YouSaid · the spoken record

Fei-Fei Li

lines on the record: 48
first: 2023-10-16
most recent: 2023-10-16
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“It's maybe just my personality. I'm not letting go the work. Therefore, I'm hopeful. But if I feel there's no place to people like me to participate, then that's the beginning of trouble. This is why I wanted to write the book. I wanted to encourage all the young people, especially from different backgrounds, to Join us and feel the hope through their own doing.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So people ask me this question a lot. And my answer is always the following. I'm only hopeful when I feel I'm part of participating the change or if many people like me like you were not powerful, were not Extremely rich by any measure. If people like us feel we have no longer any say any way to participate, then the hope will be gone. But right now, I still feel as a researcher, as a technology leader, I'm working, I'm working with students who always make me feel hopeful. I'm working with civil society. I'm working with policymakers. I'm working with the industry. And right now I'm still holding the hope. But I feel it's a”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think every company, every organization, every country needs frameworks, needs norms, and these frameworks should be Maximizing multi stakeholder well-being includes many things, financial freedoms of speech, dignity, and all that. And I think we have a long way to go.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Use as a public square, but it's actually a very philosophical word. I know it came from the ancient Greece and were, you know, debates and philosophy. But public square is public. But if you really look at the ownership of even public square who owns a public square government tend to own public square, so what does it mean a private company is a public square? Where are the boundaries, especially now a private company is really a private citizen, right? So it's actually a very philosophical issue. Do I regret, I don't know, I'm still using it. I want to use it as a public square, but I don't know whether it is or not. I really, it's I don't have a, I don't feel I have a strong sense.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So I like the word public square. And I think part of the reason they also picked me as a board member is I actually use Twitter, right? So I did use and I still do use it.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so that character truly, I'm sure it's public knowledge. There is a within board committee. That led this effort. And now surprisingly, I was not on this committee. I did not have the expertise. Frankly, my understanding was that's my fiduciary duty to look at from ego. Wake up argue if It should be that way, but it was that way. It is that way. It is. And that's what it is. But really, the juicy details I was not part of.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. Well, Peru, before he was a CEO, he was actually CTO. He's a Stanford CS alumni, PhD alumni. So he and I talked about big data. He talked about different aspect of using machine learning techniques. I mean, really as mundane as advertisement optimization to other aspect. It's under that technological premise I joined. I was very happy to be on the board when Twitter established its ethical team, Ruman and her colleagues. I was participating in more the technological side of the discussion. But also, you know, I did see my role as someone with human-centered belief of technology, but there are way far greater forces that dominated the company in the last couple of years.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I don't think it was a high rate for the same reason you talked about. So here's the real story, right? Parag invited me.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This bill is, if passed, will create a public sector AI research cloud and data repository. What that means is that universities across the country, think tanks and nonprofits will be able to access more compute and possibly more data to do AI research. We just talked about bottom-up research, right? If I'm a cancer researcher who's looking at a rare disease, not your big cancers, it's very hard for me to get funding, to get industry support, to get philanthropy, but then I can hopefully get to this cloud and use the compute and some of the data coming from NIH or whatever CMS to do my research. Bill is around 2.6 billion dollars over six years for the public sector. Microsoft give OpenAI $10 billion, I think, of compute.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Okay, so I've got, like you say, you began this talk with the 2018 op-ed. At that time, I don't think many of them care, dare I say, or it's still only a few people are thinking about it. Fast forward to 2023, I've been to DC a few times. There's so much more talks about this. So it has reached to the level of consciousness. I still think we urgently need to help our policymaker to understand what this is. And to that end, Stanford ATAI is hosting as much as we can educational programs. We're creating policy briefs. We're doing bootcamps. We're having closed door training sessions for the executive branch because we have to begin with giving them proper information of what this is.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, as well as the kind of public participation and evaluation of this technology. So it's both for innovation as well as evaluation and frameworking this technology.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“At least I was a physics major and I think about, you know, reaching the moon and beyond. I think it means to me the kind of public sector investment.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But again, we're talking about lowering the bar, right? Right. Just like disinformation, it's easier now. So some of these rubber meets the road scenario. We've got agencies and they just”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Is right. So every agency should be very vigilant and have a sense of urgency to update what they have for this technology. Now it's possible that even with all existing framework, we cannot cover it all. And when that happens, I think it's possible we should look at what agencies we should create in addition. I guess if you are asking me my point of view, right now I think there's more urgency to figure out the existing frameworks because I don't know about you. Actually, you're in journalism. I really wake up worrying to hear the news we'll see the first death of self-diagnosis using chat GPT. I don't know if it has happened yet or it's been reported. Well,”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Okay, so this is an interesting topic. We can talk about this. I don't know yet. I feel there should be an agency for the following reasons. This technology is extremely horizontal. Many parts of it should be, in my opinion, in the existing framework where the rubber meets the road, like the FDA, like the SEC.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I don't know if I'm confident. I just don't give up. That's where I am. Because look, I'm sure you face the same thing. If you and I give up, where is the next young teenage girl? Gala looked up.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I know, but it's a battle we cannot give up because this technology is too important not to include everyone. When I say everyone, I mean both the creation of the technology as well as you use the word decision making, who is the decision maker, as well as those who holds this technology accountable. So I do think we have to continue to chip away at this. The awareness is really important and the empowerment of people from different background is so important.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's an uphill battle, Kara. You experience this as much as I do. To this day, I'm often the only one or very few women in the room and oftentimes I'm not in the room. And look at who holds the megaphone. Compared to Ada Loveless, it's been better.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“To me a scientific discovery. I think everything from new materials to curing diseases to even as remote as piecing together old relics of a archaeological sites right now it's all done by PhD students and their professors All this will be aided by AI and that's exciting.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So one chat GPT came, I was testing them myself. My first knee-jerk reaction is, my God, this should be the biggest moment in education sector, not because of fake essays, it's because of What kind of children are we making? Because very soon or maybe already AI algorithm can pass tests that are focusing on memorization and regurgitation. Yet human intelligence, human capital is creativity, innovation, compassion, and all those much more complex things humans are capable of. I really hope the entire education sector, especially K-12, also college level, is taking this moment and realizing we need to reassess education and think again human first, put the children first and think about how we can use this tool to superpower learning, superpower teaching in the meantime. Rethink about education so that our children become much more creative.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Absolutely. We have to confront this. In fact, our research team includes ethicists and legal scholars. Here's the thing. First of all, this is going to be a multi-stakeholder approach, right? There are moments patients want it. There are moments that the situation is so dire we need to weigh the different sides. There are also technological solutions to really put privacy computing front and center and this is something that my lab has been doing whether it's on the machine learning end or on the securing”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Is my mom's experience? But second thing I learned is labor. America is not having excessive doctors or nurses or caretakers. It's the opposite. And on top of that, they're overworked, fatigued, and there are many situations in healthcare context that the patients are not being taken care of, not because of ill intention, it's just lack of labor, lack of resource. So ambient intelligence is a way to use smart cameras to serve as extra pairs of eyes for our patients and caretakers. So to watch over if a patient has fallen out of bed, to have early detection of changes of conditions, to possibly help physical rehab at home. For patients to manage chronic conditions, these ambient sensors, whether it's cameras or microphones or wearables, can continuously discern information and package them into insight and being sent to doctors and nurses.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And because of that, I have, especially as a new immigrant, as I have first-hand experience in healthcare from a very non-privileged point of view. We've been lacking health insurance, healthcare insurance for many years. We've gone through ER ambulancy, you know, surgical settings, ICUs. And what I learned in healthcare is a couple of things. human dignity Is the most fragile thing. It doesn't even matter. What medicine you're using, what technology you're using, medical space is so vulnerable for human dignity. And for me, giving back or preserving as much human dignity as possible is one of the most important roles.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This one I'm worried, Kara. So we learned that the Ukrainian-Russian war now is the first information war. And even there we've seen quite a bit of disinformation. Like you said, disinformation is an old thing in human society, but this one is being empowered by technology and it lowers the entry point of anyone using it. I'm very worried about that. I think we need to look at this from multi-dimensional way. There's technological solutions. For example, digital authentication. We cannot do this fast enough. I know I've got colleagues at Stanford doing this, but whether you're a company who cares about the contents, you produce as well as academia, we need to get on this as fast as possible. But there has to be laws, there has to be international partnership. There has to be also General public education, right?”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right now, given the latest advances in AI technology, especially built upon language, believe it or not, it's knowledge sectors, knowledge workers, software engineers, which is one of the most coveted jobs in 21st century, is suddenly looking at a co-pilot assistance, office assistance, paralegals. Some of this will be empowering. It's not taking away jobs per se. I've actually, believe it or not, talked to writer friends and artists who are so excited to have this tool. But in the meantime, for example, contact centers is global job. You know, it is definitely going to face changes. So we need to be very careful.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“First of all, I'm not an economist. I want to give credit to my colleagues at the Stanford Digital Economy Lab who are under Stanford HAI and studying this. But here's the thing. This is a big issue. Humanity throughout our civilization has always faced us as technology disrupts the current ways of jobs and tasks. labor market gets disrupted sometimes it's for the better many times become bloody and I think we the jurors still out there we”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so I learned that was around 2018, right? I wasn't part of any of the business decision making, but I learned that was the beginning of AI's coming of age to the society and it's messy. A technology this powerful is messy we cannot just purely look at it from a technology point of view nor can we just look at it from another one angle. Around that time there were self-driving car deaths, there were horrific face recognition algorithm. Bias issues, privacy issues. So it's part of that early awakening, at least from some of us, that we've entered an age that this technology is messy and human values are complex. People come from all walks of life and they see this technology in different ways.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This is why we need a healthy public sector to be watchful, right? Who's going to assess and evaluate this technology in an unbiased way if it's left to just one player? It's guaranteed going to be biased.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“No, I'm not, but I was in Google and I'm still part of Silicon Valley ecosystem. First of all, innovation is great. I do believe in innovation, but no matter where you are, a corporate startup, universities, You're also humans first. There's also human responsibilities. Everything we do in life needs to have a framework. And I do believe we need to have ethical human-centered framework. If you're in the corporate world building social media, what is the framework you believe in ensuring the health and mental health of our children?”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I'm not in the heads of the founders, but I think it didn't surprise me. Part of it is, you know, how do you sustain a capital intensive operation where you're going after this kind of models? I don't know how philanthropy can carry that. So it didn't surprise me.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so even larger societal goal that gets piloted in academia, hopefully some of them will get commercialized, for example, new drugs that's been discovered and climate change solutions. But if we don't invest in public sector, when are we going to have that? And also, on top of that, we need a check and balances. Who is going to assess in an unbiased way what this technology is? Who's going to open the hood and understand what it is? Let's even assume for a second Kara that sentient being is what we're creating. You need trusted public sector to understand what this is.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. When I was a graduate student, I never drooled over going to a company to do my work. But I think there should be healthy exchange between academia and industry. But right now the asymmetry is so bad. So now you might ask, so what? Well, so we're going to... Have a harder time to cure cancer. We're going to have a harder time to understand climate changes. We're going to have a harder time to forecast the societal impact, whether it's economics or law or gender race, political situations. All this is happening in think tanks like public sector, universities, and nonprofits. If the resource is really diminished, we're also going to have a harder time to assess what's going on.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“One of my current biggest concerns is the extreme imbalance asymmetry of lack of public sector investment in this technology. So I don't know if you have heard me saying not a single American university today can train a chat GPT model. I actually wonder if you combine all the compute resources of all universities in America today. Can we train a ChatGPT model?”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Do you feel responsibility? It manifests from returning from Google to Stanford to start this human center AI Institute as you know I can stay in big tech. Probably have more personal gain. But it was a very conscious soul searching resulted decision in 2018 that when I see the human, potential human impact, I feel that our generation, my generation who made this technology, who unleashed this technology has part of responsibility and also a probably even a leading”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, and that's why I'm calling out for human centeredness, because if we put human individual well-being as well as community well-being and dignity at the center of this, suddenly it's not smaller. I don't want to diminish that down the road. The technology has even bigger impact. But I think the immediate things are really immediately important. I do think, though, Kara, I don't know if you're noticing this. I think policymakers are starting to pay attention.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Next week, yeah, that's next week. Catastrophic in the sense of disinformation for democracy, in the sense of if we don't have good economic policy, the job changes will impact certain groups of people more than others and might even lead to unrest in our society. Catastrophic in the sense of polarization, then you and I know this very well, whether we're talking about gender or other races and catastrophic in the sense of bias and privacy and all that. So yes, I do believe there are Risks”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“First of all, I really want to give credit to Jeff because he is not only known as the most accomplished AI research scientists in the world, but he's always intellectually so honest and Just really that kind of scientist who says what he believes. And when he sees the power, my understanding is when he sees the power of the transformer language models, he is concerned about human consequences. Of course, he has his own view about whether this is closer to sentient and I respect his view even though I respectfully disagree because like we said at the beginning The definition of consciousness and sentient being is vague and I happen to have the benefit of half of my PhD was with Dr. Christopher Koch who is still to this day a forefront researcher in the research of consciousness. So I learned I didn't learn that much because I was focusing on AI but the things I've learned from Christoph is that this is a”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, I don't know if you're aware of this. I was just at my first public talk with Jeff last week. We've been friends for more than 20 years since I was a graduate student, but it was wonderful to see Jeff and be on stage with him.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. An image that was really a shifting mindset and say, okay, look, we're doing this wrong in the past decade. Let's actually bring data into AI. And I gotta say, Kara, even as the inventor of image net, when ChatGPT transformer technology made the next inflection point last year, 2022, I had to take a deep breath and reflect on my God, big data is still playing a role that even when beyond my dream back then.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. I think the meaning of the image that is really, it symbolizes now in hindsight the beginning of big data era. Because before you image that, AI research was very logic-based. It was very, this is one jargon word, Bayesian net. It was intricate math, but it was a really working at any scale. And it definitely was not working at human scale nor internet scale.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, well, ImageNet was a project that I began working on with my students back in 2007. It became public in 2009. And the ImageNet moment that the AI history Tend to write about 2012, so it's really five years after. Onset of the project because in 2012”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It is the bigger brain, and when you have the bigger brain and faster chips to compute in a bigger brain, you are able to predict patterns in a more powerful way. This is why your bigger brain can save chemistry, can say history, can do a lot of things. That is girl in its legitimately has its consequences.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of course, this is pushing philosophy, even humans in our world don't have a precise definition of consciousness and sentient, but what this technology right now is, is it's ingesting a huge amount of data that is mostly human generated, especially in the form of internet language, as well as other digital books and journals. And then it has the ability to learn the patterns of these language and what we call the sequential model to predict when you say the word cara. It's very likely to predict the next word is swishers. So it has that capability. I do think some of the thinkers of our time are starting to see the power that is worth mentioning, which is that because it's machines ingesting data, it has far more capability than a human”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, first of all, Cara, I think you're right. I think it's our responsibility at this moment of the technology not to go hyperbolic about it being sentient. There's no evidence of it being sentient if we somehow vaguely define sentientness with awareness and intention and all that, right?”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Artificial intelligence really, as a term, it gives you a sense of artificialness. So I wanted to actually explicitly call out the humanness of this technology, especially given it's touching on intelligence. It's going to be our collaborator at the most intelligent level. We cannot afford to lose sight of its impact. That's why I want to call it human-centered.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Still feel this is going to be a continued and uphill battle, but it's a battle worth fighting is, like I said, at the center of every technology. It's creation to its application, its people. And because of the name artificial intelligence, by the way, it's better than its original name, which would be cybernetics.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of course, a turretas was proposed by computer scientist Alan Turing where he uses that as a test to symbolizes that computers can think like humans to the extent it can also make you believe it is a human behind the curtain if you don't know it's a piece of machine.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“First of all, Carol, very happy to be here. It's quite an honor. Even for someone who has been working in this field for decades, this feels like an inflection moment. And I think part of this inflection is really a convergence of public awakening, policy awakening, and the power of the technology and the business that is impacting. From Hollywood to sci-fi to it's been in the The ether of public consciousness, but I think this time is different, is real. When anyone, when young kids to elderlies can just type in a window and have a legitimate conversation with a piece of machine, and that conversation can be almost any topic, some topics can be deeper or deep, right? details of biology or chemistry or geopolitics or whatever. It really is the entire world recognizing we pass the Turing test.”
2023-10-16 · On with Kara Swisher · Why Fei-Fei Li is Still Hopeful About AI (… and Elon) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT