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Jessica Weisberg

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2018-06-06
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2018-06-06
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  1. I think the best foods advice I've ever seen was Steve Jobs' speech on dying. Yeah. I think that was, I think about that all the time, all the time. And I don't know why. I can't tell you why. And I was surprised the source. I'll tell you that. And I think we do get our advice from technology giants in a way we probably shouldn't, which is interesting. In any case, would you have any advice for us?

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  2. You know, and it's interesting, so they just it does, it does stop you for a second and makes you not, you know, when you're upset or about anything from work to love to whatever you're like, that's a fair point. I'm gonna die. Maybe not.

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  3. That is the piece of advice. One of the things I've been using a lot is speaking of digital, it's a thing called We Croak, which I talk about all the time. And so allegedly it was $99. And in Bhutan, they think about death five times a day. And so I consider advice. They send you quotes five times a day. Really? Death-oriented quotes. Yeah. And it's really fascinating. This one is, this is from Seneca, so there's five of them a day, and they pop up, and they're quite good. A lot of Joan Diddon, you know, Euripides, this is Seneca, it says the whole future, this was what came up this morning. The whole future lies in uncertainty. Live immediately. I think that's a good piece of advice.

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  4. Sure Have any advice for anybody? Let's see. The best advice I I mean, I would say one of the pieces of advice I read in the book that I think about the most is it was Dorothy Dix, who was writing for women at the turn of the 20th century. And someone wrote to her just feeling really stressed out about all sorts of things about her marriage. And she said something about like, it's amazing what a walk around the block will do. And I was like, that's really good advice. Yeah, it is.

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  5. Yeah, absolutely. I think what's sort of, like we started the conversation with Cheryl Stray as a person who sort of divulged so much about ourselves. And to me, that AI will not be able to achieve that, the sort of connection with another person, the sort of deep pen pal type relationship that some advice givers were able to give their readers. That seems unachievable with AI, even though there is, I understand, a sense of connection that people can have with AI. But that, the idea that learning about someone else's experience and seeing yourself in their experience, that I feel like that will not be available. All right, all right. We'll see what happens.

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  6. In terms of just information, it'll be better. In terms of information, you will understand your patterns. They'll understand what you want. I think you can get to points of machine learning or advanced artificial intelligence that will be quite strikingly. Sympathetic or at least mimicking sympathy or something. And then, you know, you wonder if there's a feeling computer, like if there's a feeling, or there's parts of your brain you can access. There's all kinds of, you know, I just interviewed Michael Pollen about LSD and how to change moods. And that might be the way it goes. It might be chemical and digital the way we feel better about love or whatever. I don't know. I don't know. But you can start to think where it could go.

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  7. Somewhat impossible in our society No, I don't think so. And I think computers will be giving the advice at some point and probably good advice, probably better advice than people in a lot of ways. But then you lose the heart of it. Like AI can really mimic people really well over time.

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  8. I think that's harder to imagine now, I think that because just the it's harder to imagine one person being trusted by so many different segments of the population, which isn't to say that everyone trusted. A lot of people thought he was, I mean, he got a lot of Really disliked him and thought he was too liberal, but he was very, very trusted by huge swaths of the population. And the idea of one person achieving that sort of For people to sort of circle around one person seems somewhat impossible in our society today. What do you think?

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  9. There's tomb stars. There's the YouTube stars, and of course, there's Oprah, and then there's all the advice givers who sort of fall under the Oprah umbrella But other than YouTube starters, Dr. Phil, Martha Beck, who I write about in the book. So there's Oprah, but other than that, it's just everyone. It's celebrities who offer advice on their Twitter feed and YouTube stars who offer advice on a variety of formats. And it's Quora where I think people, it's like it's really for advice.

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  10. Oh, yeah. Think the history of advice is also the history of media, and I think it's headed in the same direction that media is going, which is chaotic, and that this sort of standards and taste are just becoming more fragmented in terms of what people are seeking and what we consider quote unquote good. I think that's happening in every way in the media.

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  11. So, what do you imagine happening? Because then you could think of AI, all kinds of things. They can give you advice too. Oh, yeah. Computers can give you advice and probably better advice than people in lots of ways. Or statistically speaking, if you do this or you do that, where do you imagine it going? Where advice is going?

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  12. Yeah, I think it's very, very individualized. You go online and you Type in whatever search terms that you are inspired to type in, and you sort of go down the rabbit hole that you've found for yourself. And what's interesting is that on the one hand, it's this idea of you can be connected to anyone, anyone in the world, but it's such an individualized experience. You're not necessarily the answers you're seeking aren't necessarily sort of corresponding with the answers anyone else with the same problem is seeking because they're such a cassinity.

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  13. I mean, it's interesting because I think it has degenerated conversations, degenerated advice, and people are confused almost continually. Yeah. I feel that way and I'm an older person. But, you know, my kids, it's a very, there's no central advice. Situation anymore, where there's no one you trust to give good advice, maybe Oprah. I'm trying to think.

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  14. Ideas of advice that sort of older people gave, even if it was sort of very strict in terms of how people should behave, that the intention of creating those standards of behavior was a good intention, even if it also did restrict the way it made people feel bad about it.

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  15. Yeah, and she's great. And she talks a lot about how she wishes people were a little less honest online and that she sees sort of etiquette as sort of a way to combat bigotry. And I think that just the changes of online and just how big of a cesspool it became made me sort of relate more to the sort of formalized

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  16. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that sort of raised the stakes of the book for me was when, or made me relate to the people I was writing for, was when President Trump was elected, I thought a lot about how there was suddenly people in real life and on the internet saying things that were just so bigoted and so hateful and that these advice gifters, while they were trying to censor people, they were trying to create, like it was in the name of people treating each other civilly. And I, one of the people I interviewed for the book was Miss Manners, Judy Manners, who's wonderful.

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  17. At the same time, though, it does free you from other things, which is behavioral, like that you don't behave, because let's talk about that because the internet's gotten out of control. I think a lot of people feel, you know, not just the stuff that's happening falsely, the false news part of it, whatever the abuse of the platforms. But the idea that it's... It's accessible, really. It's a noise like Twitter. I'm thinking of that, where there's tons of advice on Twitter.

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  18. Yeah, and I think it's that like we all, like none of our communities are perfect as much as we might love them. And then I think what you see over time is that being anonymous is a really freeing tool. And that there's something about being able to escape your own identity that allows you to ask questions that hit a different place than they would otherwise.

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  19. Mm-hmm. Community in an Why that though? Because it used to be your town was like that, and everyone knew what you were doing, but then you were limited by the people in the town and their prejudices or their experiences, essentially.

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  20. But I think that's a really good point about what are people seeking when they seek advice? Are they seeking a straightforward answer? Are they seeking someone just to tell them that everything's fine and the decision they made is valid? Are they just seeking like a community of people who maybe share their experiences? I think it varies. And I think one of the advantages of the internet is that it can be all those different things depending on where you go. If you look at Deer Abbey and Landers, a lot of people over time were really using their columns the way we use a chat room. They were asking questions and then hoping that another reader would answer them, not necessarily dear Avier and Landers. Right. And I think that's what the internet provides. It provides community and community in an connection and in a somewhat anonymous setting.

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  21. I would always be fascinated by why people are stringing words together. What do they want? Like, I think it was like searching. I mean, I know it sounds, they are search, but advice is searching for an answer kind of thing. And I was always like, there was one that was like Clydesdale horse, Mars, and some other thing. I'm like, what do they want? What are they looking for? And so I started to, I remember sitting there in this lobby going.

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  22. Oppressive ideas about how we should live. Because, you know, again, when you think about Google, it just literally, it's everything. And the story I was thinking about is when I was there, I was there in the early days when they were doing it. But one time I was sitting there and they started to do this ticker where things would come through, like what people were asking about. And I used to think about it as the database of human intentions. What are they intending to look for? And so they would screen out the porn stuff, which was quite a lot and the queries and things like that

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  23. And now that the internet gives us a more segmented idea of how to live and what's appropriate, it doesn't have that quality. And then the good thing about that is we've talked a lot about norms and how a lot of the norms, the advice givers provided over time were quickly outdated, were somewhat oppressive. And obviously we live in a time when because we have fewer centralized norms, it's how easier to avoid those sort of oppressive ideas about how we should live.

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  24. People in a way that sort of changes, I would say, what advice changes a little bit about what advice was originally intended for. Like when Benjamin Franklin wrote poor Richard's almanac, he wanted to give individuals advice, but he was also thinking about rules to make society better. He was really talking, he talked about how his book was making, he hoped the poor rich almanac would make the economy thrive and would make people harder working.

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  25. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting about the internet as an advice giver? It's an oracle, really. Yeah, as an oracle, is that one of the things I have found throughout my book is that if it took a century or longer for women to be able to give platforms for advice and much longer for people of color to be given opportunities to give advice for a public platform to be given advice. So an advantage of the internet is it's much easier to find people whose experiences resemble your own and the democratic nature of it benefits advice givers the way it benefits a lot of different parts of our communication. And then the other side of that is that we're all seeking advice from different

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  26. We're here with Jessica Weisberg. Her book is called Asking for a Friend. It's about advice givers. And let's finish up talking about the internet because that's sort of changed everything. And it's one big advice giving platform, essentially. And you start with Google, really, which is an advice giver as far as I'm concerned. How do you look at it now? Because it seems like there, and I remember there were tons of companies that started, and I don't even remember the names of all, you know, e-opinions. Yelp is even people giving advice about restaurants. It's everywhere, essentially.

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  27. Yeah, that's like, it's a slippery role because they're not politicians and they're not academics. They're just people who are seeking for advice. So it gives them a lot of flexibility, a lot of moral flexibility. And you see people sort of shifting their values over time to reflect those of the time they're in.

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  28. They're not accountable for what they've said in some cases. They'll make these, like what you were talking about and landers, but staying in a marriage that's dangerous. They're not necessarily accountable.

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  29. And she was also such an inspiring person for people like my mom who didn't know that many women who worked. And I was like, you should work. Women should work. But if your boss makes a pass at you. It's fine. So you read that today, and it's sort of horrifying

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  30. Yeah, and then emotional stuff, I think that there's, yeah, I mean, especially today when anyone can become an advice giver and we don't have, it's not like as much of a centralized role as it was with dear Abby and Landers, if you go looking on the internet, you can find some...

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  31. Yeah, I mean, there were none of the people I wrote about the book I think are unilaterally awful because I just didn't think that would be a very interesting book. But I would say there are advice givers who I think are saying very irresponsible things in very public places and that's been true throughout history. Well, for instance, I see the things, well, just as a contemporary example, I see a lot of things on Goop and I'm like, oof, that's Gwynneth Culture. And I'm like, oh, that seems pretty dangerous. Yeah, yeah. Like a lot of medical.

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  32. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's horrifying that there's like this. I mean, there are early columns by inlanders into your abbey when they're saying that a woman should stay in a marriage. She's being hurt by her husband is quite disturbing. And that's certainly a trend of advice givers The desire to have that role, the role of being the arbiter of what's right and wrong in America, I think inspires some interesting power-hungry people. And you see that there's a tension in all these people between wanting to help and wanting to achieve a very unique kind of power. And I was sort of interested in seeing that sort of balance.

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  33. Those norms Opposed to them, yeah. You ever see the idea of advice skiing as a way to control society? Because a lot of the stay within the, draw within the lines, stay within the rules. This is the way you do it. You can't do this. You can't do that. Absolutely. I read them and I'm like, I can't believe I'm listening to this.

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  34. By them, I mean, one thing that I think that they, one thing I will say is that I have found that becoming an advice giver, advice giving has sort of a reputation for conservatism of saying like this is the right way to behave here. And I think that's why a lot of people bristle at the idea that there are norms and people are censoring you to achieve those norms. But one thing I will say is that if you look at advice givers who stuck with the job for a long time, it has an impact of making people more progressive. Dr. Spock, for instance, who I read about the book, started with a very strict idea of how parenting should work. And by the end of his career, had a much more progressive. And part of that is times change, but part of it is I think they were just exposed to so many different ways of living by the questions that were being posed to them. Yeah. I think it did sort of garner more empathy than they had at the beginning.

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  35. What's interesting about them is they have very similar advice, though, even though they were so competitive with each other. And what interested me about them is that they were giving advice for such a long time, they really see the norms change over the four decades that they were giving advice. They start out feeling one way about

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  36. She applied, and there was a test. Basically, Ruth Crowley, who had been writing the column before her, died unexpectedly, and they had sort of a big test to see who wanted to be fill her shoes. Applied and got the gig, but she had never written professionally before. And she was really overwhelmed and she roped in her twin sister to help her. And then her editors were like, we can't have someone outside the paper reading all this confidential information. Sorry, that's not going to happen. And then Dear Abby was heartbroken because she really loved the job. And then she sort of just browbeat editors at the San Francisco Chronicle to give her a column of their own. And so within six months they were competing with each other and they were the two main advice columnists in America and they weren't speaking for many years and they were always trying to sort of get gigs out from under each other. And they had a very contentious relationship because they both took the same path.

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  37. And they were sisters, correct? They were twin sisters. They were twin sisters. And what happened was they And the woman who would later become inlanders got the gig first in Chicago. And their first few, her first months in the job, she and her sister co-wrote the columns because she was really overwhelmed. She'd never written professionally before.

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  38. And this is the way you behave essentially. You followed along to them, even if you're seeking other versions of advice, essentially. So there were lots of people like Buffri and Landers, all kinds of columnists, the Sob Sister. There's on and on and on. But we get to Anne Landers and Deer Abbey. Deer Abbey being the more important one. And they were sisters, correct?

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  39. It already is an interesting question, but it does go back to the shaman idea, like the idea that there is a priest or a shaman or some, because advice was, as you said, given by religious figures, often men. Yeah.

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  40. So I feel like that because there was so much about the fraudulence of the advice giver, I was sort of interested in another question, which is like the power of the advice giver and the popularity of the advice giver. So I don't look so much into the question of how many of these questions were made up.

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  41. The questions he gets are a mix of things that are presented to him by his sort of drama-seeking editor and questions by real people and the people. Have questions about all sorts of really heartbreaking things, and it sort of strikes the reader that this is the man who's been sort of authorized to give them advice.

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  42. And I mean, I'm sure that's the case. Like, I'm sure that some questions are made up, but I also think that one of the reasons why I wanted to write this book is I felt like all of the narratives about advice givers, like Miss Lonely Hearts, for instance, that great book, is about these people as frauds. And there's a lot of, you know, there's some lonely hearts of people understand contracts. So Miss Lonely Hearts is a great book, and it's about a man who is pretending to be an advice, pretending to be a woman in order to write an advice book, not a Facebook, an advice column for the Lovelorn. And he's in reality, he's sort of neurotic and a chainsmoker and a bit of obsessive compulsive and depressive, but in his words, he offers a lot of consolation to the people who seek his help.

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  43. Because they weren't getting the signals that you said from religion, which they were, but they weren't. And they were seeking other ways to do it. Now, she did this in a newspaper form. She did. Now, were these questions made up? I mean, most people, that's how you think about it when you look at a lot of these things, that they're sort of made up, essentially.

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  44. She was a suffragist and she didn't use her column to talk about feminism in a direct way, but it definitely informs her advice. And yeah, I think she was just like the, but when there's a sociologist couple named Robert Lindz who were sort of studying trends in America and what they found was that Dorothy Dix could influence popular culture more than anyone. Give me an example.

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  45. Absolutely. And so I talk Yes, incredibly popular. Like there was one columnist at the turn of the 20th century, Dorothy Dix, who people said had more influence over cultural norms in America than absolutely any other force.

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  46. That people were sort of interested in advice givers who weren't authority figures as much as someone like Benjamin Franklin was, or Chesterfield was. They were interested in people who seemed like friends.

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  47. Yeah, after there's a few more in the sort of early America, and then I skip to the 20th century. And the 20th century, the section that Anne Landers and Deer Abbey are included is a section about how women were starting to get these roles and why they were starting to get these roles. So were they?

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  48. Oh, I think it's a few things one I think that if you I think having a country without a centralized religion has created space for gurus and created space for people who have unique ways of seeing the world that people want to follow I think that Lord Chesterfield, just to go back to an earlier example, was popular because he came to America during right around the Revolutionary War. And there was just people really open-minded to different ways of living and sort of wanted to break tradition with the UK. And this was an opportunity to think about different ways of existing and different ways of being around people. And I think that tradition continues today. And I also, one of the things I read about in the book is that the popularity of this form just really reflects the fact that

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  49. There's a lot of people who Dale Carnegie, it just goes on and on and on. And, you know, who moved my cheese? It goes all the way up through in between. Is it an American thing or is it, I don't feel like Europe has a lot of advice givers?

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  50. And then there's another guy, Michael Corda, who wrote advice books. One was called Power and one was called Success. And similarly, they're funny, funny books, but they're treated as sort of serious advice books. Sure, sure. So he definitely set America on that. He definitely gave a lot of advice givers the idea that their work needed to be funny and landers and dear abbey are also really known for their pithy one-liners. Right.

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