YouSaid · the spoken record

Connie Chan

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2019-11-27
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2019-11-27
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  1. Thank you, and thank you to everyone for listening. Also, thank you to our incredible, amazing team here. I want to thank especially our audio engineers, Seven Morris and Tommy Heron, and the first editor I hired, Hannah Tidnam, who's now been here for three years, and now Amelia and the rest of our team who've joined DOS, Lauren, and Zorin, who are starting to podcast. And thank you to Margaret, especially thank you to Kim who reached out and hired me and also was funny. She actually told me she had never thought I would be into podcasting. And I was like, me, neither, but I'm so grateful to the firm, frankly. It's a miracle that they would be so supportive of us doing this. And I'm so thankful for that.

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  2. I guess maybe it's very similar because you're going back to scratch again in some ways. And that's how you build that type of a network. Also, we will be verticalizing some of the channels so that people can subscribe to feeds. And so we're going to have a separate channel initially for like A6 and Z bio. And that's great because an audience can self-select. And if people want to talk about journal articles without people who don't want to hear about crypto policy, you don't have to mix those. And this is great because this is, to me, the future of media. I'm a big believer in Kevin Kelly's 1,000 true fans and then going from there initially when I started thinking of mapping out the territory podcast. I literally thought about it as mapping like sales territory. And so I want to conquer the open source community. I want to conquer Node.js. Let me bring someone on from there. And I can literally mapped it out geographically and community-wise to kind of grow and aggregate that.

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  3. Multiple shows. I want to try different types of shows, but you also don't want to abandon your audiences, so I don't want to arbitrarily start a show. And then if we only have like a few episodes, not, you know, keep that feed, which is why some of these shows are starting off as series. And then we can break it out into its own show and its own feed.

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  4. Everyone knows analytics for podcasts have been very, very broken and very difficult because the industry has not standardized. And what's great is that Simplecast has been going through the process of IAB certification. For me, the wish list has always been completion. Like where do people drop off? I went chartbeat like analytics for things. I want to know about audience overlap between shows. I want to know where people are more engaged. Are there parts where they're repeating and trying to listen again? Like there's so many million things I want to know. Well, it's also great is Amelia hired and I actually credit to Andrew on this because he had suggested as part of the hiring plan he suggested we hire a growth and audience development person in addition to the editors and I'm really glad he did because Amelia hired a wonderful growth, an audience development person for us Jared and he is very much thinking about how to bring the promotion side

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  5. So, this is my biggest, most invisible partner in crime, who I want to give a shout out to is our sound engineer, Seven Morris. I brought him in. And I was like, please fix our sound. People keep complaining. I cannot take no for an answer. You need to tell me what's wrong and I want it fixed. I'm just like, there surely is a solution. It was the funniest thing because what he did was he basically removed the mixer. He's like, you guys don't need this. That's what people use for live events. You're editing. You want individual tracks. You should be plugging directly into the recorder, not having a mixer in between. So that's what we did. Our equipment is not that expensive. I give a lot of startups advice on how to do this stuff. And the list of equipment, it's all under $1,000. We have sound panels and acoustic stuff, but not really. We use really standard equipment. I think the primary thing in the tech stack is that we're now on Simplecast, which is our hosting platform. I think of them as like the stripe of podcasting because they have an API model and we're getting a lot of features in that and particularly going to be more important as we expand to more and more shows. The other thing is that

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  6. One of the negative legacies of podcasting tools is that a lot of them were grounded in the music world versus made natively for podcasting, which is why like descript and other tools came about. Basically, we got rid of the mixer and then our sound improved drastically because we could manipulate more because you record it.

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  7. Ah, you're right. Well, I think the job of the moderator for me is to be a shepherd for the audience, and that means including stitching together statements, helping the listeners follow along with the arc, summarizing and explaining. But to the entertainment part, I agree with you. I do believe the future of podcasting is merging with entertainment, and that is going to be interesting to see

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  8. And in the beginning, I was like, ugh, don't listen. But now, and we've talked about your shares and you mind share, people need to listen to podcasts with kids in the car. And by the way, the other trend I think is super interesting about podcasting is these new wave of shows just for kids. It's one of my favorite things.

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  9. Did and frankly, the reason I wanted to keep it is because I believe when women, we're asked to conform to so many things, no uptalk, no this, no that. There's so many different things. And I'm just like, you know what? I want to be me, raw and real. But here's why I did finally decide very recently to stop cussing on those shows. And no, I don't bleep it out, but funnily enough on the podcast you and I did with Nick Quabb, a podcast about podcasting. Someone on Twitter totally teased me. They're like, I think it's hilarious that you bleeped out the name of a company to protect their confidentiality, but you didn't bleep out your F-bomb. So now I edit it out. So it's not because there are kids in the car.

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  10. Funny because I felt a lot of tension about it. I remember I once asked Ben and Margaret about it because I was like, you guys think it's bad that I cuss? Should I stop? And Ben was like, entrepreneurship is hard. It's a struggle. It's meant to be hard. And then I started getting folks on Twitter, some being very helpful and some being judgmental. You know, we don't think you should cuss. You're such a beautiful voice and you sound so nice. Is it necessary?

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  11. The podcast that made me cry, there's actually been two or three. So one was with Leila Jana of Samasource. They were empowering people around the world with micro work. They found a way for a woman who previously had no spending money to be able to for the first time in her life buy makeup. And that sounds so frivolous, but that made me, it completely, I started crying. I edited it out, but that was one of the episodes that made me cry. Another one that made me cry recently was Ben and Shaka when they interviewed Deshaun and Shari about Maven. And there was a moment that just brought me to tears. And you should listen to that episode, but that was also another one of the episodes that made me cry.

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  12. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I have seen you edit and work magic. Like even our WeChat piece that we did years ago, like you made that into a completely different thing. I've seen you edit ever since, and it's really funny because once you're in the zone, like one time I was watching you on Google Docs edit and I really felt like I was watching a painter paint. I just saw these like sentences moving around and it was like watching a paintbrush.

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  13. I think it did. People didn't really think it'd be so big. But like I said, we had to earn those listeners because it's not like you have brand and they come. It's that you have the guest and then they listen and it gets better. And this is where the editing comes in.

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  14. I love that they feel like they know me because I'm in their ear, but there's a huge asymmetry there. But anyway, it's amazing and powerful and moving to see your work in action. And I'm so grateful to our fans and to Andrewsen Horowitz for letting podcasts got off the ground. You know, Dixon and Kim and Michael started it. But after a while, I don't think really people paid attention to it. Like I think Mark told me about a year and a half in that he thinks it's...

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  15. In fact, people found me proactively, which is crazy to me because I thought the goal of the host, because this is what editors do, editors do tremendous work. The shaping editors do tremendous work to shape a piece. They practically co-write them. But I did not include myself on the byline because I thought it was my job to be invisible as the host and the moderator. And I always view myself as a shepherd for the audience. That is my job. Although it's funny because over the years, then people started finding me. I eventually added my name on the byline. It's incredible when people come up to you because frankly, when you're sitting in a room, and this is what I love about podcasting, is that this interesting people think?

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  16. It goes back to feeling that sort of vulnerability of being a person who wants to be behind the scenes. I don't know if you know this, but my first two years, I didn't even put my name on the byline of the podcast.

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  17. All the time, not only pitch books, we get at least five to ten emails a week that are just pitching us. Then, of course, people book authors going on podcasts became a thing because it actually moves book sales. By the way, one author told me that he came on our show and we moved a thousand books in like a few days. Because it's a very self-selected audience that's listening and very motivated and there's no better way. But we try to break the script for book podcasts. And one of my rules is, again, going back to editorial principles of differentiation is if you have someone like Yuval Harari who's been doing the circuit and he's like on every major podcast show and he's a really well read author and the person who put him on is my friend Rimjim Day. She's one of the people who took a very early bet on us.

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  18. In terms of thinking about the audience, there was an incredibly strong brand that Mark and Ben and Margot built as a base and a foundation, for sure. And the network is a thing that continually reinforces it. But initially, I had to beg my contacts, people I edited, people in the book publishing industry to get them on the podcast because A, they didn't really know A6 and Z. B, it was a fledgling nascent podcast. It hadn't had like an established presence. And so I convinced one or two of the key publicists and book publishers because I ran their excerpts in my section. I then got the, once I got one big name author in, then the rest started following. And then I started getting pitched.

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  19. So one of my most favorite moments in stories about the podcast is that a senator, a U.S. senator, was listening to the episode, and this is a testament to the network, and they come across our content, and the whole thing kind of reinforces like a flywheel. And he heard the episode. It was about health data. And he literally had his staffer reach out to us. And the staffer quoted his line to us, like what he said. And he's like, I can't believe this idea is not already being done already. I want to propose it in the upcoming session as legislation. Can you please put me in touch with that founder?

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  20. To me is a bar of success right there. So actually, I describe it as the podcast as influencing the influencers. And so to me, when media outlets reporters say like, oh, I listened to that episode, I love that because they may not write it up, but it informs their thinking. One of my big principles is that we need to either provide a framework for how to think about something, if not an answer, or tease apart versus reality and think about how big tech trends like VR, AR, whatever the topic is, may it play out concretely, then it informs the influencers.

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  21. Things like I mentioned non derivative experts, true to the maker, the culture of adding a very fresh and differentiated take. We don't want to say what everyone else is saying, the art of timing. Does this meet the bar? Is this really adding value to the conversation? Is it signal versus noise? Is it more of the same? Is it spinning forward? I use that phrase all the time. Spin it forward, spin it forward, spin it forward. How do we do it at the same time? How do we make it concrete? Because our audience is not just people like big fortune 500 companies thinking about the future of tech or startups.

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  22. Really? See, it's like instinct. So, this goes back to that whole view of instinct. But the reality is that instinct is trained by experience. But what I find is taste is very difficult to train. And you can't just say to someone, well, you'll know it when you hear it. That's not a good enough answer. So it's frankly not helpful.

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  23. Well, this is what I'm struggling with, and frankly, I read Ben's book recently, and it's beautiful, by the way, and how do I think about doing this culturally and thinking about it? This is the exact challenge because, well, I learned podcasts by myself. Like everyone can do it. And I'm realizing that the way we do things is quite things that I take for granted as implicit are not that explicit or they're very tacit things or mindsets that are really unique and foreign. So to answer that question, the answer you can't use when you're scaling is well, I'll know it when I know it. Like, you know, the line from Justice Potter Stewart about porn, he said, I'll know it when I see it.

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  24. And when you have a vision for, of course, the big podcast, but also each particular episode, are you editing until it hits that vision? Oh, for an individual episode. Yeah, like, how do you even know when to stop editing?

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  25. Sometimes, yes, but the reality is that I actually think you should have more focus, and I have a very specific focus in the strategy for the existing Z podcast. And what I believe and where it's going. So I have a very particular vision for that

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  26. Music in the middle? So, not music, kind of like an intermission almost, like a pause point that the listener would know. Hey, if you want to take a break, this is a good spot. My thesis at the time was that people on campus, some kids on campus at Stanford told me they were listening to it while walking a class and they don't want to listen to a long episode because the commitment was so big. So I was like, well, what if it's a long episode? But I segment it for them, like the way you have chapter turns. That didn't really work because then I realized very fast from other people like, uh, duh, I don't need that. My app holds my spot, so it doesn't really matter. So it's kind of orchestrated and contrived. So that didn't really work, although that might come back because as with all experiments, sometimes it's a matter of time.

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  27. Oh, that's a good question. So very early on, Michael Copeland recorded a conversation with four kids from a youth and tech conference, and he told me about the footage and how complicated it was. And I was like, why don't you make it into a narrative where you narrate it? And he did a beautiful job of turning it into sort of an audio narrative story. So I like to do that. And it's not that it didn't work. It's just that we haven't invested in it because we were so building one style. So I'd like to do more of that, experiments that didn't work. So back to the question you asked me about the ideal length. So I thought, well, what if I experimented with interstitials where we could segment an episode?

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  28. Okay, so there's a blending of as you talk about, you wrote about this in your knowable post, that you get this found time with audio. One of the things that I'm interested in is that if the blinds and definitions of podcasting is blurring, and you really talk about this more than anyone, Connie, so I feel like I'm preaching to the choir here, but the idea that audiobooks and podcasts and educational content all kind of blurs together, for that same reason, why wouldn't people listen to blog posts in podcast forum or email newsletters in podcast forum? So I asked some of the other partners to read out loud their blog posts on air. I'll probably read a couple and I do want to experiment more with us doing more content in the audio form in that way. There's already tools like Autumn out there and media outlets, but just more like a voiced way and not so manual. There's like a new set of tools coming about in that.

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  29. In general, in podcasting, I am fascinated by audio fiction. That's like a really interesting and important trend. However, I cannot for the life of me think about what our version of audio fiction would be. So maybe I'll just maybe do something personally. So who knows? At some point, I can experiment with that. I'm still waiting for your.

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  30. Totally. I had a moment of emotional where I got a little teary eyed because I was solo for a long time. First it was me and Michael. Then I was solo for a long time. Then I hired Hannah and then it was me and her. And then about almost a year ago I hired Amelia to be our managing editor. And she's growing the team so that we can scale this. And I had proposed that we hire an editor for everyone.

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  31. So, for Ben's new show, it's Ben Porowitz and Shaka Sengor. They co host the show called Hustling Tech, which is guides to technology for hustlers. But what it really means, it's really helping people use technology to help themselves, which is an amazing concept. Basically, for that show, I did add music and it was interesting because I didn't want stock music. And so I asked Chris Lyons, you know, who runs our cultural leadership fund, but I didn't even know he'd put his own sample in there. He sent me like six tracks, including all these stock things that had a more hip-hop sound to it. And it turns out the one we all liked happened to be his personal. That's so cool. I was so excited. But it sets a tone for the show. And I do want that. The reason we haven't been able to do it though is because licensing for songs is very complex. It's not just copyright. It's like layers and layers of record. So music is

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  32. So on the sound effects and music, we tried, so Hannah did a great episode for Halloween a few years ago where she had sound effects for the person who was talking about the why behind the weird. I would like us to have music on our show. As long as it doesn't come off as like corporate overproduced slick, because that's not our aesthetic at all. However, I do think we need that and it adds more dimensionality.

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  33. And people promote podcasts through video, you know, the whole definition of what is a podcast is blurring Tom Webster of Edison Research was sharing how for many young people, especially those that are streaming, whether on video or audio and Spotify, they don't know the difference between whether it's on video or not. And so when people say subscribe in your favorite app, it could be YouTube.

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  34. Oh my god, that's such a good point. Well, you and I did a podcast on a podcast about podcasting with Nick Quawa. People should listen to an episode if they want to hear our thoughts on the trends because we did talk about binge watching and other things back on the timing thing. I do believe editorially, and especially for written content and this thing that I dubbed the McCluskey curve after Mark McCluskey, my former colleague got wired. He's now at Sports Illustrated, I believe. But anyway, he always talks about how you add value. And I say it's when you're offering something new or differentiated or leading early in the cycle, or you do it in the end of a news and discussion cycle where it's after it's very noisy and you have a very fresh or differentiated take and kind of being in the middle of all the noise is like the worst position to be in in terms of value and for the timing of it. So that's like literally my philosophy. One thing I didn't mention in the cycle because someone asked about the cycle from ideas to publishing that a big focus for us is around more promotion and that sort of the whole cycle of things. And so one of the experiments I had wanted us to do was to start doing audio.

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  35. That they're actually listening to it is very little. I think that the evolution of social podcasting, which I know you were interested in as well, it's still too early. So technically podcasts have what I call quote slow burn morality. They don't just go viral overnight. It takes about a week, like the first wave of listens is in that first week, and then you kind of see it grow from there.

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  36. Funnily, that's another area where people have a lot of theories. And when I first joined someone from the outside, said to me, you should be exactly every Friday at 3 p.m. There's all kinds of theories around this, and that's all wonderful. Here's the three things I learned. The best content will always win. Time of day, all the other stuff aside, as you know, I am a master of timing things. This is how I made my section success and writing the specific timing for Zeitgeist and virality. But for podcasts, there is no such thing. So someone asked on Twitter about the tools for creators and distributors of podcasts for people seeking to start their own podcast because not everyone is a big brand like this is actually substack, which people think of as a newsletter-only tool. It's really about connecting writers and people with their audiences. So if people are seeking a place to both host and distribute, what better place than within the email ecosystem? Because you really own your audience when you own that. Here's the thing. People may talk about a podcast on social. Like you'll see a ton of people talking about a certain episode, but the reality.

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  37. Well, first of all, I've not gone into 16 minutes. Sometimes it's like 17, sometimes it's 19. I try to only have it below 20. A couple of times I've abused it. So for the first episode, I tried doing it where everyone just did one full take a few times. And then what I found was, this is actually true for you in particular. You said different things on each take. And I was like, oh my God, what she said there was so good. And what she said the other take was also really good. So I use the editing to then seam together the best parts of what you said. And if you again think about insights per minute and the fact that you have only this many minutes, how do you add value for the listener? You want the highest insight per minute, hence the editing. So yes, it's now a more highly edited show and I'm kicking myself for it because it takes a lot of time. It's a lot of work and it's freaking aiming to be a weekly view show. So I'm pretty burnt out.

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  38. It's a reported model. Third party experts, which is great. But why aren't we doing a first person where people who know this industry are commenting on it directly and do that way? So I was like, I want to do a new show. And news podcasting is actually a growing trend. And then why don't we combine it with short form? So then I thought, let's do it for 16 minutes because Andrews and Horowitz, A16Z, 16, why not? So it had 16 minutes.

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  39. No, we don't aim for a time. It seems like the sweet spot is somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes. My philosophy about time and length, and this is so strong both for written and spoken content, is I think discussions about length are so arbitrary. Religious debate, it should be as long as it needs to be. So if it's gratuitously long, cut it. If it needs to be longer because we're going in depth, then it's so interesting. Why would we cut that arbitrarily? But this is the caveat to that. The payoff and the insight per minute has to be proportional to the length. So if the person is listening for a long time, there's not enough payoff, that's a complete waste of their time. They're never going to trust you. You destroy that trust. You lose them as a fan. So that's the first thing. The second thing to your question about the ideal length, I do believe that short form podcasting is a really important form. That's one of the trends in the space. And I had a moment kind of an insight was I had this realization that, gosh, all these other people are doing news shows like the New York Times Daily and Vox today explained.

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  40. Yep, this is so funny because what I found when I asked people what's your ideal link for a podcast, guess what? The answer was exactly proportional to their commute or workout time. So if they have commute was 15 minutes, that's what they thought was a perfect length. If there was 45, that was great

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  41. Chemistry, but great content, you can work with that by rearranging the order because then you keep people hooked by the flow. If you have wonderful chemistry and energy but very little substance, you can shorten it. So you have the energy but reduce the length because the payoff is so low. So basically what I'm saying is you can use one of these five levers and manipulate them to get more or less dial it down or up or down to get what you need. And of course, there's only so much you can do. But what's really cool is DScript has a company called Libird and they are doing synthetic audios.

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  42. Oh my God, I say JIF, not GIF, which is what he says. Don't even get me started on that. But you guys listen to that episode if you want to eavesdrop on that fight. But I kept it because it conveyed a certain chemistry. So to answer your question, you have these five levers and the job of the editor is to take the material they're given with, whether fully all over the place.

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  43. It was about six months in, and we did a podcast about his career and the editing side, I put his story at the end because I don't know if people know him that well. So we started with his advice for founders. So that was like one of the arc decisions I made. Because by the way, the fifth variable is arc or narrative flow. And anyway, we had such chemistry because we had this like fight in the middle of the episode about how to pronounce jiff or gif.

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  44. I don't think having a premeeting helps with that chemistry. So I think a great episode for this maybe as an example would be me and David Yulovic when we did a podcast about what time is it. And he has a fun chemistry. Two of us are just very first joined.

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  45. Not really. You can do other things, though, because what I find with charismatic speakers is that they often also talk in platitudes. And so one of the things that I tell our editors is you actually don't want to be efficient with the words. You want to cut the platitude statement and then keep the specific wonky statement so then they don't come off as like BS. And then the fourth one is chemistry, which is the interaction of the guests all in the room.

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  46. Well, not really. I mean, you can actually do some manipulations like raise a voice a little to make someone not sound so flat, but you don't want to distort the voice. The third thing is charisma. Sorry, that's a charisma of the speaker. So that's not just their level of energy for how they talk, but their sort of charismatic way of drawing people to their ideas.

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  47. Required then as well. It means it's not unidimensional, which I mentioned, it has multiple layers. And I describe that for every podcast. There's like five dimensions or five levers even that you can use. So one is obviously the content itself, like what the substance of what people are saying. One is the energy of the individual speaker, their tone, their excitement, do they sound flat?

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  48. Yeah, so I guess the number one thing I would say is the biggest difference between text and audio is that audio is a living breathing organism. So every change you make induces a new interaction effect. It's like you're adding a new variable. And so every time you decide, like in this cut, I'm going to do this. When you listen to your next cut, it messes something else up, which is why tools like descript are so important because they shortened the time between what I call the design and manufacturing phase of designing something like a semiconductor chip. The ability to have that sort of iterative feedback loop is critical, which is why all the new editors are getting trained on descript

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  49. Another sentence where I'm quiet. That's exactly it. So that's why it's kind of a dangerous method, which is why the tool descript is a really interesting one because they actually democratize the process. So to me, the first round is about seeing the global arc. The second round is about listening to it and really seeing how it truly works and flows. And the third round is really about sort of polishing it and making sure it just has this ease of listening.

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  50. Great question. One of the questions people had on Twitter was about the technology stack we use. So a couple of things on this. So I'm embarrassed to say that the way I edit podcasts is by starting with a transcript because I'm a WordPerson and do like a rough paper cut. And I actually do this without listening to the podcast. After the paper cut, it's a technical audio editor turns it into a first cut. And the reason I do it this way is because I want to see the whole shape of the narrative without being distracted by the sound. The problem with that approach is that when you see on a text as unidimensional and flat, whereas in voice, it's much more multidimensional. There's multiple factors.

    2019-11-27 · a16z Podcast · How We Podcast · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source