YouSaid · the spoken record

Dana Gioia

lines on the record: 91
first: 2021-04-07
most recent: 2021-04-07
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“I think my wife just rolls her eyes because if there's a WC Fields movie on, I'll watch it till the end. I mean, what's the one? It's a gift where he's trying to sleep on the balcony and the salesman goes, is Carl Lafong here, capital L, small E, capital F, small O, small N, small G. And WC Fields milks that thing for about five minutes, and it's wonderful. But I didn't understand when I was young that both Laurel and Hardy and WC fields, the fundamental comic idea under them is how thwarted we are getting through the ordinary business of our day. You know, when I was young, I just saw the jokes, the slapdash elements of it. But now I understand there's a kind of existential humor under this where W. S. Fields can't get a cup of coffee without trouble, can't take a nap without trouble.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They certainly were when I was a kid. In fact, I still rather, you know, I'll watch 15, 20 minutes of the Three Stooges every time I can. But I prefer Buster Keaton and Laurel and Hardy.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, you know, this is where I'm from. I'm one of these, you know, I'm the last Jew to leave Nazi Germany. This is my home. This is where I know every tree. I know every bird where I'm part of the history of it. And so it's still a wonderful place to live. I mean, don't get me wrong, but the detrimental aspects of California economically, culturally, educationally have been so extreme in the last 15, 20 years. It's heartbreaking for people here.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's become a different kind of artist, and I think that you, if you love an artist, you are interested in everything they do. But I don't think that that later work is the entry point into Brian Wilson versus his transformation of the popular song and his creation of a kind of genre. Also, he did as much as any artist in terms of creating a vision of California, which is to say a vision of California as the American dream. This is what the great historian Kevin Starr did in a seven-volume history of California, explaining that. And I asked Kevin why he never did the last volume, because he ends in early 60s, and he says he didn't have the heart to have the dream fall apart, which as a Californian, I guarantee you has happened, alas.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, but anything that reflects life, I mean, you know, there's a Latin phrase which is et in Arcadio Ego, even in Eden, in paradise, in Arcadia, I am, which means death. So these Renaissance painters would do these beautiful landscapes, but put a little skull under a bush somewhere that you could see. And so I think that all great happy art as an undercut of sadness. And any artist has to, in a sense, reconcile the sorrows, the sadness of it. Now, in Brian Wilson's case, that becomes an increasing theme. And I think eventually a kind of paralyzing theme for him, quite literally.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Pretty good for what he did. The Wilson family is from my hometown of Hawthorne, and in fact my uncle Giacomo many years ago was called in for a carpentry assignment that he thought was ridiculous. He came and he said, I had the stupidest thing I've ever seen today. This guy, he made me pull out his rug and build a sandbox for his living room. The guy's crazy. And so we said, what's his name? He says, oh, Wilson. And that was, you know, so I have that. But I think the Beach Boy's greatest songs from that almost a decade are among the high points of American popular music. And they are at this moment especially valuable because they are in some ways the purest expressions of a kind of personal and collective optimism that America had about, in a sense, the goodness of life. And we've lost that to our detriment.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's certainly the equal of Shakespeare's play. And it has things that Shakespeare does, it has a thing called the Krato, where Yago comes in and does a blasphemous parody of the Catholic Krato, which is, I believe, in one God. And he believes in a God of evil. And this is a moment, a theatrical moment that just staggers you. In the same way, her ave Maria Desdemonas Ave Maria staggers you. So I think it's an equal work. It's hard to compare across genres. Otello, I think, is the greatest of all the many distinguished Shakespearean operas, Falstaff being a close second. Falstaff also being a gerontologist's miracle. I mean, this opera that Verdi does when he's 80 is a masterpiece and it is different from his earlier operas.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In abstract I agree with him. I do think that there was a problem with Wagner. I've always wanted to write an essay. I've never written it called slow time versus fast time. And I would take Verdi's Rigoletto where he just rushes through this thing and it puts you in an emotional frenzy. And Rigoletto is about as long as one act of Tristan, where Wagner slowed down time to give you a very different, almost hypnotic effect of the music. So once emotional excitation, the other is a kind of hypnotic trance. And I feel that that hypnotic trance, it goes too slow and parsiful. But, you know, for me, I think something like Di Valkura and, you know, even these early operas like the flying Dutchman, Friend or Hollander or Loewengrin do it in a timeframe.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I think if you go to these classic musicals like Showboat, they have tremendously fine lyrics. Annie gets your gun. Who wouldn't have wanted to write the lyrics for that show? I don't find that as much in contemporary musicals, and I don't find it hardly at all in contemporary operas. Opera is what Wagner called a gazampst Verk, a combined artwork. It combines stagecraft, poetry, music, acting, etc., etc. And if you have one element of that combination that doesn't work, the whole doesn't work in the same way that if you have a singer with a bad voice, opera doesn't work. I think that writing great lyrics is what makes a lot of musical theater from opera to cabaret, either excellent or lousy.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The third thing that I had never considered, the singer has to become your words for the duration of the performance. When the soprano walks on, she has to know who she is, who she was, what she wants. She has to inhabit your words. And that's what I think I got to be very good at, creating beautiful language that a singer could inhabit in the way they think and inhabit a great pop song.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Taking it seriously. I can't tell you how bad most libretti are, most contemporary libretti, because there's this assumption, which is that, well, you know, you just write something and the composer does all the work. That's not true. An opera needs to be as well written as a Broadway musical. And if you go to a Broadway musical, if you go to a Cole Porter musical or a Steven Sondheim musical, much of the pleasure is in the language. And I've had this experience again and again when they produce the operas I've written the Libretti for. The singers come up to me and they go, your lyrics are so good. Now, what does that mean? I think it means this. When I was writing a poem for the page, all it had to do was to work on the page. But when I write lyrics for an opera libretto, it has to work as a poem. It has to work as something that the composer can set to music, which means it has to be tight enough to have a form, but not so tight that the composer can't get into it.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“except the suffering of people with high voices, and so I was able to take the Murnau film which he had stolen from Brom Stoker. He couldn't get the copyright, so he borrowed it. But then he overlaid Wagner. And so I took that and I overlaid my own concerns. So the opera is a kind of expressionist opera, but which uses a lot of Belcanto conventions and it's deeply, deeply Catholic. I didn't intend it to be Catholic, but somehow when you're talking about the nature of evil, your theological assumptions come to the fore. I mostly wanted it to be dark and sexy and fascinating in its sinister quality.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Togler, it's all of them. Because what you're doing, what I did with Nosferatu, Alva Henderson wanted to write an opera with me, but I couldn't, you know, he had an idea and I just didn't like the idea. So I said, let me come up with an idea. And then I happened to meet a film historian. He died a few years ago, a wonderful guy named Gilberto Perez. He was a Cuban. And he had gone back to the original cut of Nasferatu, which was about half an hour longer than the one anybody see. And when I saw it, I said, gee, this reminds me of an 19th century opera because it's not about the vampire. It's about the suffering of this woman who's trapped.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I wanted to. You see this assumption right now that a poet finds a voice, a style, and they just keep working in that same vein their whole career. Where I think that you should be open to any possibility of genre of style of form”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Aden has always been a good role model because Auden understood that if you were in the 18th century and you were a poet, you were writing lyric poems, ballads, verse epistles, satires, you were writing plays, you were writing song lyrics, all of these things. And he did not allow himself as a poet to become hyper-specialized, where most poets today all they write are pieces of typography that are roughly one page long. Now you can write great poems that way, but I did not want to have a poetic life that was restricted to a narrow genre of the lyric poem written to be read silently on the page. And so Auden gave me the permission, as it were, right? Libretti, to write song lyrics, to work with jazz musicians, to do translations, to do long poems, and to also, and this is what Bishop did too, to work in any style.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Here's the thing you learn from Auden. His greatest libretto in terms of poetry is his first one called Paul Bunyan, which made an absolutely terrible opera because it was so well written you couldn't do anything with it. What Auden did as he went forward, the libretti became less poetically distinguished and more dramatically powerful. So I think his greatest libretti, I think his best two are the two that he wrote for Hans Werner Henze, the Elegy for Young Lovers and the Backey, the Basserits. Unfortunately, in the elegy for young lover, Hans Werner Henza was in his 12-tone period, and the opera is unreasonable. But the libretto is a truly great libretto. The Basseridz, the Bocke, is a great opera. It's one of the three or four best operas of the last 50 years.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“True with the vengeance. I mean, I am not invited to come in and rewrite TV shows. You know, Francis Ford Coppola and Martin Scorsese, don't call me to work on their screenplays. But in opera, they still need the poet because they need language and stories that are elevated, concise, and lyrical.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Thank God you were here and not. I mean, Augustus is that brief moment where you think that the Roman imperial system might work. And Augustus, much more than our rulers today understood the cultural power of art. Now, postmodernists, they defame Augustus, they defame Virgil Horace saying that they were pawns into imperial power. But I think Augustus had a broader vision as did Virgil, which is to say, if you can give people a common story, it unifies them. And a culture in order together an empire, a nation in order to keep together, has to have certain common myths that express, convey the values, not in intellectual terms, but in terms of story, emotion, image.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, Brooke is one of these fascinating characters, and he takes a single moment in Virgil's life, the very last moment, Virgil like Kafka. At the end of his life, felt that he had failed as an artist. He had not finished certain things in the Neyate, so he requested that his great epic. And you have to think of this, the Aeneid is the central poem of Western literature. People forget this now because, you know, we go back to Homer, we have Dante, we have everything else, but it was the Aeneid was what formed essentially the imagination of Christian Europe and that he's going to burn this. And so Brooke takes him and turns him into an existential hero having an existential crisis, which indeed might have been true. Luckily, Kafka's friend Mox Brod and Virgil's friends refused to follow the poet's wishes.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In the world, and they assumed this, they consumed and digested this to form Catholicism, which is why Catholicism has such a strong philosophical, theological, and artistic tradition”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, you can't understand early Christianity oddly without understanding Virgil. Virgil, in one of his ecologues, claimed that there was a king being born in the East who would save the world. Now, he was talking about apparently a possible heir to Augustus, but the Christians took this as essentially a prophecy and they developed a view of Virgil and of classical culture, which I think saved Christianity. I'm a Catholic. I think this is fundamental to Catholicism, which says that there is the supernatural inspiration, but there is also a kind of natural prophecy, a natural inspiration. And so they, using Virgil, they were able to save the entire classical tradition as an alternate way of thinking about the world, articulating.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Wilbur, you know, you felt with Wilbur when you were reading these wonderful poems that everything that was worthwhile and usable in the past somehow found a place in these poems. And I think that's what it is. And the same way you would not in mathematics or science or economics throw out everything before you. You would take it and you would build on it to make something that was meaningful for the moment.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, there are poets. I mean, there's three ways of saying conservatives, conservative politics, is it conservative aesthetics? Is it a conservative cultural vision? There was an avant-garde composer named Lou Harrison, and he had his motto, which was consider, conserve, create. And the whole notion seems to me of art is of conservation, of looking at all the achievements of the past and figuring out what it is we save and what it is that we need to add to move forward. The trouble with that in terms of the academic culture is that there's one or two trendy ways that they think are important because they generate work that validates you for promotion and for tenure versus having real deeper cultural values. So the really great as a word, poets who are conserving culture.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I thought it was hard work because Robert Fitzgerald made us learn every character and every long book. And we're talking about hundreds of people with Greek names or Italian names. But what it does do is show you that every moment in a great work of art contributes to the total effect. That none of these things are accidental. Everything has meaning”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Memorizing poetry is the only way to learn poetry. Who is the mother of the muses? Nemnosign, the goddess of memory. Poetry you don't understand poetry until you learn it by heart. Think of the metaphor of learning it by heart, putting it into the very center of your being and making it part of you. And that's when and only when you understand how most of poetry's meaning is indirect is intuitive even physical.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In the last half century, and just seeing how gets worked, how gets performed, how gets conceived of things was like a university degree. And the same thing for me with Bishop and Robert Fitzgerald. I was with two of the greatest craftsmen poets of their generation, sometimes twice a week. And it was transformative to me. Much better than an organized lecturer.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, well, I think actually my memoir that really brought this to light is that nobody wanted to take her classes. So she was not a popular poet. She was not prestigious. And Harvard students are absolute barometers of prestige. They can feel it and they gravitate towards it. I liked her. She was a bad teacher. There's no question about it. She was a bad teacher. But you were in a room with a great poet who had no pretensions at all. She says, I am a bad teacher. And you would just talk about poems. You would look at them. You'd feel the material. And there is no substitute for a young artist to the experience of being in the presence of a master. My brother Ted, who's a famous historian, jazz critic, he played piano with Stan Getz. Stan was a very difficult guy, but it was one of the great jazz geniuses.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“and make you feel the pain, the joy, the illumination, the doubt with the absolute intensity as if it were happening to you.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, she's radical in that she went back to the roots of poetry. And she kept rhythm. She usually kept rhyme. And she understood that poetry wasn't simply a formal structure. It was a form of wisdom literature. When I review books of poetry, I ask myself three questions. What is the writer doing? What's the writer trying to do? Secondly, how well does the writer do this? But then there's the third question, and this is where Elizabeth Bishop really wins. How worthwhile was the thing that they wanted to do and they did? And sometimes you see people do marvelous jobs of something that's not really worth the effort. What Bishop tried to do was to explain in her poetry, and this is what great poets do, what it is like to live in a particular life, in a particular moment.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Bronx, who invented what we now think of as rap and hip hop. And within about 10 years, it went from non-existing to being the most widely purchased formed of popular music. So we saw in our own lifetime something akin to homework, the reinvention of popular oral poetry. There were parallels in the revival of slam poetry, cowboy poetry, and new formalism. So at every little social group, people from the ground up reinvented poetry because the intellectuals had taken it away from them.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Rap hip hop without any question is poetry. It is rhythmically structured words moving through time. Now, so you have in the invention of rap. Rap is interesting because once again, if I go back to 1975 when I was leaving Harvard, I was told by the world experts in poetry that what? Ryman Meter were dead. Narrative was dead in poetry. Poetry would become ever more complex, which meant that it could only appeal to an elite audience. And finally, that the African voice in poetry rejected form, rejected these European things, and would take this experimental form. So what the intellectuals in the United States did was we took poetry away from common people. We took rhyme away, we took narrative away, we took the ballad away, and the common people reinvented it. The greatest one of these was Kool Herc in the South.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The deprivation of narrative of stories, the cheapening of narratives in our mass culture, I think has had tremendous human cost, both in the loss of creativity, loss of productivity, and also at its worst in terms of suicide, drug use, and death.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, it was interesting in the modern movement, and I'm talking about maybe 1914 to the Second World War, there was a huge transformation in all the arts, music, sculpture, painting, literature. And art became in every form more abstract, more conceptual, more formal, not in the sense of rhyme and meter or whatever, but in terms of these kind of structural designs. As part of that, there was a general bias against narrative, putting a story in was somehow condescending to a stupid audience. But the fact is, humanity needs stories. People lead their individual life as a story. And one of the reasons you need lots of stories.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is there a disagreement? And most people will check good or bad. They cannot, because of their, in a sense, inadequate linguistic training. They cannot recognize contradictory statements in a larger logical structure, which means that we've lost our ability to make even basic distinctions and refinements in terms of thought. So I feel that now there's another whole thing which is different from this that I'll be happy to go into, but I don't want to talk too long on this.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think we see it everywhere around us. We see a coarsening, a stupefication of language. We live in clich ⁇ s, you know, we live in newsbites. I mean, if you look at the size of an article in a newspaper, it's probably one third of what it was when I was in college. The New Yorker even probably has one quarter as many words that were not as comfortable working with words and where you see it most clearly. I did a lot of work at the NAA in terms of American literacy and I had never understood how we measure literacy, but it's a very simple thing, and I can explain it in about a minute. In a test that measures high levels of literacy, I say Tyler says that coffee is good. Dana says coffee is bad. And the question is, is coffee good? Is coffee bad?”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Level, what you create over time if you have the arts there are people who are better aware of who they are, how they feel, are able to articulate it and recognize that empathetically in other people. So I would say that a purpose of poetry on a social level is to enlarge our empathy and understanding of one another.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think poetry has a social function, but it's a relatively complicated and subtle one, which is to say the reason that we have art is, in a sense, to increase human happiness. And it does that essentially by on an individual level, a work of art awakens you, it awakens you to the possibilities of your own potential. It takes that potential, it enlarges it, it refines it. And each art does it in different ways. Music appeals to the auditory sense, a kind of organizational, formal structure in the mind. Painting is visual, sculpture is visual and tactile. In the old days, people always would feel sculptures. Poetry is to our language and our emotional functions. They awaken emotions and awaken our ability to articulate them. Now that's on an individual basis. When you do that on a social...”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“is really registered to speak to a broad mix of humanity. And there's an assumption in the university that the common reader, the average person, is stupid. And I hate to say this in public, but the center of human intelligence, the epicenter of human intellectuality is not the English department. The English department has bright people, it has dumb people. You know, it is a reflection of humanity in general. And I meet intelligent people in every profession I go to, including people that are in manual labor. I mean, I meet extremely reflective and intelligent people that that's the life that they have found themselves in. And I know that because I am the first person in my family to go to college. I was raised around working class people, many of whom did not speak English as their native language. And my family on both sides was full of really intelligent.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I don't think that people in marketing would understand my poetry better or worse than other people. What I do think, in fact, I know this, it's not a speculation, it's a deeply rooted observation. My poetry is written for people with broad life experience. The older the audience, the better the audience, the more diverse the audience, the better the audience. And rather than writing for people who essentially are working in a code, you know the tribe of economists. The tribe of economists have certain rituals. They get around the fire, they do their economist dance, they offer their economists sacrifices. They sing their economists chants. Poets are the same way. And I'm not really interested in talking to them exclusively. My desire has always been to write a poem that my fellow poets will say, gee, that's really well made. That's really a nice work.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think there's two reasons. First of all, people tend to write out of their life experience and that life experience is nowadays mostly academic. Secondly, business and money are the only two obscene topics left in American poetry. You can write specifically about sexual acts or excrement in American poetry and be praised. But if you write about business, you're considered somehow polluted. And so I think even the business people who are poets and it's been about a dozen, 15 of them that are really quite famous, starting with Stevens and Elliot, to people like Dickie and Eberhard. And so those people tend not to write about their experience because they know that it will essentially earn them criticism from their peers.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Some other way. And I just felt that being in the university was making me as a poet too self-conscious. I was writing poems to be interpreted rather than to be experienced.”
2021-04-07 · Conversations with Tyler · Dana Gioia on Becoming an Information Billionaire · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source