YouSaid · the spoken record

Dana Rao

lines on the record: 120
first: 2024-01-09
most recent: 2024-01-09
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“But for all the people out there who've ever wanted to create but felt like they couldn't because the tools are too hard or the expertise is too hard, it's going to get a lot easier to let your inner child out and express yourself. And that's a cool place to be.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think I know in our own tools, when I see in the labs the innovation that's coming both in video and audio and 3D, and it's just really going to, a year from now, the way you create will be so much different and so much more interesting than even the way you create today. So I would not be as focused honestly on the law, the law is exciting for me personally.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, well, then I can talk to you for hours and hours about this, I think, as you can tell, but you've given us so much time. I really appreciate it. Tell people what they should be looking for next if they're interested in how AI and copyright law and the regulatory worlds collide. What's the marker in your mind that people should be looking out for”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And feel good about what we're shipping. So we do believe there's a role for the government to play in terms of setting out a standard by which we can attest to.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Within the government, we know that there are some roles the government should play in understanding this because there are values that societies will have that will be different from country to country. And Adobe wants to comply with the law, and it would be helpful if we interact with the government, they have an understanding of like, this is the percentage of errors you could have in an AI, or this is the percentage of, you know, bias you can have in a model and set out those standards. We were meeting with NIST recently, and we were saying they would be a perfect place to set forward the standards by which a model should be able to safely operate in the view of the United States government and says, this is where your model parameters should be from an output perspective. If we comply with that, then we should be able to self-certify and ship.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Gets shipped, has a feedback mechanism built into it so users can give us feedback because we know AI will not be perfect because of its black box nature it will never be perfect it shouldn't be perfect because we want the black box we want it to do unexpected things but that means it could do unexpectedly wrong things and so we need that feedback loop from the community to be able to tell us hey this thing that you're doing now it's a little off course go back and retrain it or or put in some filtering to make sure we don't see that so having that feedback mechanism as well built into our tools is also really important when we think about building ai so that's the transparency piece as well so those three principles are how we go about governing our own practical implementation again we've been doing this for a while”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And that's really how we govern all the technology. So everybody who creates an AI feature at Adobe has to fill out an AI impact assessment, every engineer. And it says, what is the impact of the feature that you're creating? And there's a short form and a long form. And the short form is essentially we're choosing what font the user wants using AI. And we're like, ship it. Like there can be no downside to that. So we want innovation to get out the door as fast as possible. It's low risk. And then if there's something else that we think about is higher risk like Firefly or the way we're building the model, then the AI ethics review board itself, which is a diverse group of people who are cross-functional. So not just engineers, but engineers and marketers and communication and research. They'll look at it and say, hey, on behalf of Adobe, this is sort of how we feel about the technology should get built and should be shipped. We also have some requirements that every AI feature that”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, when we started our AI ethics program, Four years ago, you know, we had set up principles for Adobe to follow. And those are accountability, responsibility, and transparency, which spells art, which is really important.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Any case, the industry is way ahead of the law with AI, especially when it comes to copyright law, especially when it comes to safety. What are your internal checks and balances? Right. You talked about Adobe's values at the beginning of this conversation. Are you holding all of your decisions against a set of values? Do you think the market needs the regulation in order to stay in line? Where's the balance for you?”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think there will be a hybrid. I think that there's definitely a lot of, if you can make this happen on a device, there's a lot of advantages to being on the device, the latency between typing the prompt and calling the image and getting it back, having that on chip would be a better user experience. And that's all we're trying to do here is make sure we can have the best user experience. And so absolutely, I think in the future, if you're able to do it on chip, it would be pretty interesting for us to be there too.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“When you see that changing, do you think it happens more and more on device over time as computers get more powerful? Or do you think it happens more and more in the cloud as your business pushes more people to the cloud?”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Have to do the checks wherever the content's being created. And so the jury's out where. Four years from now, where this will be, will it be on device? Will it be in the cloud? And so we have to adapt to wherever that is. Right now, it's on the cloud. And so we understand what. Prompts you're typing in and we understand what kind of images are being created. And that's where we have to do the check. I mean, if you're uploading your images to our servers, that's where we'll do the check. And so that is still the current world we're living in. That's our approach.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Where do you put the enforcement, I think, is the question that I keep coming back to. For example, I had AMD's Lisa Sue on stage with me at the Code Conference. I said, you can see how open source models running on a Windows laptop completely evade all law enforcement, right? Like you can just see how you can make a bunch of rules and then someone has an open source model and they're running it on Linux on an AMD chip. And the last person who can stop them is you. Like AMD has to stop them at the chip level. She said, yeah, that might be true. You know, the model and the chip have to work together. But we're open to it. We'll figure it out. For Adobe, as you move more things into the cloud, you have many more opportunities to do basically real-time content moderation. Maybe it's on the prompt, maybe it's on the output. Maybe it's what people are storing their content libraries. Or you could push everything back to the desktop where you see less and less of it. Where do you land the enforcement? Where do you think you have to do the checks?”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“By the very nature of it, and that's where the counterfeiting one came from is they engaged with the team and said, hey, we want to make sure this can't happen. And so then we complied with the government. And Adobe will always comply with those kinds of requests when the government comes to us and says there's something this technology that is unlawful or really harmful. Stop everything just to uphold a particular. Ideal or point of view.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, there's always for all people in the image generation business, there's the question in the law enforcement requirements about child sexual abuse material and you don't want to allow that to be generated. You don't want to allow that to be proliferated on your server and you have to report it to law enforcement if you detect it and you should have ways of detecting that kind of material being created. So that's critical and important to address at all times. And then yeah, anything that Photoshop is capable of that is going to break law, right?”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, one of the things that's really hard there is where you land the enforcement, where you land that mandate. There's some stuff in Photoshop you cannot do, right? You cannot counterfeit money in Photoshop. I've tried. I was younger And the software kept me from doing it You just can't do it. Is there stuff that you think Photoshop can't do now or should not allow people to do?”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And then people will be deceived. And I'm saying, if I want to draw a bright line around, I actually need you to believe this happened. I would draw it farthest to the left before AI gets used. But there's nothing wrong, obviously, with the other parts because it looks beautiful and people are always doing that. And it doesn't change the truth of the image. So we're not even saying don't use generative AI. We're encouraging people. Use generative AI in that picture. But tell people what happened to it. Did you remove a background? Did you remove a stranger that was including the view of the primary subject? That's all great. As long as people can see what you did. then they can believe you.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And then everything you're seeing is being interpreted by your own cornea and then your own ability to interpret color. And then what you're looking at and what I'm looking at are totally different shades of blue. And so the whole thing is really kind of fictional, this idea that we're all sharing a common visual reality. So I would not put a lot of stock into that either. Yeah. So your 50% composite picture to me is certainly a version of reality that I would believe is accurate. It's just that there's going to be a slippery slope of generative AI is involved that you could then easily manipulate it to be something a pose that didn't actually happen.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think everything we're doing, the way your brain works, right? Every image you see, first of all, everything you're seeing happened a second ago, not even present. Now I'm”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“He heard it here first. I mean, I truly struggle with this question. I have old cameras. I basically set on the shelf. And now AI denoise in Lightroom has brought them back to life. It has enabled me to use them in new ways. And I'm taking photos of my daughter and I love using these cameras and my old lenses and all this stuff. And I'm like, is this real? And I just truly do not know the answer. I struggle with it every time. But then the output is so rewarding that I'm using it without a second's hesitation. And I think. There's the big questions about election disinformation and content authenticity and proving provenance. And then there's this little question of, boy, this technology feels really good to use. And making people apply a moral judgment to how they use technology when it feels that good is an almost impossible task.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We don't see classes. We're class free here at Adobe. And everyone can join this initiative. And I think everyone should join this initiative. It was great to see Qualcomm say, you know, Snapdragon will be C2PA compliant because that's a step toward getting it on the smartphones. But we absolutely think all the smartphones should have the ability to add contact credentials. There's no reason they can't. So this is just a question of whether or not all the endpoints participate in this standard or some standard like this, but I think it's going to be a necessity for everybody if they want to be believed to have this ability. And there's no reason why this technology can't live everywhere.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“People will believe you less. And this is all about what we refer to as a kind of like a dial of trust. And it's up to the person taking the picture of where you want to put the dial. And you want to be maximum trust. You take it with like a camera that has no AI in it and has contact credentials and you put your name on it and the date and location all that metadata. And that's a high level of trust. Or you can say, I don't really care. This is about my cat. It's going to Instagram. Whatever”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, if your goal was to be believed, my suggestion would be minimize the use of AI in the initial capture in the Huawei phone or whatever it is you're talking about because people”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The original base image is true because I captured it this way. And then I can edit as much as I want to make it easier to see. But people always be able to understand what the base image was and they can see what your edits were. And one of the cool things that we're doing to show this to consumers, we have a site called verify.org. And on that site, if you bring your content credentialed image, you can just use a slider. And the slider will just show you the image you're seeing on the Wall Street Journal and the slider just move back and forth and you'll see the original image. And then just like that, you can say, oh, okay, I understand what the base image of reality was. If your base image of reality is generative AI and it'll show that in the metadata, then I'm not going to believe it.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So the way I'm answering that question is this is for somebody who says, I need you to believe this. This thing actually happened, okay? And I'm going to record everything that happened to this image, all the stuff I did to it. That automatically happened. It's in the metadata. So my answer to you is not, what is the technology capable of? It's what do you want to do with the technology? And the more you use the technology to blur the lines between real and imaginary, then the less you're going to be able to prove what you did was true. So I was summoned saying, I'm taking some very important picture. There's a volcano exploded in Iceland and I want to show you that actually happened, I would probably use less of the artificial intelligence in the initial capture so I can show people that this happens.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“People are there because they want to make a difference. All these people, they have day jobs, but they're in it. I mean, there's arms in there and Qualcomms in there, Qualcomm just announced that Snapdragon is going to be C2PA compliant. So that's an amazing step forward. We have all the media companies, as I mentioned, New York Times, the Washington Post, and AP and Reuters. And it's international organizations are doing it. Obviously, people like Microsoft and Ketty. So just a breadth of kinds of companies who all come together and said, hey, we want to work together to address the negative implications of the deep fake creation ability of generative AI because we all want to live in this society and we need it to work.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We're just helping lead the coalition of people who are coming together. So I don't know of another standardized organization that has been more successful. And that's because people were there, and that's what's so exciting at the symposium last week.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's going really well. I think we've set records. We had a symposium last week at Stanford where we brought in all the members of the organization and the standard together. And the first time we did this four years ago, there was 59 people. This time there was 180 people that representing all these thousands of organizations, the standard organization that we formed to build this technology is called the C2PA. After just a year, we had the 1.0 version of that technical specification. And we're already up to 1.4 in just four years. And that's, you know, describing how to build this provenance technology for images, video, and audio, and how you use water marking. It has all the technical specifications that anyone can go now and implement in their own products and services. And so it's an open standard. It's free to use. Adobe doesn't make any money off of any of this technology, by the way.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“See the icon, you can click on it, you can say, Oh, I know what happened. Biden did meet Zunski. I believe it because they proved it. And now we have a way for people to prove it's true in a world where everything could be fake.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And it gets associated with images and it goes with the image wherever the image goes. And a user, and it's the public who gets to decide, can look in an image, they can see the provenance, and then say, okay, I believe it. This person went through the bother of proving what happened. So you can capture information like who took the picture, when it was taken, where it was taken. We have over 2,000 members in this initiative right now. We have companies like Sony and Lika, both of whom announced recently they're shipping cameras with this technology called content credentials in the camera. LICA is already shipping that camera. It's in the stores. And that means you can take a picture, turn on cato credentials, and when you take that picture, it has that metadata secured image right there, move it to Photoshop, which also has contact credentials, make your edits, tracks the edits that were made, ends up getting published to the Wall Street Journal, who's also a member of this standard. And then on their website, you can see it.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And you see that today when you're the Israel Hamas thing, and you're like, did this happen? Did it not happen? Is it a real image? Is it not real image? Because you know everything manipulated so you don't believe anything you see and hear. And that's very dangerous for a democracy or society because we have to be able to come together, talk about the facts. We could fight about the policy, but we have to be able to talk about the facts. But for just fighting about whether the facts even happen, we're not going to get anywhere. So the technology of the content authenticity initiative, which we and a few others founded of. Years ago, it allows you to assign metadata to images, it's like a nutrition label”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And so we said, all right, so given in a world where you could possibly have things that look real but are not, what can we do to help? And we said, let's make sure people. Who have something important to say news or important other stories, that they have a way to prove what's true. Because once everybody realizes that everything can be faked, these diesel images can be manipulated or edited in a way to deceive them, they're not going to believe anything anymore. It's the doubt that is more dangerous than the deep fake.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We said, well, now people can easily be deceived by these fake images, fake video, fake audio. And that can have real serious consequences for their livelihoods if it's just personal to you or for the world if it's like something about the global environment. And so we said, well, what can we do about that? Can you detect deepfix? Is there a way just to say, hey, I'm going to create an AI fake detector? And every time you see an image, it's going to say, this is a deepfake. Don't trust it, right? And so we again put our AI image scientists. They love me at Adobe giving them homework assignments. And said, hey, can you do this? And the answer came back. He's like, probably like 60% accuracy. So not consumer grade. It's always going to be very difficult to be able to detect something that's a deep fake. And that technology is always evolving.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Then the people, of course, should be who misuse a tool should be held accountable. No question for causing harm. Just like any other bad actor who's misusing something to cause harm. So I always think that's important to remember because most people are using this tool for good. There's somebody out there who says, I can see the potential of this and I can use it for bad. You should address the person who's misusing it, not address everybody who's using it for good. However, what we said was the real problem when we asked what Adobe wants is we said because people are going to see how the ability to access all these generative AI tools and do amazing things and create realistic but fake images, it's going to be easier, right, for bad actors to create these deep fakes and deceive people. And then you've again looking ahead, you fast forward.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The way we look at all of the generative AI tools, and almost every technological tool, is that you want people to be able to do whatever their vision is, their creativity is. 99% of the users of Photoshop are making art or creative expression in their marketing materials, advertising campaigns, whatever it is, right? They're just out there expressing themselves. And you want to encourage that. And you want to let people do the things they need to do. If someone's out there misusing a tool to crit harm, your example may not be harm maybe parody or satire or something, but not harm. But if someone is actually trying to crit harm, like there was a image of Zelensky saying, you know, lay down your arms, deep fake of him. Actually do harm.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The shipping technology, it seems like everyone understands how to do that, right? It's like, should we? Should we is the major question in the AI world? Let me ask you, Photoshop is like a great playground for hypotheticals when it comes to this. Isaac photo of Donald Trump and I say put him on an elephant using generative AI. And I'm picking off because it's a similar Republican Party. And I say take a photo of Joe Biden. I say, put him on a donkey, simple Democratic Party. And I create a composite of these two characters using Photoshop. Does Adobe want that to happen? Do you think that's okay? And that's like obviously a silly example. You can easily imagine. Vastly more destructive examples.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Maybe. And then, of course, copyright. So I would say it's some version of those three things. But when we sat around again in March and we were thinking about the consequences of generative AI and text to image, we said we're probably going to need a new right here to protect people. And so that's when we said, let's get out after it. It's sort of like the same way you mentioned the content automatic on when we saw where AI was going in terms of being able to generate deepfakes. We said we're going to need to do something about addressing that problem. And let's get together and figure out a solution for it. And content authenticity, the answer was a technological solution. But for this style issue, we think that's probably a legislative solution. And so we really feel like as a community, we need to think about the consequences of the technology we're bringing to market and address them in a proactive way that helps everybody.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Does not like anything, but it's closest to, I mean, it's closest to our right of publicity, probably closer or trade dress.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Go off and go after those people and remediate that economic harm. And so that act that we wrote a draft bill, we gave it to the Senate Judiciary Committee. They're reviewing it. We're talking to people about the value of style protection. We think, again, I think where we sit here at Adobe is we try to see What we think the problems are going to be. We think that's going to be a problem. We think that people are going to lose some of their economic livelihood because style appropriation. And we think Congress should do something about that, right? Is that root”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Digitally, and I can go sell it, people say, great, either spend $10,000 or something Mile creates or I can spend it for, I can go buy something that looks just like them for a buck, right? That's the economic harm that we really see as an issue. There's no such thing as style protection in copyright law right now. Like you can't protect that. That's not a concept. So we've we've introduced it in the same set of testimony you referred to earlier this idea of a federal anti-impersonation right And the idea of that is it would give artists a right to enforce against people who are intentionally impersonating their work for commercial gain with the typical fair use factors giving exceptions but the goal there is to say hey if someone is basically passing off themselves as having created your work because it's in the same style and the impersonation of you, you should have a right like copyright you should be able to get statutory damages you should be able”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“One thing I want to come back to that we talked about the economic harm. So, the place that we see, so people just generating things off the model, I think they're not comparatable and it is what it is. I think that where we worry about on the creative side is this idea of style. And so we really feel like there's this potential and we've actually had artists already come to us and say this is happening where people will say I'm going to create a painting in the style of Nile based on all the work that you've done that I model was trained on. And now I can create something that looks just like something you painted.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I said, I think that we do not believe just typing in a prompt is going to create the copyright. First of all, right now the statute requires human expression anyway. And so that's going to be a problem for anyone in the United States who wants to get a copyright on an AI generated work.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The generative AI models can just flood every distribution pipe that exists with garbage. And we have no way of discerning it is, I know there's stuff Adobe does, like the content authenticity initiative, which I want to talk about. There's these metadata ideas. But just in the base step, like where do the copyrights come in? Where do they go? What is allowed? What is not allowed? Do you have like a position there that at least gives you clarities? You make all these decisions?”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah. The problem is that Genova AI is not limited to use by creative professionals who know how to use Photoshop. It democratizes creation in a massive way. And a lot of people aren't going to take a second expressive step to make sure that they're going to. Fire off tons and tons of content, believe that it's theirs because they made it, and then I don't know, file DMCA requests against whatever platform. Like, that's like the real danger here, right?”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That I think is how you can still take comfort that you can get a copyright in a work that is based on generative AI. You still have to add something to it on top. And most of us will, right? If you're a creative professional, you're never satisfied with what comes out of one of these generative AI models because it's not exactly what you wanted, right? You're always going to make it whatever your vision is. We refer to this as the first step in the creative process. And all the other steps are going to be copyrightable. So we feel like that piece. Get resolved just by the people using the technology the way they would normally use the technology.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Into my mind Right. And maybe the output. I don't think we're there yet. I'm not even sure that holds up. What I do say is that once you get your output, you can still get a copyright by putting it in to Photoshop and adding your own expression or whatever your tool is, right? But we have one and add your own expression. And now it's your work, right? And”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Task and we feel like they pulled it off beautifully. So that's important. On the second part of your question, On the output of AI is it copyrightable, our position has been when we stare at this, we don't think a generative AI model typing in a prompt and having a generative AI create the image, but we don't think that output is copyrightable by itself because we think that the last step of expression is being done by the AI, not you. You're typing your prompt, you're like, you know, pink bear riding a bicycle, the AI is choosing in the first instance what kind of bear, the shade of pink, all the things that are supposed to be the expression that the artist is supposed to have in order to get a copyright. So we think that just typing in our prompt is probably not going to create a copyrightable expression. It is possible, you know, in the future, as you can create a very, very detailed prompt, and then you may even look at the prompt and say, is that copyrightable? Because I put so many words in it. And then I, you know, control the output so much that the thing that came out is almost exactly what I envisioned.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“A threshold question of what got copied and did it get copied. You have to have a copy for copyright law. So I can see both sides of this. And I'm just saying you could easily see the fair use cases going the way of the AI models just because of the science, but then you could see kind of a judge looking at this thing, kind of, and saying from a, is this the right thing to do perspective? And that's what fair use is. It's an equity-based analysis and saying, hey, we're going to try to correct a harm here and we're going to expand fair use to cover it. It's possible. Go either way. The nice thing about word Adobe did is we said we're sidestepping the whole copyright issue by trading on licensed work. So no matter what happens in those class action lawsuits, our model is fine. Like we don't have any concerns. It's one of the reasons we chose it because we wanted to have the stability in our product. We're not going to have to rip firefly out because of some court case. So that is important to us. That was a choice we made back in March. Again, harder to do it that way from a science perspective, but our engineers are up to the top.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We totally agree with that as a danger. And that's why we want to make sure we have ways to establish rights that are not maybe even copyright rights for creators so they can protect themselves from the economic loss AI can bring before I get to that. I think there are four factors. We don't know how it's going to turn out. The Warhol case clearly showed the Supreme Court is interested in the economic factor as part of the Fairy's analysis, but there is still a...”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There's four factors, you know, there's amount, there's the purpose of the use, and then the last one is effect on the market for the original works. And in this case, with General AI, it feels like you're going to destroy the market for the original works. You're going to destroy the market for human creators. And no one knows how that argument is going to go inside the classic fair use analysis.”
2024-01-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT