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Colin Camerer
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- 2024-11-14
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- 2024-11-14
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“So the idea that risk and fear are there to kind of protect you applies to them, like when you remove that, like one of the patients, SM, makes a lot of poor choices.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Generally, they're in disability because the amygdala damage is enough to make, they basically take too much risk in a lot of areas of life.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is the stimulus. Correct. Correct. And a lot has been known about because they've been studied. One of my colleagues, Ralph Adolf, has studied several of them for years. And they come back every so often and do a different kind of task.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But actually, we published a paper with two people who have brain damage and bilateral amygdala, which means neither part of the amygdala can compensate for the other. It's a very unusual disease. It comes from an Urbagvita disease, and they basically, the amygdala is kind of like calcified. So it's there, but it's like deep freeze.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Which is the Greek symbol that means the ratio of the disutility of loss to gain. And as you mentioned, two is sort of a, we think it's a little bit smaller, like 1.7, but it's comparable. Yeah, it's comparable. And it's not one, which would be the case in which you're not distinguishing loss and gain at all. They're just like one scale. So the evidence is pretty good. Some other fun facts about loss aversion, which is you might think that loss aversion is some kind of handicap.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's not out of left field. Right. You came to the right place. So in the meta analysis, we looked at hundreds of studies. Basically every study we could find using informatics. And nowadays you can really do this. It's like industrial phishing. You throw this net out and you get 4,000 studies, then you winnow it down to the ones that are really just all trying to measure the same thing so you can add them up. There was something like 370 estimates of lambda.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We live in Are hard to comprehend. The brain is mostly linearizing things. And if they're not linear or they're dramatically nonlinear, like pandemic compound interest, we can learn to overcome it, but we need these kind of external tools. It's almost like exoskeleton, you know, whether it's education, advisors, and so on.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly, exactly. So another way to think of it is institutions sometimes it's families, it's political advertisement. It might be fine print about fees in a financial advertisement. Those are all things that are kind of tricking or exploiting vulnerabilities in our basic ancestral biology. Now again, people are smart too. So there is adaptation and kind of plasticity. So over a lifetime, you might, or maybe in one MBA course. Even possibly a high school course, you might learn some principles of basic finance that will really help you avoid dumb mistakes, you know, like compound interest, really compound quickly. The caveman brain thinks compounding quickly, I have no idea what that means. My brain can't imagine that if I invest in the S&P $1,000 40 years ago, how much I'd have, you know, I can't compute that number. Right.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Prison This is not that. This is the obvious. The other person helps out. You want to help out too. It's the best response. So it's different structurally than the prisoner's dilemma.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And it makes them want to cooperate in a way that's risky but benefits the group. But we sometimes think of it, it overcomes their inhibition to be, well, I don't know if you're going to choose Stag and I don't know if you're going to show up.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And the other thing that was really nice in this paper was we also used ephMRI. So we had two groups of people administering AVP, one group was scanned and one was not scanned, which is just to see like to replicate do you get the same behavioral thing if they're not boom, boom, Under AVP, they are choosing stag. So it looks like the AVP is sort of promoting the stag choice.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so choosing a rabbit is choosing one and not helping your friend, both showing up for stack is better for the both of them. But they have to somehow coordinate that activity. And so what we found was when you give people this AVP, and it's a crossover design, which means sometimes they get AVP and sometimes they get a placebo because there's a well-known placebo effect where if they think maybe they got the AVP, it might subconsciously affect Behavior. So we always control for placebo effects, just like in drug trials, you know, the same thing, very routine. When you give them AVP, they're more likely to choose stag, which is the socially risky and beneficial thing. It's like it generates this willingness to join the group in a way that's going to help everybody if enough people join.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Elk or deer? Yeah, an elk or deer. The point of the stag is it's so big that one person can't catch themselves. One person has to spot and the other a shoot or something like that. Or they cannot show up in the morning at the appointed spot and just hunt for rabbits on their own. And so the structure of the game, when we do it with money or reward with animals, is you get one point if you just go for rabbit. If you both hunt for stag, you get two if you hunt for stag. But if you show up by yourself prepared to hunt for stag, you can't catch any, you get zero.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's because it's so automated. So the fact that it's actually grabs a lot of attention is because the automation is we've completely flipped back in the opposite situation. Let me tell you, urgon vasopressin study we did. So there's a game similar to prison dilemma, but not the same called the Stag Hunt game. And the idea is two people decide to show up in the morning and hunt for a stag. It's a very old-fashioned name from the Jean-Jacques Cousau in the 1600s.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is that what we're suggesting? Exact Below the Yeah, oh, absolutely. I mean, think about things like breathing. Breathing is so automatic that when we stop and do sort of breath work and try to think about it, like maybe seals might have a breathing exercise to calm down before a terrifying thing they have to take. It actually takes a lot of executive function to think about breathing because we never have to.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So when we studied, I'll say a little bit, it was argon and vasopressin. And so that's another hormone, which is similar to oxytocin, in that when animals are bonding in groups, this argon vasopressin sort of, you know, you'll get a surge and it shows that.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But there's a cautionary tale, which is me and some colleagues went back and looked at those carefully. And it seems that giving people artificial, giving people oxytocin for a modest dose and then seeing what happens an hour later, it improves trust a little bit, but it's scientifically very, very tricky. And some of the standard results, if you do the same exact experiment over again, you just don't always get the same result. So we don't know how sturdy oxytocin is.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Overlap? No, okay. No, exactly. So, oxytocin is sometimes called like an affiliation hormone. So for example, if you get a really pleasurable massage, you might feel a surge of oxytocin. When my wife was giving birth, they often to induce labor, they often give somebody synthetic oxytocin. And oxytocin is also produced after birth, and when the mom is first killing the baby and probably the dad, although maybe less, you know, it's this very pleasurable thing that makes you want to hug somebody and feel affiliated as this sort of bio term. So there's a bunch of studies on oxidosis suggesting that improve trust.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Correct Exactly. So LDOPA is basically administered to Parkinson's patients. Have a degradation of dopamine And so, to kind of ramp them up to normal levels, LDOPA is often used in treatment.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So pharmacology is drugs. But some of those, for example, L dopa will actually ramp up dopamine levels. And you can see if some interesting things happen.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, so actually, that's a very good question, Barry. Neuroeconomics uses a lot of different methods. The FMRI is sort of like the movie star and a family with four sisters, you know, the glamorous one that everyone pays attention to but is actually high maintenance. But all the other siblings are kind of contributing in some interesting way. So pharmacology is something people are really interested in.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And Together Yes. Yeah, it was quite a charming, and I think sensible award for that reason. And the journalist said, like, well, one person says A is true and one says A is not always true. Like, how could you give that award? The answer is they both made a lot of progress in different ways.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Hostility about it, and then we gradually, one thing about Chicago and the economics profession in general is data do win arguments. So ideology will often persist. Like for gene pharma, for example, he'll always be skeptical about behavioral finance for his own reasons. Their ideas, but eventually data win arguments. And there were just so many anomalies and ways in which investors were making mistakes. And it wasn't just small investors who were refinancing their mortgage mistakenly. Some of these implicit things may be very big venture capitalists joked about how, well, you know, I think of Mark Zuckerberg and a hoodie, and that's kind of my template for a good founder to invest tens of millions of dollars. That's not a sophisticated, that's not home economicus. That's home economics.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Oh, yeah. It was, you know, people said things like, I think, you know, I'm worried you might be ruining your career because you switched out of finance. And, well, what it was was there was a series of critical questions which were, but if people make all these mistakes, couldn't someone profit from, you know, arbitrage or from selling them crappy goods like, well, it seems like that may happen, you know. Or if people make these mistakes, don't they learn over time not to make mistakes? That may also happen. It may be that there's a suckerborn every minute, but there's a generational process. And markets are always filled with some combination of new investors or sovereign funds of people who aren't very savvy about markets or something like that. So early in the history of behavioral economics, there was really a lot of...”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, exactly. And also, this isn't something we've carefully researched, but I think it's a good speculation for your audience, which is when I was going to Chicago in the late 70s, all of my graduate student friends were also kind of critics of nobody liked Behavioral Economics at that time. Oh, really?”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And the irrational part is, you know, when it's too high, paying a high price for something in a crashes fast. So the rational is really in there, literally. But yeah, and also when I present this in academic summers and later today, I'm meeting some Caltech people. We talk about this famous saying from Warren Buffett, I believe, when people are afraid, be greedy, when people are greedy, be afraid. And this brain area is like insulin is similar to fear and greed and nuclear succumbs. It's about as close as you're going to get to brain areas matching what Warren Buffett had to say, which was such a wise thought.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Oh, no, It may be, you know, it was kind of like a combination with some apocryphal. We're not sure exactly who said it first, but certainly there was a kind of meeting of the minds that this was a useful. And in fact, we used the phrase in our paper, but we didn't put it in the title. It just seemed a little too unscientific. It's okay for USA Today or something, but this is the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, you know. But we think of this nucleus that Cummins activity. That's the measure of an irrational exuberance.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, just very. Of gains That's a great question. I'll say a little tiny bit more about that. You mentioned the term irrational exuberance, which was coined, as I recall, by Bob Schiller in his book about”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Take my chips off the table. Now, number one, we can't tell with exquisite precision, you can sort of see these groups. And we're only looking at this ex post. So, I think it's conceivable but challenging to do this in real time. You know, so there's you're watching the market unfold, you're doing real time FMRI measurement, that can be done. And it's like, okay, traders 7, 9, and 11, we think they're probably going to sell. They're the skeptics. They're the bulls. And 14, 17, and 21, they're nukes that come as a activity seems they're really all in. They're going to be forming the bubble and so on and so on. I mean, we're a few steps away from being able to do it, but we see these as what we call proofs of concept. It can be done. It may take a few million dollars if any donors are listening. But it makes perfect...”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Financial uncertainty insula. And so we think of the insula as the early warning signal that there's going to be a crash. And the other interesting brain region is nucleus occumins, which is basically a reward center in what's called stratum part of basoganglia in the very center of the brain. And that's active in the people who are fueling the bubble. Like when the bubbles forming, the people who have the highest nucleus incumbents activity by the most.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Self-awareness. Exactly. So perception is the outside world. Intraception is the brain's, like the body's ambassadorship to the brain, you know, knowing if I'm nervous. And it's often activated by, particularly by negative emotions. So if you see something disgusting, insula, if you choke a person a little bit or you cut off the oxygen and not so it's dangerous, but just to make them uncomfortable, insula.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Anyway, yeah, you know what I mean? So it turns out the people who are more likely to sell when the price is at 60 and we know it's going to crash, but we're not sure when. Have heightened activity and insulo cortex. Which is another region that's involved in emotion and interoception. So interoception means.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly, just like in Ashmarkets, right? Bubbles are only shown in hindsight. Gene Falmer has written a lot about this. That's one reason you're skeptical that we should even talk about bubbles as a scientific phenomenon. Okay.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. And so put yourselves in the mindset of somebody who in period 31, the price is 60. And you kind of know that in period 50, 19 periods from now, it's going to be 14. Well, unless you think it's going to go up to 75, right. Right. So it's true. And in fact, that's very helpful for me. So what we found from the brain was that there was two interesting signals. I'll start with the more interesting one. The other one's a little more obvious. The interesting signal is people who sold before the bubble crash, which was the smart thing to do. And again, the bubble crash is not announced. It's something you only see a stork looking back.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Typically, the price starts around 14 and goes up to maybe 20 or 30 and then crashes. And then in order to bring the experiments to a close, we have them trade for 50 periods or 30 periods. And at the end, they were able to cash the SS out at 14.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“People's hands, you know, reflecting nervousness. It looks like we can predict a little, but not great. That's a high mountain to climb. What we found in our first FMRI study about bubbles was people trade in artificial asset, so we know the fundamental value of the asset, which we never know in natural markets, and that the price is completely what they agree upon. So typically what happens is the fundamental value is a number that we control. Which happens to be 14 because the value of the asset comes from the fact that if you hold at the end of a period of trading, you get a dividend. Or you can invest currency in a risk free bonds. And so the tradeoff between the risk free earnings and the value of the dividends establishes an equilibrium price. It's a very simple equation. Sure.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think it's useful to think about, say, young naive investors, or they may be young, but people who have less knowledge about the markets and people who spend a lot more time thinking about estimating fundamentals, reading 10Ks, having years of trading experience. Because another important fact, which we try to keep track of in behavioral economics, is that A lot of decisions and structures people have to make are not things that we're necessarily evolved to be particularly good at, but people are also extremely good at learning and able to collect memories and distill things into knowledge. So let me turn to their concept of price bubbles because I think that's a useful one. So we have a couple of one FMRI study on price bubbles, and we have some new stuff that includes skin conductance measurement to see if, you know, can you kind of predict when it crashes coming from?”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What are you looking at on this computer screen? You know, there's a 4x4 matrix of numbers, and I'm trying to think of what you're going to do. There's a lot to look at. And if you ask people for a self-report, they're not going to tell you exactly what their eyes are doing the whole time. They're probably looking at 42 different things, sometimes very quickly, sometimes they're going back and looking again and again and again. They just don't have conscious access to that process the way that the eye tracking does.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And it might be hard to see with the naked eye, but the machines we use can definitely see it. That would be a big jump, you know, a big tell. And so we're able to use pupil dilation and eye tracking to judge things like cognitive difficulty. A lot of the early studies actually were used in game theory because in game theory, the assumption is if I might want to see what my opponents payoff is in order to decide what they're going to do. And if you ask people,”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is you're having a hard time, and so I think if you trained yourself and maybe depending on the color of the eyes, you might be able to tell like a poker player might be able to train themselves with a, to notice pupil dilation. But just in case, that's why poker players often will wear glasses, sunglasses, yeah. There's sunglasses, right? Because the idea is if you look at your cards and you have two aces, your pupil will dilate.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, so actually, the eye trackers we use, which are commercially made for science basically, and sometimes for clinical use, they use cameras to look at where the eye is looking. They sync that up with where on the computer screen you're looking. And so besides the location of where the eyes are looking, you also measure pupil dilation. And people dilation turns out to be the eyes of the winner to the soul. So the peoples actually generate a lot of information, although it's crude. What the people dilation is telling you is about cognitive difficulty. Am I having a hard time thinking about this and arousal, which again may be negative or positive? It's like pupil is your”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Which basically means not just looking once, but going back and forth, you know, it's the rapid brain equivalent on a one or two second basis of, say, a couple who's shopping for a house going to look at a second time and a third time, you know, the repeated looking.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There's sort of two interesting markers. Number one, it's not that big of a tell. So if we try to predict whether they're going to actually buy something, we might get, say, 42% right. And with the eye tracking data, it might get up to like 54. Know so as I academics, we think that's kind of a modest effect size. If you're running a business and you want a 2% lift and purchase, maybe a billion dollars, right? So sometimes we're a little cautious as academics about is this a big deal or not? Whereas some of these things, the same in the world of nudges and so on, sometimes a small half percent increase in get out the vote. If we could do that scientifically, may well decide an election. Anyway, so the lift is not that big. But the two tells are basically looking at the price, and the other is refixation.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. It's like the publicist for very guilty person, or Mike Gazana get calls it the interpreter. So, the interpreter says, I don't really know why. So that's an example of where we know what the brain saw and why the wave occurred, but the left part of the brain doesn't know”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, for example, if someone sensory systems are contralateral, so the right side of the brain sees the left side of a picture, left side sees the right side. So suppose I show you on the left of a picture. A picture of a friend of yours. And I asked the person, if you see this friend of yours, what gesture might you do or what might you, if you see a friend here as opposed to a house or a shovel, what would you do? And the person waves their hand. And then you ask them, why did you wave your hand? Now the left side of the brain has to answer the question because that's the language area. But the left side doesn't know that the right side saw a friend and that's why they waved. So the left side makes stuff up”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Correct, exactly. So there are these very localized, pretty well understood aphasias that have to do with local damage. So there's often what we call plasticity where another part of the brain will take over. So if you had some damage as a young child, it might be that the aphasia, another part of the brain takes over that function. But if it happens later in life, not so. Anyway, so language is somewhat specialized to left region.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Your A. Exactly. So, for example, so if you have a breakdown of corpus callosum, the right and left aren't really communicating. Despite the right brain, left brain, most modern neuroscientists don't think there's that much specialization. There's some interesting kinds. But one kind that's pretty rugged is language is mostly in the left brain and regions called Broca's area, Vernici's area. And we know that because when you have specialized damage in that area, you can see people start to talk differently. Like they can remember, they can't remember words, but the aphagia. I remember reading a reading.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, so the split brain was actually first explored by Roger Sperry at Caltech actually and his student Mike Azanaga made a big chunk of career over out of it. And so the split brain patients means they don't have much communication between left and right hemispheres. Corpus.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Prefrontal cortex would be. And there's a lot of sensory processing that's going on pre-conscious or like before we could say motion to something or use words to explain what's going on. I think it's genuinely hard to pin down a number. If I read, for example, it's 90% subconscious and 10% conscious. I don't know if that's right and it may vary across life cycle. So, you know, we usually reluctant to pin down a number. I think it's fair to say that there's a lot of things that are going on we usually say implicitly That or not people aren't explicitly aware of enough to make it very interesting.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In 30 milliseconds, not happiness in the same way. So the brain knows, it's just that it doesn't get to the publicist desk to good consciousness.”
2024-11-14 · Masters in Business · Advancing Behavioral Economics with Colin Camerer · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source