YouSaid · the spoken record

James O'Toole

lines on the record: 76
first: 2019-09-04
most recent: 2019-09-04
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“If they want to contact me directly, just go gym at james otool.com. All right. If they want to contact me, I'll be happy to respond.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's going to be far better, I think, if people can see that in their own self-interest, the corporations can see this and start paying attention to the needs of their employees, the needs of their customers, the needs of the host communities to behave ethically, and that they will see that in the long term, not only will they be better off in their companies, but our nation will be better off and the world will be better off as well.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In my youth, I was a bit of a libertarian in my youth. I've outgrown it. But there's still a little bit left of me in that. And I'd rather not have the government do it. Because if the government imposes it in a regulatory fashion, it won't be done as well. It will be back to compliance. We'll do just enough to comply to the law.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, if you look at talking about the governance of corporations, when you ask the vast majority of Americans, you say it's not Elizabeth Warren, it's not a Democratic proposal, but just lay out what she's talking about.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And, of course, social pressures are increasing. The business roundtable would not have said those things if there were not pressures coming from somewhere. Political pressures and social pressures as well.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of companies, people who do startups, the entrepreneurs themselves, have the greatest opportunities they have historically because it's their company. They can do these things. If you're working for a company that's not doing these things, but it's a small enough company and you can come to your employer and you can get them offline and over a beer and talk about, have you heard about these benefit corporations? You've heard about these companies who are doing this. Wouldn't our company be better to try to educate the entrepreneurs in them in that way? And I think a lot more of that is happening today too. So I'm trying to be very positive about this.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I think that they should take a look at to get certified as a benefit corporation to be certified. That's the best way to do it. Is look at what you have to do. And it's a real tough test. And there are a whole bunch of hurdles that you have to pass. You have to ask yourself, can we pass this in our company? Can we do this in our company? I think that owners...”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And in many cases, those young people really are committed to doing the right things. So it may well be that we are reaching some kind of a tipping point. It's a long way off with publicly traded corporations. But publicly traded corporations are still the minority in our society. Most companies are family-owned, most companies are owned by individuals, are they owned as partnerships? And in those companies really are free to do the right thing because they don't have that short-term pressure to maximize profits. And in many cases, I think more and more of those people are attempting to do it. So that's the positive side of all this. On the other side, in terms of publicly traded corporations, I think there's a big difference between what people say and what they do”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And if you speak to the people in the B Corporation Benefit Corporation movement, They are all really concerned that we not write them off for just being small companies because they believe that a lot of these companies now are growing and they're going to be large and they're going to be successful companies. And also there is a continual interest in worker ownership, an increasing amount of worker ownership, particularly in small companies. That's also a very important thing in terms of building the sense of community that we talked about. They're social entrepreneurs as well too. A lot of people now, particularly young people who are getting MBAs, are getting degrees in social entrepreneurship.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, and they're subject to more abuse. This contractor thing that's driving me crazy, Casey Newton of the Verge wrote great pieces about content moderation at Facebook. And it's my, you know, they're paid not well. They have terrible work. The work is hard enough, even if people work for the company, you'd have to really spend a lot of time helping them. But they certainly doesn't help that they don't work for the company. And if they were side by side with other workers there, they would have different content policies. Where do you think it's going? Let's finish up telling you about Are there really enlightened capitalists anymore? Is it just going to be sort of this artisanal thing on small companies?”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Those employees are not going to pay attention to the needs of the customers, they're not going to pay attention to the ethical issues because they see the owners and the managers are out for themselves and they say, hey, I've got to be out for myself too because they're certainly not looking out after us. So it's highly unlikely that you're going to have an ethical, socially responsible company if the people who are working there don't have a sense of community, a sense of participation and feeling a part of the organization.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“If the employees don't have a sense of community, don't feel a part of the organization, and the organization says that they owe them nothing, they don't owe them training, if you want training or you want to do it, you go out and buy it on your own, you develop yourself. There's no development anymore in these places.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“At that time That nearly 100% of the employees of Hewlett Packer were full time regular employees. That is, they were getting benefits and they had careers. That ceased to be the case.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think you're right. In the 1970s, when I was really very seriously beginning this research, one of the companies that I thought was one of the best companies in America was Hewlett Packard.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, what do you do? This is a group of people who at least talk the talk and have the power in terms of shareholder control and things like that. How do you get? And they do say it to me. I mean, I hear it all the time and I just don't believe them at all. I didn't believe them in the first place, but I definitely don't believe them in the second place. How do you get, you would think that tech would be an industry that does that, but instead right now with the gig economy, where I think Google has more contractors than it has employees, which aren't getting benefits, a lot of these businesses are built on a gig economy model where people, again, don't get benefits, get mistreated, don't get minimum wage, or are manipulated, their salaries are manipulated. It seems like we're headed towards an even worse situation with workers, where they're essentially the fodder, you know, I'm thinking back to that Charlton-Heston movie, Soil and Green as people. You know what I mean? It's all people that they're taking advantage of. And eventually we'll replace them by AI anyway.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Okay, and if this company. Where I was working, the excuse of the members of the board and top management for how we were treating these young women, girls. I mean, they're 15 years old. You would put your daughter in a place like that, was because technically it wasn't a violation of Chinese law. So it's okay because it's not a violation of Chinese law. Not because of the ethical consideration, which is would you allow your daughter to work these long hours in this place at age 15. What happens is compliance drives out ethics”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, most of these, at least the larger tech companies have what they call ethics and compliance officers. And unfortunately, those ethics and compliance officers almost all lawyers. And what happens is that compliance becomes the most important thing and the ethics get for God. That's exactly right. Because they know what the law is, ethics is a gray area. We're not trained as ethicists. So what we do is we just make sure that we obeying the law.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I want to tell you. In China. Right. One of the things I push for is the idea. The only reason I'm saying it is just to create the discussion because they're never going to do this, is having ethics art. Like right now, so many of the things that tech impacts are very similar to what, say, chemical companies or cigarette companies did, the society is getting hurt by their inventions and therefore they should have ethical considerations about how they make. Make things. And so one of the things is have a chief ethics officer, even though I think that person would have no power. Some of these companies are thinking of having ombudsmen lately. I've been hearing that. And I'm sort of like, if they don't have power, what's the difference? It's just a fig leaf, again, on the concept. But I'd hope for more from tech with these issues.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I was on the board of a tech company, and when we went Our motto was we be good Be good. And I want to tell you, he ended up doing absolute terrible things to our employees in China. And we ended up having 15 and 16-year-old girls working 60, 70 hour weeks at the peak times. We be good. It's easy to say.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In the business roundtable, the CEOs in their annual reports for the last dozen years have talked about our people are our most important asset. Our customers are so important. All of our shareholders, we care about the environment, we're doing everything we can. But what they do, in fact, is they do just enough to keep activists at bay and they do just enough to keep themselves from getting a bad reputation. But they're careful not to go so far worried about the Bill Norris kind of situation or the John Mackey or Paul Pompe going so far as to alarm the shareholders that they're actually spending shareholders' money on doing good, which was not the purpose of the corporations.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, but I think a lot of it has to do with who are the leaders in the tech world. These are people who got to where they are. Because of their technical brilliance, not because you're great business people to start with, particularly, nor were they great managers, nor were they perhaps most of them don't even have MBAs. I mean, they came from engineering backgrounds, most of them. This kind of thinking is quite different for an engineer. And I think that that's really been the major source of resistance there. In terms of back right to where we started, about companies all saying the right things, Almost every company.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“As it happens when you don't do that. So tech companies always talk about it like a peloton just went in their public offering. They have all these words of what they don't do. We're doing good. We're creating community. Techum is more than anyone try to pretend that they have other things besides doing what they do. And at the same time, they preserve a lot of power in the hands of the CEOs so that they're not accountable. So if their aims aren't ethical, they can do whatever they want. So they have this, they're putting it together in the right way in that shareholders would have a hard time suing them. But at the same time, they're not really doing the words they're saying. One thought tech was going to change this.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The company was a tremendous success as a tech company. But then there were riots in Minneapolis where the company was headquartered. And what happened is Norris said, what we've got to do is we have to start paying attention to the community or else the communities will be destroyed, capitalism will be destroyed and our companies are going to be destroyed. And so he changed almost everything that control data was doing in a way to use their products and their processes to solve business, to solve human problems, societal problems. The problem was he went too far and he took his eye off the ball which was the technology which was the most important part of their business and as a result He was driven out”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, yeah, one of the ones who I have probably one of the longest chapters on is a tech company, which is in some ways the most extreme and the most unusual case that I look at. And that the company is called control data. They were the company that beat Big Blue, in terms of producing the most powerful and the best mainframe computers, Seymour Cray, who was really the founder of big box computers, was working there for Bill Norris at Control Data.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Everyone was predicting that Thailand was going to go under as a product, and it was Johnson Johnson's most profitable product, and that they were going to be in trouble. Because they did the right thing, not only did the product come back, but Johnson& Johnson got even a stronger reputation. But as Burke explained, it was all because of the Credo Challenge.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And one of these was something called the Credo Challenge. And what they were doing, they were taking every employee in the company under Burke. They were taking a day off a year, not all of them at the same time, of course, to discuss the Credo and what it means for their work. Were they living by it and why not, what could be done? And he'd been doing that for about, oh, about eight or nine years before the Tylenol crisis occurred. Of course, when that happened, everybody was ready. They knew how to deal with it. And what could have been a disaster for the company?”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And when he retired, people forgot about it. The Kratos sort of hung on the walls and Johnson& Johnson facilities. Nobody paid much attention to it. But Jim Burke came back and he said, we're going to swear allegiance to this and we're going to build in processes into the company to make sure that we're actually living by the credo.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, with Johnson and Johnson, there were a whole bunch of Johnsons. It should be called Johnson and Johnson and Johnson and Johnson and Johnson and Johnson. It's hard to keep them all straight. But the fourth Johnson, I think he was to run the company, put in place something that was called the J&J Credo. And the J&J Credo listed the responsibilities that the company had to each of its various stakeholders. And there were six or seven stakeholders cited. And the very last one was the shareholders. And what general, he called himself a general, General Robert Wood Johnson said, and what he believed, he said, if we take care of these first five or six, we won't have to worry about the shareholders.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Here you have this opiate scandal that is happening finally, and these companies are starting to pay and may go out of business, may go into bankruptcy in order to pay off the billions of damage that they've done through their unethical practices. Same thing with Johnson and Johnson. Talk a little bit about that. And then I want to get into the concept of where we are from a labor point of view now, because the gig economy is all about taking advantage of workers, it seems like.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“He couldn't handle it. And so, what he decided to do, I'm going to make my own mark. I'm going to maximize profits for the shareholders, and they're going to love me. And the truth is, once he started to do that, the company started to get into ethical problems. They've had one. And look where it happened yesterday in the paper.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I think we're right. But this guy just couldn't take it. I knew him. He couldn't handle it. Burke was a great guy. Yeah.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think it's just human nature. I really do in that, first of all, we don't learn from experience of others. We learn from our own experience. So putting out these examples, you would think, I mean, these examples have been out there and other people could have seen them. I just pulled them all together and do some conclusions, but they're well known. It's a question in some cases of executive ego. For example, in Johnson Johnson, which was in the 1970s and 80s, it was widely revered as the most socially responsible and ethical large corporation in America. And all of the things that Jim Burke, the CEO, had put into place. We're all thrown out the door when the next CEO came in because the next CEO felt that he was operating in the shadow of Burke. He wanted to make his own name.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Lot of the companies you studied very few were tech companies, you were saying before we started. Because right now the economy is changing really drastically. But why, if these are these successes here and there, why doesn't it catch on larger? And then the next part we'll talk about why tech doesn't do that, even though they're among the world's wealthiest corporations, although they talk about doing it, but they don't actually do it. Yeah, why doesn't it catch on?”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Left his shares in a trust for the benefit of his employees and now four, it's now been 1900 to here, get about 120 years, that company has gone through changes of leadership. It is still in the South the leading company in terms of race relations for their entire history through Jim Crow, through all the bad times, blacks and whites were treated equally. They shared the same benefits. worked out in the same gym together. They went to the same health centers together. And the company has a model record of safety and profitability. It's a marvelous company. Hardly anybody knows about it.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We have one other small example of this that's even longer lasting. It's called the American Cast Iron Pipe Company. It's in Alabama, Cast Iron Pipe Company, in Birmingham, Alabama. In the first part of the 20th century. In around 1905 or something like that, a very, very religious man became the CEO of the company And he decided that he was going to make the company a model in terms of race relations, a model in terms of employee health and safety, and a model in terms of environmental impact.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, and Nordstroms has struggled with this. They've really tried to do this, but they never went that step that Spade and Lewis did, which put in that kind of legal protection. So the successive Managers couldn't change what they had. So it couldn't commit. They couldn't commit.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Commit themselves to the terms of this legal trust that Spaden Lewis had put in place. This company now has gone through about, oh, I'd say seven changes of top management, maybe even more, and its values and its principles and its practices are contact, they haven't been changed. And more than that, the company is the largest department store chain in Britain and the one, which everybody says you get the very best service. And so it's a long-term, 100,000 employees.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The John Lewis Partnership in England. Was a company that was owned by the Lewis family, John Lewis Sr. Left the company to his son whose name is John Spaden Lewis. And John Spaden Lewis disagreed greatly with his father because he noticed that his father's prophets were greater than the salaries of all of his employees combined. He said that isn't fair. And he said, What will happen with So he spent almost his entire life time figuring away to transfer the ownership of the company into a trust that would operate for the benefit of first of the employees and of the customers and then later to the communities. And would bind the executives and the future boards and trustees to”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Constitu Thinks it's the right thing. I want to give you one big example of a successful company because it really follows on what we're saying”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Which would be difficult thing to do with the vestiges. And so the concept is that you actually put in place a legal system that allows you to have lots of constituencies, not just because one CEO feels like it or thinks it's the right thing.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, look, you're not paying attention to the environment. You're paying too much attention to putting fresh furniture in the executive suite so they could be sued that way. It's a very, very positive thing. And there's another form of benefit companies which is called B chartered companies. And there are, that's a very, very fast growing movement. And what happens is companies going to get certified as meeting the needs of all of their various stakeholders, all their constituencies. And it's something like LEED in building. It's sort of the standard to show that you know this company really is a good company. It really is a virtuous company if you have this kind of certification. So both of those movements are very positive and they're going very fast. The only problem with both of them, so only shortcomings so far, is that they're mainly small companies.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's right. The kicker to this, which is kind of funny that the shareholders, the only way they could sue is if the managers and the board are acting in ways that are not consistent with the charter”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, you have a charter, a special charter. And most of the states now, I think the majority of states now offer these. And it's one of the fastest growing movements, but they're all small companies. These are companies that have 50 employees, 100 employees. Only a couple are much bigger than that. And the biggest one is Patagonia.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And the legal status of benefit corporations allows the managers and the board and executives to make decisions even when those decisions are not in the short-term interest of the shareholders, and the shareholders cannot sue them using the notion of shareholder primacy.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“They are probably the most progressive company in America. Trevor Burrus And he said that the one thing he knew from looking at the history that I'm writing about. Was the one thing that will kill it, the biggest danger, the biggest risk he could take was to sell even a share of stock to anybody else. He said, because once the shares start to get out, then the power of the ownership will erode and eventually it will be taken over by people who are mainly just investors who don't care about the company. And so he's protected this company that way. Now, the good news that's happening right now. Is that there's this movement called benefit corporations.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“One thing he would never do would be to sell his company or to sell any shares of his company at all. He said, because he believed that the only way in which he could preserve all the good that they do, which is not only for their employees, but also environmentally”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“No. Yeah, yeah, but he's the founder. He and his wife, they still the two of them own the whole thing. They're leaving it to their kids. Their kids work in the company, but they work in their way up through the company. He said that”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Patty going here, he owns everything. He owns it. That's what makes a difference. The CEO has said, and he said this repeatedly”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I've looked at 50 companies mentioned in the book and about two dozen of them are profiled in depth. Yeah, there are some great successes, but there are a few of them. That's the problem.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But they didn't, and they pushed him out. So it was the same situation with Mackie, although Mackie has hung in with Amazon. Amazon is changing the policies at Whole Foods. And in Unilever now is going off on a different course. And the chances of them getting back to Pullman's view are slim to none.”
2019-09-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "The Enlightened Capitalists" author James O'Toole. · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT