YouSaid · the spoken record

Greg Peters

lines on the record: 86
first: 2024-06-24
most recent: 2024-06-24
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Of the challenging parts of games is people play them all over the place. I play them on airplanes where I don't have the connectivity. With video, you have an out, right? You can just like put the bits on my phone and you're not streaming them to me anymore, but my phone can probably just play them back with a game. There's all kinds of other things that might happen, right? You can't just put the whole game on my phone necessarily, or my phone might not be as powerful as your server that's making the game to stream it to me as a video file. How are you solving that problem?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Super hard. And I would say, quite frankly, that part of the market is incredibly well served right now. I mean, you're talking about sort of the apex of an ecosystem that's evolved to support that. So you think about the software development model, the software development cost, what the consumer model is. It's a solved problem for so many people around the world, right? And so I would say, you know, back to streaming, I think where is the opportunity? The opportunity is actually not to come in from that level, but to come up from the bottom and say, hey, there's a range of game experiences we can deliver to folks that are very capable technically today where the cost dynamics around it are manageable for sure. When you think about family game night, you know, couch co-op, there's a whole set of quite impressive interactive experiences that I think we can do.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's sort of where I was going to go with this, right? So then we say what is it going to happen, right? Which would be a little bit more clear about what that means. So I would say if you think about the pinnacle of what that could be, which is call it console-like experiences at console-like latency, that is a very high bar technically. And so the cost dynamics of that, where we think about the infrastructural requirements around that.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Game streaming is one of those things that I hear about constantly on the show. Microsoft for a while would just you would like look at Microsoft and be like game streaming is going to happen. It has not happened. Why do you think it hasn't taken off the way that everyone wanted it to?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The actual game in the cloud and usually streaming it as a video essentially. And so that's an opportunity to leverage the infrastructure work that we do, the work that we do by being deeply embedded as a client on TV silicon and working with TV manufacturers to make sure that we can bring those high quality experiences to those devices as well.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, it's still an important part of how we think we can improve the user experience. So it's remarkable to me you mentioned encoding, right? And encoding efficiency, I would have thought five, seven, eight years ago we had grounded out on like the ability to squeeze actually more efficiency, which is delivering higher quality video under less and less good network conditions. Yet we, you know, in the industry writ large is something we participate in, but I would say the industry has been able to uncover even more advances in that space, which is like shocking to me, but it's incredibly impressive. So we think that there are more and more opportunities out there to do that level of work and deliver better experiences to our members. I'll give you other examples. You know, you mentioned content delivery, moving video around the internet. Part of this is what we're working on in games as well. What we want to do ultimately is actually be able to deliver game experiences to the TV. And we're going to do that by rendering”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's the user experience that's the most forward facing part of the product stack. Netflix is famous for spending a lot of time and a lot of money on core engineering problems, like just moving video around the internet was not a solved problem in the early days of Netflix. How much of your time is spent there on video encoding and caching and network distribution deals and peering arrangements?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Say that loud. No, well, you look at, I mean, it's what you'd expect, which is the more traditional media folks are slower to that process, right? And so that's a strength that we can bring that they don't necessarily have the same fluency of accessing. But then also on the flip side, I think you've got incredible tech companies that live, eat, breathe, personalization. But then the quality of their content offering is not the same and their ability to produce amazing shows at scale around the world is something that they just don't have as well. So, you know, we see both sides of things and really the magic for us is bringing those two things together in a way that magnify each other.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And use assets in different ways that make it more compelling for different users around the world because you and I might both be interested in season three of Bridgerton and be super excited about watching. But we might be actually interested about it for different reasons and our ability to communicate those differences effectively is super important to unlocking the value of all of that incredible storytelling. So that's harder to copy. No one's done, I think, as good a job as we've done about it. Some folks are not even personalizing, you know, which is remarkable to me.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There's definitely room to innovate. In fact, we've just launched a new version of our TV UI, which is where the majority of engagement takes place on Netflix. So we definitely think there's room to innovate. I also think that it's important to distinguish what is copyable and what is not copyable, right? So you're absolutely right that we do an update to our UI and I can click a stopwatch and be basically counting the time until our competitors all align on the pixel component of that version, right? And it ranges. It ranges from the better competitors can do it in 18 to 24 months and then some of the folks that take a little bit longer to get going can be years before they get there. But they all get there eventually. But that's a component of what makes the user experience and an important component of what makes the user experience is all the things that sort of then populate those pixels essentially, right? How do we think about title recommendations? How do we think about how we present title?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Your side of the house, you've got the core engineering functions, the core product functions. There's a real dynamic between the product, like how it works and what people experience, which is a bunch of content tiles and content recommendations. Where's the balance there? I think a lot of companies think video streaming is just like a white label product and you can just buy it and put your content in your off to the races. Netflix is not that. Like famously not that. But how do you think about that mix? Because everyone's kind of standardized on your approach. Like everything kind of looks like Netflix now. Is there still room there to innovate?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Next set of leaders reports to both of us. Now we have a primary sort of responsibility. So you think about content marketing, legal comms, and publicity. Those are on Ted's side. On my side, for example, we've got product tech, ads, games, finance. So that's an example of how we sort of are taking primary responsibility for the activities that sit at that level.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“content officer Bella will be doing that, but that allows a speed of decision making that I think is part of why this works.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, there's definitely a truce to that. So, I would say we both think that we're responsible for the company at the end of the day, right? And so, you know, the next level of leaders both report into us all the major decisions that we take as the company, we feel like we have to take together. We always say speaking to one of us is speaking to both of us so we feel like we owe each other clarity and transparency and all those conversations. But it is also true that one of the reasons that this model functions for us is that we get the benefits of that collaboration, but also when you think about speed of decision making and not getting stuck in things like that, that we also have, you know, lanes that we are primary in and we know that we can focus in. So if there's a big content strategy question, depending on how big it is, we'll both weigh in it, but maybe something that sits below that, you know, Ted's going to have a much better informed position than I will. And he's going to take a call on that more quickly. And quite frankly, even more so, Archie.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Maybe I overend X on the historical underperformers. I think the way people think about it reductively is that you are the tech CEO and Ted is the content CEO. Is it that simple or what's the overlap there?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We do in culture, the willingness to be transparent with each other, to have honest conversations, to be selfless, about the company first. These are all, I think, things that make the co-CEO model work, where in other places it's without those cultural elements, it's very hard or tarter to pull it off. We did do a little bit of a historical look, and I would say that the performance of co-CEO-led companies is bimodal. So it's either significantly underperforms peers or it's significantly overperforms peers, right? And I think the real discriminating factor there is, do you have that culture and do you have a set of CEOs who are bought into the model and see it as a positive rather than something that's like a compromise or they have to work around?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Two COs, I think, is an incredibly powerful model. Essentially, embodies what I mentioned at the beginning, right? Which is we seek to be a company that brings two very strong centers of excellence or capability on the creative side and then on the product and tech side and bring those together. And I would say that if you look around the world at our competitors in the space, they typically are run by one CEO and who a CEO is either really anchored in one of those worlds or the other world. And I think that that reflects the strengths and weaknesses that those companies have. So I think it's a very powerful model. I think it's hard to pull off. And I think the reason we've seen it not be done so often historically is because you really need a culture and a set of folks that really are bought into this model. And that's where I go back to our culture and think about it as an enabling function for why the COSIO model works at Netflix. And you think a lot about what...”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I want to come back to that because I think that shift or that perceived shift is really important, especially as you add advertising, because the market for advertising is dominated by other big tech companies that maybe don't, like you said, like YouTube is not out there selling premium programming the way that you are. It's still all just advertising. So I want to come back to that because I want to unpack that a little bit, but I want to make sure I get to the decoder questions because I think they will help me understand how that works in your brain. Famously, there are two CEOs at Netflix. There's you and Ted Sarandos. Historically, two CEOs has gone sideways, like Blackberry didn't work out. They had two CEOs. How is that structured between you and Ted and how is that working out after 18 months?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And so we very much think about our programming job to think about what do our members need and how do we give them something that they will love. And that drives and then fuels both models in a positive way.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, for sure. I mean, so this is a new capability from a technology perspective. So, you know, we're building technology that supports what we hope is at some point in time, and we're still very much in the progress of building this, but the best in class streaming solution for consumers, our members, and for our advertisers, we're also building capabilities that we haven't had in the company before. We never had ad sales, for example. That's a whole new muscle for us to go build. So it's definitely about growing that. But maybe the question behind your question and a question that I've gotten internally for sure is are we programming differently as a result of being now adding advertising to our model? And the answer to that question is no, because at the end of the day, whether it's subscription or whether it's advertising, both are really, really anchored in something that consumers want to watch, that our members are dying to watch. And so that engagement is at the center of both models. It's mutually supportive in that regard.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Do you think that the introduction of ads is changing how you think about running the company? You're at Con right now, which is a big advertising festival in France. When you ran a subscription business, I'm guessing you didn't have to spend as much time talking to advertisers in France. It's tough work. I feel very badly for you. But I'm guessing that's a new piece of the puzzle, right? Did you have to build up that capability?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And that's a real powerful thing to do because now we can say to folks, hey, you can have access to all the amazing stories, the films, the series, the games that we are doing at a lower price. And that's super important for them. But then also we can then work with advertisers to sort of make up the difference, if you will, between that and what we would otherwise charge on subscription via the advertising revenue that we get there.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The competitive dynamic that you're describing there, I don't think you're relaying. And evidence of that is YouTube, for example, has largely been unsuccessful at delivering the kind of content that we deliver, right? And there's a bunch of examples like this Cobra Kai is my favorite, right? Which started on YouTube, didn't do particularly well there. And then we picked it up from them. And it's become a gigantic show. And so I think one need, one entertainment need state, if you will, and we're serving a different one. And then you talked about ads. And I would say my principal orientation towards what we were doing in ads is that it allows us to offer consumers around the world a lower price point.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I guess just like on the basic economics, it's still challenging to me. Those platforms get to take a lot of content for free or very, very low rates and address a big audience. And then their model is to sell targeted advertising. Netflix's model until recently was you paid a whole bunch of money for content at very high rates, and then your model was subscription fees which got higher. But now your model is targeted advertising. Are you getting the higher rates from the ads to support how much money is going into making the content? Or are you finding the pressure of the social media platforms that are just getting it for free to be a real driver of your decisions?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, we're clearly competing at the margin back to your attention economy kind of model, but I would say I think that we're doing two different entertainment jobs. And so I don't think of the competition as strictly substitutable or head-to-head in that regard. And so in some sense, those social media channels can operate as a way of magnifying fandom and be something that, you know, it's a great mechanism for people to talk about shows that they're watching. You mentioned suits, for example, when we saw a huge amount of engagement in suits, we saw part of that magnified and reflected in what people were talking about on social media. So, you know, I think you mentioned copyright. I'd say, you know, we in the industry and generally governments in the world are supportive of protecting the rights of the people that hold those copyrights. And you see that. But, you know, people talking about the shows that they love is that's a good thing.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“One thing in the framework of there's only so many hours a day, we're competing for attention that I think is challenging and I've never heard anyone really pull apart well is Netflix famously pays for content. Hollywood famously pays for content. You're streaming competitors pay a lot of money for content. That's a huge part of your economics. The user-generated content platforms do not. or they pay extraordinarily low rates if they do. I look at something like TikTok. It's full of pirated content. Like it is a playground of copyright infringement. It's very clever. I actually really, as a former copyright attorney, I find myself very entertained by the innovation that occurs on TikTok on that scale. You look at someone like Suits, Suits is a phenomenon that started with a whole bunch of copyright infringement on a whole bunch of social media platforms. What's that pipeline like for you? Is that okay? That's fine. That's just our market. Or are you actually competing with the social media platforms directly?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I think generally, yes. So I think the import of that is still relevant. I would say I don't think of it as strictly zero sum because there is some magnifying effects across different things. And I think that what we see is that your enthusiasm, your fandom for a certain title can show up on social media, for example, in a way that's additive. But in the general sense that the entertainment landscape is highly competitive right now, humans on the planet have more opportunities to entertain themselves in multiple different ways than has ever existed before. And so in that sense, yeah, we have to basically make sure that the entertainment that we're providing is highly compelling, it's highly attractive, and it can win more of those hours. We call moments of truth as sort of our way of thinking about, like, are we doing a good job at entertainment?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Read Hastings, the former C of Netflix, once famously said the company's biggest competitor was sleep. Is like a statement of purpose about the attention economy, right? You're only awake so many hours a day, your eyes are only looking at so many things. This is a zero-sum game. And the thing that people will choose over everything is sleep if they can. Is that still the framework that you're using? That attention is zero-sum and we got to go win?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, we definitely think of ourselves as an entertainment company, and we seek to be an entertainment company that does what's very hard, I think, for other companies to do, which is bring a real capability and competency at the creative aspect of it. So you see those competencies in many traditional media companies, you know, Disney, et cetera. They do a great job at these things, movie studios, broadcasters around the world. But we also try and bring a real tech and product capability and sensibility as well. And I think that you see that in other companies like, you know, Google is amazing at that. You know, Apple's amazing at that. But it's very rare to be able to bring these two centers together and be strong at both. And that's sort of what we're trying to go do and really be a global entertainment company as well. So partly what we're trying to do is help entertain the over half a billion people around the world that currently come to us for that entertainment and hopefully grow that number over time.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“All of that is why I used to cover every minute of the twists and turns of that company. But let's set that aside. Let's start with Netflix. There's a lot of similarities between what happened on that side with cable and what is going on with streaming now. So I want to start with just kind of a big question. How do you think of Netflix right now? Is this a streaming company? Is it a TV company? Is it entertainment? You have games. What's the big picture definition of this company?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We can do it if you want. I would say, and just to be clear, I did a startup. There was acquired by MacroVision, which eventually became Rovie, which eventually became Devo. So just there's a long history of those names there.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There's also just a lot going on in streaming generally. We seem to be in a time of bundling and consolidation. And then on top of it, there's a new culture memo at Netflix, which is a big deal. Netflix has culture memos tend to set the tone for this whole industry. Our show is about worksharts and decisions and corporate culture. So I have a lot of questions about that. But I want to start at the start, which is used to work at TiVo. And I used to cover TiVo like every minute of every day. So are you ready for a full hour of TVO questions?”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Detail. Another big change Greg and I talked about is the removal of a section titled Freedom and Responsibility, which was very influential and has been quoted many times over the years. You'll hear Greg say that the memo needed to more clearly balance the fact that freedom requires responsibility and that hadn't been coming through. This conversation really hit on a lot of the big themes that come up so often on Decoder. I think you're really going to like it. Also, I found a way to ask Greg what he thinks of the Samsung frame TV, which, if you're a Virgecast fan, you know I had no choice. Oh, and before we start, I should disclose that I executive produced a Netflix show called The Future of back in 2022. It's really good. You should go watch it. Okay, Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters. Here we go.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“More streamlined. Now I've always loved the original Netflix culture deck. It's written in a pretty rash and direct style. You should look it up. It's a fun read, and it makes clear that just saying a company has values isn't enough. That the real test of a culture is the behaviors and skills that accompany values and rewards. Most importantly, it said that Netflix wasn't trying to be a family, that the company's approach to hiring and firing would be more like a sports team, where low performers would be given generous severance packages and replaced with better players on a consistent basis. If you haven't read it before, you should take a minute and go look at it. It is a remarkable document. This newest version of Netflix's culture memo is not quite so in your face as that original. In fact, it's a lot nicer and more corporate sounding. I ask Greg about that change, and his answer was fascinating. As the company grows, the memo needs to reach a bigger audience. There are more employees at the company for more backgrounds, and the tone really matters. You'll hear him talk about that in a minute.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Charge of all the content on the service. He's been in that role since 2020. It's a complicated setup, and there are a lot of stories about Kosio arrangements not working out all that well. Just look at BlackBerry or SAP, or more recently, Salesforce. But Netflix seems to be the exception, which is pure Decoder Bay. How does that structure actually work? How do decisions get made when there are two CEOs? A lot of Netflix's success is the marriage of content and technology and having those split between Greg and Ted seems like a recipe for conflict, or at least confusion. Greg and I talked about all of this, and so many of his answers rest on Netflix's unique culture, which gives employees an enormous amount of freedom. The culture was first laid out in two thousand nine in a hundred slide deck, which former Meta COO Cheryl Sandberg once called the most important document to ever come out of Silicon Valley. That deck was refined into a memo in 2017, the new version which the company is releasing.”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And welcome to Decoder. I'm Neil Patella, editor in chief of the Verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. Today I'm talking with Greg Peters, the co-CEO of Netflix. I caught up with Greg while he was at the Cannes Lion Festival in France, which is basically the world's biggest gathering of advertisers and marketers. That's an increasingly important place for Greg to be, as Netflix's new ad tier has nearly doubled in size in just six months to more than 40 million subscribers, and it feels like an increasingly important part of the future of the company. On top of that, Netflix is releasing an update to its famous culture memo, so I wanted to talk with Greg about the changes he's made to that document and how he's thinking about maintaining Netflix's culture as it grows into things like gaming and advertising. Greg has been a co-CEO of Netflix for roughly 18 months now. He was promoted from chief operating officer after co-founder and former COSIO Reed Hastings retired last year. Netflix's other CEO is Ted Sarandos, who's”
2024-06-24 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Netflix co-CEO Greg Peters on the streamer's shifting culture and where ads, AI, and games fit in · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT