YouSaid · the spoken record

Ilene Chaiken

lines on the record: 98
first: 2017-10-11
most recent: 2017-10-11
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“Thanks again to Eileen Shaken for joining me on stage, and thank you to the team at WNYC for hosting us at their work at Festival. If you enjoyed this interview and are new to Recode Decode, then you should subscribe. We're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play Music, or wherever you listen to podcast, or just visit Rico.net slash podcasts. And make sure to check out our other podcast, Peter Kafka hosts Recode Media, where he talks to the smartest and most interesting people in the media world. Lauren Good and I host too embarrassed to ask, where we answer all of your embarrassing questions about consumer tech. And on Recode Replay, you'll find audio from Recode's live events, including The Code Conference. Thanks for listening to this bonus episode of Recode Decode. Thanks also to Cadence13, the company that distributes this show, including Beth O'Connell and our editor Chris Basil. And thank you to our producer, Eric Johnson. I'll be back here at my usual time on Monday with another great guest. Tune in then.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But what do you want invented? I ask this of everyone I interview. What would you like invented? I'll go tell the people up. I know what I want invented, but it's not that exciting. All right. I want a portable presidential teleprompter. Meaning? I don't like speaking extemporaneously. I like to write everything and know exactly what I'm going to say and refine it and revise it and then walk into a room and sound brilliant. Okay. And so if I had just like an invisible, it's like, you know, hands up. Yeah. That's what I want invented. All right, we'll get on it. Anyway, everybody, Eileen Chaken, fantastic.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, you know, I'm a daily. I mean, I'm a Twitter addict. You're a Twitter addict. Yeah. Okay. Right. And it's how I get my news every day. Do you interact with people on Twitter? You don't respond as much, right? You read it. I'm mostly reading. I mostly, you know, I repost things that I think are insightful or pointed. And mostly I just promote and do things. But you don't get into it with people on Twitter? No. I like that. I do that. I just got in a big fight with Scaramuchi and now we're having lunch.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That was certainly what I was trying to say. If I gave you the impression that I was saying the opposite, I was being inarticulate. All right. Very last question for Eileen before she goes, and then we'll say thank you to her. What is your favorite digital medium right now, Eileen, now, and I'll tell you what it should be, but go ahead. I don't even understand what that question is. What do you use the most?”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Very good question for that time period. Well, in that time period, you really did have to tuck it in. But I don't think you do anymore. And I'm not suggesting that everything has to be political, but I think everything hopefully comes from some kind of passion to tell a story or joy at telling a story. I'm not sure I understood your question, but to be clear, I was saying that we don't have to hide our point of view any longer. Nor should you. Nor should you. One of the points you're making is one thing you're not realizing is we're real old. And so it was dangerous. It was. We were, both Eileen and I were much more outspoken early on in our careers, but there was a price and it was a big price at the time. Not that we care, but it certainly is you should absolutely put your point. That's how you win is putting your point of view out there.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Talking to you. You already know that that's bullshit, right? Yeah. So I wouldn't start out with the premise girls are getting into television. Just you've got a story to tell if indeed you're a writer, then tell your stories. I mean, I'd love to say the future belongs to women, but let's not even genderize it. Let's just say that we know we're going to be running things right now.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Directive emotional. I mean, he's saying I think you might have a lawsuit there. Yeah, a lawsuit. Lawsuit. Lisa Bloom is real good.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I'll just write, and I try not to think about where I'm going to sell it, whether it's right for FX or for Netflix or this or that. And especially in this world where there are so many possibilities for where and how you can tell your story, I know that there's a place. So if I've got a story that I really want to tell, I just write it. And I know that I'm going to do myself better as a storyteller by not worrying about my buyer and whether it's going to be shot on this or that technology.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There's more than one answer to that question, but it's in part what we've been talking about. So sometimes I know who I'm writing for. And, I mean, broadcast is the perfect example. If I'm doing something for broadcast, I know exactly where it's going to wind up. I know what certain conventions are. I know how many act breaks there are. I know that I need to find that moment when we cut to commercial. Whereas if I'm starting with an idea and it's not kind of predetermined where I'm going to do it,”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“How do you deal with failure? You let go and find a new project and sometimes find your way back to that old project if it's meant to come back it will, but you just, and one of the beautiful things about being a writer is that you can always do it anywhere. So, even when you feel like nobody wants to hear what you have to say, you can lock yourself in that little room and write something and then write something else. And that's always been my approach. It's just to keep pushing forward in lean times adding good.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You're a hot ticket item. It's painful, it's ugly, and sometimes you think that it's the end, but you just push through it and keep going into my own personal approach to it.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There used to be, we used to romanticize cinema I think I told you this story ages ago, but I remember a conversation with Stephen Spielberg when we first started shooting in digital, and it was just, he said, but it's not beautiful. It can't be. And it was, you know, you have to do it this way on film with all of those values. And I think that we know now that you don't and that there are all kinds of different ways to make your art”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Handmates could have been made on Netflix and released on demand all at once. I mean, you might not have. Wanted to watch them all at once, but you have that choice. Somebody who does what I do, I would just make my show. And I would hope that I have a story to tell that belongs on that platform.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I get upsessed with stories and ideas and in the way that the handmaids tale was something that I became passionate about doing 10 years ago and now it's finally being done, I don't give up on things. Some things just fade away because they weren't that good and didn't get made and probably never deserved to. But if there's something that is a great story and deserves to be told, it's not going to go away from that little groove in my brain. So that's the one.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Not going to say what it is. To show you know about. It's a show that I've been talking about for years. Yeah, that one. I mean, it's I have.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, not only do I not have to worry about it, but it makes my work better. Everybody, you know, we need to approach the stories we tell with passion. And that means that we can't pretend that we don't care or have one point of view or another. So if I come at you raging or wanting to change the world, that's a good thing.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I feel like we can be much more open about the fact that we have agendas now. I am open about my agenda and anybody that works with me, even Fox, knows that if I'm telling a story, if I'm making a show here, I'm doing it with an agenda. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to make a show that speaks to a lot of people or considers different points of view. But I have a point of view and it's going to be in my show.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We have to just keep on being radical storytellers. And I mean, we have to be activists in our life and continue to be political and to rage in the streets and not accept what's happening. But as storytellers, we just, we have to be radical storytellers. And I think that One of the things that changed the most since I started writing television, since I started doing the L word, is that we used to have to be very stealthy about our politics and pretend that. We were just entertainers that we have no politics. If you sense politics, it's just some kind of stuff.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I'm not pursuing it right now, but I think if somebody were to come to me at some point and say, let's do this, I would be interested in taking it on. It just seems to me to be a world where narrative could thrive.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I use those things to talk to the audience and learn from the audience and just learn what's going on in the world. But I know that there are storytellers who are every bit as much about storytelling as I am, who are going to find ways to tell their stories in those media.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But it was very liberating and working in broadcast television, every single show I make has to be 43 minutes. 43 minutes. I've got to tell 43 minutes of story. I welcome the idea of not being quite that constrained. I personally am not interested in telling seven minute stories, but I think there's a lot of value in it.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I started out with fewer constraints because when we made the L word, we were given roughly an hour and we had to kind of go somewhere near that hour, but we could go for 60 minutes or 47 minutes and just tell our story. And we didn't have to sell paper towels. In fact, we weren't allowed to, I once. Made a terrible blunder by talking about advertising integration when I wasn't supposed to acknowledge that it even existed.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Me? No I don't want to make anything in seven minutes, but I'm interested in the fact that it can be done and that there is a great way to tell stories and somebody is going to tell a really compelling story and create a new format for storytelling. But it's just, I like writing stories. I like writing long form. It's just what I like doing. It doesn't mean that it's better or more important. It's just what I like to do.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Anybody can do this, and Netflix is going to dominate for a minute because they have House of Cards and something else. $6 billion in the biggest show on television, but then nobody took Hulu seriously when they started making content, and then they just crushed the Emmys this year. And so now it's Hulu. And then it's also nobody took Amazon seriously until they made transparent and something else. And what we're starting to realize is it can happen anywhere. Maybe Apple's going to make a great show that's going to dominate the media landscape for a year or two. And hopefully they'll all stay in business. I don't think it's going to be like the old network days where suddenly ABC, NBC, and CBS are going to be replaced by Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu. I think that it's just, it's a much bigger ecosystem.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But not a futurist or somebody knowledgeable like you are. What would you like it to have been? But here's what I feel. I know you have a theory. There's no expertise. What I'm observing is that what we finally get is...”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Transgressive? It still showtime or HBO, but it's also Netflix, but it's also FX. But it's not Fox or NBC or ABC. But here's where broadcast is still exciting to me. Because it is still the place where the most people will come at one time to see a show, but it also is still free television, which means that it reaches a lot of people that actually aren't watching cable and digital still. And I still feel driven by a sense of mission to tell these stories about, I mean, to tell gay stories, to tell stories about marginalized communities on broadcast television where it really is going to make a difference to the lives of the people who are being represented and the people who don't know us. So I still think there's something to say.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You just don't care. Just whoever will. I don't care. I really don't care. I mean, there are some places where I can tell certain stories and some places where I can tell other stories. So I care to that extent. I want to do something that's more sexual or transgressive or this or that. I can't do that on broadcast. So I care that there's a place where I can do that. But where's that?”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think that broadcast television needs to evolve. I think that the way that it used to be made is irrelevant, but I don't think it's dead.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's not. There was an article this morning And it was one of those is really surprising, but it seems like broadcast is still the place to get more people to see your work than any place else.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I do and I don't. I think only about my stories. I think about the stories I want to tell, but I don't presume anything about where I'm going to be able to tell them what the platform is going to be. And I now look at those platforms as every bit as viable and relevant and dynamic as traditional broadcasts. But I also really still believe in broadcast television. And people make all of these proclamations a couple of years ago broadcast television was dead. It's going away. It's going to be replaced by this or that. It is dead.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I did create your first Twitter account and got you the good name that you got. But at the time, I remember being, we were all up in San Francisco and Jennifer was there, a whole bunch of people. I'm like, you got to get on Twitter. You got on Twitter. And they were like, Twitter, what the hell is that? And it was one of those conversations. Now, Twitter's not progressed as a business, but it's certainly progressed as a relevant communications vehicle. How do you look at those? Are you thinking of going to do you imagine Netflix is easier now, but two, three or four years ago, Netflix was called Lithuania by the head of Time Warner? Do you think about that when you're as a creator?”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I look at it in a very particular way because I know who I am and what I do. I'm a writer and a content creator. And I think we always knew that digital media was going to encroach on traditional media and become a part of it. I think that it's easy to say now in retrospect, but I suspected that it wasn't going to be separate. It wasn't going to necessarily take it over. There would be just more of an evolution. And what we see happening now is that all of these digital platforms are just becoming new places for storytellers to tell stories. There are many more things too. But whereas when we first started talking about digital, the kind of superstars of film and television weren't going anywhere. Near them. Now everybody wants to be making content for certain digital platforms.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It will certainly be a more representative and inclusive show in every way, racially, ethnically, economically, and in terms of representing the spectrum of sexual orientation and gender identity. It will be more inclusive.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I'm not sure that I even know. I think that somebody else is going to get to say what those topics are, but certainly we're going to talk about the world as it is now. I know that here's what I know will be different and that will be more mindful of. And these are things that we talk about, what I've talked with Showtime, I've talked with my partners, I've talked with writers who've come in with takes. On the project. The show will be more inclusive. There will be more of what usually is called diversity. You and I had a conversation.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You never know when anything is coming until it's written, and right now that's in the process. But I'd like to think that within a year.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There will be a whole new ensemble built around these three characters. It should feel seamless. Any of the original characters that aren't dead could theoretically come back.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And they will be in it. They'll reprise their characters. Tell the story of where their characters are 10 years later and provide the continuity and”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Jennifer Kate and Lisha, who kept it alive, all of these years, who really I credit with just pushing me and fanning the flames, are my partners and the four of us are executive producers.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Would say yes, although we can't. I mean, we're not allowed to talk about sexual orientation or gender when we hire. But if I had to imagine the Lord writer, she would be a young lesbian.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And he said, hmm, that's interesting. And again, like handmaids, it suddenly felt a little more urgent. It felt like... This isn't happening, and we've got something to say. And he called me back a few days later, and he said, okay, we're in. Let's do it. And I'll also say that when I proposed that to him, I said to him, I can't do it, by the way, because I have an exclusive overall deal at Fox, but I want it to happen. And I think it should be done by a young woman who is as young or younger than I was when I first did this and who has something to say about what's happening in the world and who knows more about what's happening than I do because I'm old and married now.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And just as it was happening, it was about to debut, and we knew it was going to be important and powerful, I called my friend at Showtime, Gary Levine, and he picked up the phone and he said, I know why you're calling. You're calling me to rub this in my face. I wish that we were doing Handmaid's tail. We should never have passed. And I said, well, you're right. But no, I'm calling you to say, what do you think about rebooting the L word?”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Where is it? So, what happened is then Trump got elected, the handmaids tail went on the air, and suddenly it was the most relevant show on the planet. It is. Let alone on television. And it was everywhere.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I think that even when things were looking better and we had some democratic administrations, we were still fighting all the same battles. And the opposition was still trying to take us down and take away our rights. And it was, you know, I mean, the handmaid's tale will always be pertinent because it's such a great piece of literature. As a story, it'll always be relevant. It was a great story and a great story to tell, even if it was... More speculative and reflective”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I thought he'd made such good decisions that I just sent him an email. I bypassed my agents and managers and I said, I'm not going to arbitrate for credit. You really deserve this. And it's really good. And he wrote me back the next day and was kind of stunned.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I probably would have done something differently, but only because I'm a different writer. But what happened is, you know, when that happens, there's always, there's an arbitrary... But he took it over and he wrote it, or rather rewrote it because he knew where he wanted to go with it. And there came that moment when I had to read his script and I hadn't seen the show yet. And I was thinking, I'm going to arbitrate and get shared credit for this because I put 10 years of my life into it and I want it. And I read his script, and I've been through a lot of arbitrations, and I know how my guild works, and I knew that I would win that credit arbitration because the first writer always gets kind of a privileged position. But I read his script and I thought it was so good.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, he's really, really good, and he's doing beautiful work, and he's a lovely and gracious guy who also recognizes that he's doing a show that should be done by a woman. And he's made sure that there are a lot of women's voices, including the director who directed that first fabulous podcast.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I couldn't do it. So we're ordering it straight to Sirius. And I said, that's great, but I can't do it. I'm exclusive to Fox. And he said Damn, we're going to have to find another showrunner. So I maintained my position as an executive producer, but I couldn't run the show or indeed figure out how to make it into a television show. They hired a guy called Bruce Miller, whom I had never heard of. And he did a fabulous job.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And Empire blew up. And I made an exclusive overall deal with Fox because Empire was big and I figured I'm going to be doing this for a while. And then the head of MGM called me and said, I just gave your handmaid's tale script that you wrote for Showtime to Hulu, and they're ordering it straight to series.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And so Showtime, we almost got there. They said we really love this. I think we're going to make it, but maybe not. And then they passed, and I took this job at Fox running somebody else's TV show.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, 10 years ago, I wanted to do it just because it was a cool idea. I was doing the L word, I was thinking, I want to make another show for showtime that's about women, that's about the themes that I care about, but I want to do something quite different, and I love science fiction or speculative fiction. And I've always loved that book. It was a seminal book for me. And I just thought, this is a television show, and nobody's making TV shows like this right now. Let's try it. So it was just inspiration at the time. But by the time we got these rights, we went back to Showtime. They wanted to do it. I wrote a script for Showtime, and it was still the same. It was just, this is a cool idea. This would be a good TV show. But Showtime passed on. Barack Obama was still president.”
2017-10-11 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Ilene Chaiken, showrunner, ‘Empire’ · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT