions, I'm not going to call anybody out here, would just give me in a much quicker fastener. And I would say, tell me what the consensus choices are across different review sites for my next phone, my next laptop, my next TV. And it would be like wire credit says this. And consumer report says this. And I did not need to subscribe to those two services anymore. This would be a heck of a case, yeah?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  10. “I remember he did these Campbell soup cans, and that was a guy. Really interesting case. The one I'm also, I've struggled with myself is I'm a big fan of wire cutter. I don't know if you ever heard of that from the New York Times. I used it as my Bible. You know, if they say this is the consensus choice, that's my little hack, right? Okay, I'll just go with it.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  11. “This happened in the art world, if I remember correctly. Andy Warhol, Basciat, you know, they were doing very interesting collage and transformative work. And they too were able to navigate that minefield, yeah.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  12. “Interesting. I took that personally, you know, I've been called a monkey by many people, but I thought I should have gotten the right. You know, I had heard that story before, so I think I'm starting to build up a mental model here. If it's somebody else's IP and I do output no bueno without permission, if I had permission, hey, that's an opportunity. And this is what I always try to talk to my founders about is if there is an opportunity to build that and the original IP owner isn't building it, well, here's an idea. Build a proof of concept, build a deck, and go to them and say, I have a new tool. I have an idea. I was wondering if you might be interested in our company enabling your company to do this, either through a license or on your website. So if Jedi Me was a really good idea, well, maybe that could exist in the Disney Plus app and they don't have time to build it. So you could build it for them and create the characters and the artwork and say, hey, here, it's done. Can we do a revenue share? Can I sell it to you as a SaaS product? Yeah.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  13. “Because it would seem silly to say the paintbrush is the author of the Mona Lis A piece of wood with some horse hair on it. Now you get to the camera and you said, well, if my security camera took a picture and I wasn't involved in it and then I took a screen grab of it and I tried to submit it, I don't get that copyright, do I?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  14. “Interesting. So let's keep pulling the string here. And it's just so great that you're on the program to talk about this because, again, sitting here in September of 2025 when we recorded this, we are literally in inning number one of this issue legally. Now, if I said, hey, I have an idea for a weapon from the future. It's a lightsaber. It is six feet long. It has a hilt. It is powered by a Kyber crystal. And it's red if it's a Sith and it's blue if it's a certain type of Jedi and it's green if it's a good Jedi. And here's what it looks like. Make me a sketch of one. Now I've given it a super prompt and it's doing a little bit of a drawing that I could have given any artist to do that might make its way through the description at least the copyright office. Am I correct or am I trending towards being correct?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  15. “Oh my god, I didn't even think about that. So if I said make me a weapon that would be used in space in the science fiction future and some LLM said, you know what, swords exist. Let's make them laser swords. And I created the idea of a lightsaber. You said, hey, give me a name for it. And then I try to IP protect that. This is a totally unknown area, is it not?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  16. “A key part of fair use and a key part of copyright law is hey, if I made Star Wars, I'm George Lucas 1977 and we're sitting here now, you know, 50 years later, you know, trying to mitigate how does Star Wars work in the age of AI. It turns out, well, we had an analogy to this. DVDs came out at a certain point. VOD, video and demand came out. Merchandising came out. All kinds of new technologies came out and different opportunities for George Lucas to generate revenue from his IP. And it turns out the language models are no different. AI will be no different just because it's a new technology does not mean you get the right to take George Lucas's or now the Disney Corporation's opportunity correct, Chris?”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  17. “And I brought up the very evocative issue of Star Wars content. One thing you might want to do using a large language model out there is say, hey, make me into a Jedi Knight. Now, it's that legal or not. It turns out a lot of the LLMs have said, when you try to take IP from the Disney Corporation, which is one of the preeminent rights holders in the world who is also one of the preeminent defenders of their rights, some of the LLMs now, Chris, I don't know if you noticed, will not let you do that.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  18. “All right, everybody, welcome back to start basics. Why did I do this series? Because I get asked the same questions over and over again. And I like to help founders navigate complex issues, even the simple ones. Today we're going to talk about complex and a moving target with Chris Pajniewski, partner at Wilson Sinsini. You know, we talked, Chris in my first discussion with you about input and training data. Great. If you guys want to see that, go to this week in startups.com slash basic. Part two, output.”

    2025-09-18 · This Week in Startups · Who Owns the Output? AI Copyright & IP Explained w/ Chris Paniewski | Startup Legal Basics · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source