YouSaid · the spoken record

Jon Hirtle

lines on the record: 86
first: 2019-05-06
most recent: 2019-05-06
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“Well, I do think that the combination of enhanced indexing thirteen F and concentrated long only are all alpha strategies where we have differed over the years as we spend more time on manager skill and a little less time on dynamically shifting allocations. So the evidence is that in our opinion is that unless they're very strong signals this tactical asset allocation stuff is very hard to add value on. So we do not want to abandon it because it's critical for risk management and there are times when you have a strong signal. So we're watching it all the time, but our day-to-day experience is that that is more stable and we're spending much more time finding skill.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Little Beach depends on the publicly available information. And a lot of times we may not have money with a manager that we think is well suited for the 13F strategy, but it's public information.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What we are focused on is that these tend to be crowded trades. So we've got some overlays on there to watch against the downside of everybody heading for the exit at the same time.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“As good at shorting stocks on average, some are good, but not as good on average, and from our standpoint as a CIO, the fees are high. So what if we could pick their brains for their long only, forget about their shorts, and pay them a lower fee? So that's a 13F strategy, right? Which a lot of people have been using for a long time, and we have our own version of that. And so that's another way. And we're able to do that at a very low fee. We think that's another way to add value. It tends to be more constant. It's not as concentrated, but we like that.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You're picking from it doesn't make any sense, right? And yet the industry keeps talking about that. So we want to be very different. So we can control the tracking error if that's required with our broad market exposure. But when we're paying someone active fees, we'd like them to be concentrated. So we're talking about portfolios that have 12 names in them, 15 names, and instead of 50 or 60 or 70 like most long-only guys have. And lots of the managers that we've picked have added a lot of value, but they do have a lot of tracking error. And the client has to know that, and we have to prepare our clients for that. And then it goes on from there. We believe in hedge funds. Well, let me take another step back. One of the things, if you think about cost control, pretty good data out there that long, short managers, and I'm sure you know this, are good at picking stocks.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So that's the first level is how do we enhance the broad market exposure. Then the next one which I think is something that I feel really good about is concentrated long only. And I really think there's a tremendous disservice that has filtered into the endowment in family investment world that came out of the pension world. And in 1974 when Arissa was passed and corporate officers became liable for the prudent management of the pension fund, pension management became a liability game as opposed to a risk and return game. Which I get it, we're a country that focuses on the rule of law and that's a law. So good. We should solve for that. is a crazy notion unless you're in the investment business when you actually think about this and if you're just a layman and you come in and say well wait a second you're trying to get differentiated returns but you're not allowed to behave differently than the industry”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“If you say to that guy, tell me how you pick stocks, and he says the first thing he says is, well, I pick the top half by ROE, return on equity. Well, he's just excluded 50% of the benchmark. So is he really being picking in that benchmark? So it's that kind of a notion. We did that because we wanted to be able to give the manager more money when he was at the bottom of his cycle. And we wanted to show that he hadn't lost his edge. It's just that his subset was underwater. And so he was fine. And that's why we did that. So that was 15 or more years ago that we started using factors. And we're still looking at factors. But I would really think about it as factor weighted as another weighting scheme. And so we want to look at all kinds of weighting schemes. Families, it's a little different.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Today we're still focused on factors. We think there are some sustainable factors that add value like valuation and momentum and quality. Size is a little more questionable, in our opinion, but we're still looking at factors all the time. We're always saying, is it working? Isn't it working? And the jury's out a little bit. We've been doing this for about 20 years. And that's a long story too, how we got to that. We were really trying to measure long-only managers more effectively. So we started to create a custom benchmark for every long-only manager that really was made up of the first five screens they did before they picked a stock, which we thought defined a subset or a micro beta. And once we started measuring them against that, we said, you know what? Their alpha is much less. So it's much less downside, much less upside. So if I'm measuring a great high quality or a earnings momentum growth manager against the Russell 1,000 growth, I get a lot of variability there.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The world calls them. I want to think about what it does for my clients. And then I keep thinking about improving that. How do I improve it? For example, might I weight the equity indexes differently? Before I really get active, it's a systematic active. Instead of weighting them simply with capitalization, might I weight them equally? Might I weight them in a way where I just simply try to get away from the ones that are going to go bankrupt? Some kind of a simple way to weight the benchmark differently than capitalization weighted. We call that systematic active.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is you put something in there that dampens volatility so you get a higher price. This is very basic, but I like to think of it in terms of a building block. Because this is one of the other key things is most clients don't really understand how real investing works. They understand maybe how buying a stock works or a company works, but putting together a total solution is not something that most clients understand. So if we can lay it out in an uninterrupted chain of compelling logic, this is what I think about when we hire money managers. And I want to think about it with us too. Is our chain of logic compelling? So maximize the breadth of an equity set. How do I improve on that? I dampen volatility with some income assets. And then I want to put in some things that are diversifiers. So right there, I've thought about three framework, a taxonomy, growth, income diversifiers. So I want to put everything into that category, not by product name. I don't want to think about what...”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We start with the notion that the law of active management, skill equals success times the breadth of your opportunity set. And I think this is underappreciated. In that simple algebraic equation, success equals skill times breadth. So breadth is just as important as skill. As long as your skill isn't zero, right? So while everyone out there is trying to get more skillful, including us, if we can maximize breadth, which we should be able to because we sell no products and we have lots of purchasing power, that's an edge. Now that doesn't mean we invest in everything, as you know, but we want to look at everything. So maximizing breadth. So we really start with the notion that most people need to have equities in the portfolio because it's the only way to provide enough return to offset their spending requirements and inflation and taxes for families. So you start out with sort of the all-country world index, the widest, broadest index you can. And then you say, well, how do I improve it? Well, the first thing you do.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, it's evolved over the years. It's hard for me to reflect every point of it other than we believed in specialist managers, we believed in patients, we believe cost mattered, so we didn't want to overpay. That's an ongoing lesson we see that all the time, and we talk about that more. And we wanted to have custom solutions. That was the other thing, is that every client, you had to solve for that client's needs. And I think it's true in any case, we use medicine as a metaphor a lot because as long as someone's healthy, the money's very important. Once you get sick, the money becomes less important. But while you're healthy, it's really important. It's that significant. It's that serious. So when I look at wellness, wellness is different for every person. And so that was another key notion. Custom programs, open architecture, wholesale access, just put it all together as a program. It's sort of like, once again, using that sports metaphor. It takes a lot of part.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Because the thing is, with most specialist managers, they believe that their asset class is good no matter what. I always say it's like asking a potato farmer what's for dinner tonight. There's going to be potatoes on the menu at some point. So you really have to have a broader view to say, yeah, this guy's great at what he does. So what he does right now is getting a little pricey.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You and I have been in the business a long time, and it's an ongoing battle to decide whether you can add value by dynamic allocation. And where I am on that is that you can, if you are careful when you do it and you respond to very strong signals. So it may happen once every 10 years, but if you can avoid a bubble by doing that dynamic asset allocation, it's hugely impactful, especially in our world where we're managing serious money for families and for endowments and foundations and pension funds. The first rule is don't lose the money. And so how do you lose money? You walk into a bubble. So you've really got to have a sense of where the value is and when within like one standard EVA, one normal where values are kind of normal, you probably can't add a lot of value through a dynamic shifting of allocation. But it's part of the process. And so if you have that discipline process for risk management,”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Those two pieces of structure, the specialist manager's easy to understand, one shop being broad to Kathleen at Goldman, you are a sprinter, or you're going to find the sprinter, the high jumper, the long jum What's the structural advantage of dynamic asset allocation? Because a lot of the models you hear about don't include that as a component of their strategy”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“First time. And we said, How can we emulate the structure? Now, he also had The metaphor I like to think there is no matter how hard we worked, it would be like a decathlete. You know, we were trying to do ten things, and he had 10 specialist athletes, and I'm competing with 10 specialist athletes. So no matter how good I was, I couldn't do that. So his security selection was better than ours was. And in addition to that, he had a disciplined process for managing risk on top of that. So dynamically shifting among the specialist managers. So that fundamentally is a better structure. We haven't gotten into philosophy at all, which is a separate issue. But structurally, we wanted to replicate what I would call the indisputable advantages of an independent multibillion dollar investment office structure.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, structurally, when I think about any performance-oriented organization, I like to think about structure. Culture is part of that, but structure, culture, then philosophy, and then execution. So if I think about a sports team, I think about Howard the New England Patriots structured, how does their draft work? How is their comp system work? How is everything? Then what is their philosophy? What is their philosophy of offense? What's their philosophy of defense? What's their philosophy in special teams? Then there's execution, right? So you still got to catch the ball. You still got to look off your receivers. You still got to do that thing. And what I think a lot of people, they conflate those. And of course, the fourth thing is luck, you know, random outcomes. And what we want to be able to do is look back and say, how do we optimize our decision making? How do we set up a system that allows us to make better and better decisions with high probabilities of success? So when I looked at Arthur Miltenberger's model, it was a structural thing first that I said, wait a second, this guy can cherry-pick best-in-class managers from around the world, and he's got $3.5 billion of purchasing power, which is a lot of money today, but it was even more money in 1984 whenever we looked at this for the first time.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Than independence matters, and if you can do better in leafy bucolic, Pennsylvania than you can on Wall Street, maybe that's a good thing for the client. How did you think about kind of the core investment problem?”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Nope, we had no clients. And part of that was that Don Callahan and I had both had great experiences at Goldman, and we didn't want to take any Goldman clients. So philosophically, we didn't want to do that. Second, we actually didn't have a solution set up yet. It was very early on. We had a joint venture that helped us get started with SEI. And Al West was very kind to us and helped us get started. And it was about a year before we had our first client.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The client is a noble cause, which is a great answer. So I said, okay, so often running and trying to do well by the client. And in spite of ourselves, because we were all trying hard, I felt like we were disappointing the clients. And when I saw Arthur Miltenberger outperforming consistently. So it wasn't just once in a while, wasn't random. There was something going on there really was drawn to that because if the client was a noble cause, I need to have the best system to make sure we didn't disappoint the client. And that's really where the beginning of Hurdle Callahan came from was emulating the independent investment office. How do you create a multibillion dollar independent investment office?”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Internal investment office at a family, and the family was the RK Mellon family, the RK Mellon branch of the Mellon Bank family, and I believe in those days it was the foundation and the family, and the chief investment officer was a guy named Arthur Miltenberger, and I covered him as a broker. And what was interesting was that they were consistently outperforming us. So Arthur, who was based in Leafy Ligoneer, Pennsylvania, which is really a bucolic setting, was outperforming Goldman consistently. And that really baffled me. And if I take a step back, the day I showed up for work, my mentor, Bill Groover, I said, ran the training program, I said to him on the first day I was there, what's the noble cause? And he had been a submarine officer and I was a Marine, so he knew I wasn't kidding, and he didn't say, what do you mean noble cause this is Wall Street? He said.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was there six years, 82 to 88, and while I was there, I just, as I said, had a great education. I was close to the head of research. It was a nine Bill Keeley, Lee Cooperman was the strategist, but Bill ran the department, and I was close to him. And I was curious about real money management. Because in those days, it was a simpler world, stocks, bonds, and cash US. I was a broker. We had people talk about a lot of the divisions later, like PCS and GSAM. There were basically bankers, traders, and security salesmen, you know, brokers. And I was a securities sales guy. So the good news is I was a generalist. I mean, really, I was in option strategies. We sold fundamental stock research, municipal bonds. I mean, it was all over the place. So the training was really spectacular. But what happened was while we were there, I was able to cover lots of different accounts, including one particular”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“A couple of things he said that stuck with you. One was that there are three things you have in business, people, capital and reputation. And of the three, the hardest to replace or one's damage is reputation. He also used to say that some people grow and others just swell. So those are words to live by. So he set the tone culturally, tremendous professionalism, and rigor on learning your craft, which was the put a lot of effort into training. Bill Groover, who later became a professor at Bucknell, but he ran the training program. And you sat on every desk and you learned with the practitioners and you didn't leave the desk until they thought you knew enough. And you also established relationships with all those professionals so that once you got in the field, you could call back and have a question. So it was good. We used to have meetings that started at 8 o'clock on Friday evening.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It was terrific. I feel very, I mean, I keep acting like that was great. It's true. I feel like I've been relentlessly pursued by good fortune. I was at Goldman and Goldman's a wonderful firm, but I personally think, and I know they're more profitable today and so forth, but that that was a golden era for Goldman Sachs. It was run by John Weinberg and John Whitehead, but other leaders like Bill Groover and Roy Zuckerberg and Richard Mitchell and so forth. And Whitehead and Weinberg were greatest generation, World War II veterans. John Weinberg was a Marine. So it just had a tone of professionalism and client centricity. And remember, Goldman was very much an investment bank. So it was relationship driven as opposed to later on. And like I say, it's still a wonderful firm. But when the J. Aaron people took over, it became more trading focused. And so when I was there, it was still very much relationship driven. So that was the fundamental culture. John Weinberg used to say,”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What should I do next? And I heard that you could make $100,000 a year working on Wall Street, but you couldn't get a job. And I thought, hmm, I don't really know what they do on Wall Street, but I'll bet I can get a job, you know, is sort of one of those things, and that's how the transition happened.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, you know, I didn't really think of it that way. I thought I'd stay as long as I was having fun. So I just wanted to be a Marine and I didn't really think about career. I earned a regular commission, which is something that honored graduates get when you come out of training, so I could have stayed forever. But I also got married and had a baby. And the idea of being the first guy on the beach didn't see quite as responsible as it once had. One of the things was I was sent on recruiting duties, so I was recruiting officers. And I was away from most of the other Marines. And the best part about being a Marine is being around other Marines. So I was sort of halfway out the door and went on recruiting duty and went to graduate school and I was thinking about”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Lucky and fortunate and grateful about being an American. And the notion that citizenship is a responsibility that we all have. And what does it mean in the 21st century to be a citizen in a society that is as diverse as ours is? And so when you become a Marine, you take an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies born and domestic and so forth. And when you leave active duty, you don't untake the oath. I just read a great biography of Lincoln called Founder's Son, and he felt very compelled to move the experiment of democracy forward. And I think more of us need to think about that, that this is still an experiment, and we have an obligation to our country to move it forward.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“If I could live up to the other Marines' expectations, that I had to become a better person. So it's just this notion of personal standards and leading by example. That's basic. That's foundational. I think of that as to be. You have to, who are you? What's the integrity that you bring? And that's the first part of my framework on leadership, which is to be, to see, in other words, have a vision that compels people and then to serve. So once you have people who you are leading who agree and are excited about the vision, first of all, they trust you because of your personal integrity. Second of all, you articulate a vision that they are excited by. And then the third is, how can I help you be successful and root that shared vision? So to be, to see, to serve. And I think that was a model that I don't know that the Marine Corps articulated it that way, but it seemed very obvious to me. Are there others that you still hold today from that experience? First of all, very”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Become a Marine, that there really isn't any obstacle you can't overcome. Most people under push themselves. So whether it's academically or physically, you can do a lot more than most people realize they can do. And the Marines are not interested in potential, but it's got to turn into kinetic pretty fast. Potential that stays potential, they're very blunt about it. It's not really any use to them. So I think that notion of action and results and high personal standards and idealism and teamwork. And I think teamwork is something you don't see as much in society today, more and more focus on the individual. But individuals don't put a man on the moon. So the great things that are accomplished by teams. And what were the key leadership lessons you come across former people in the military, especially the Marines, that just have this training that you don't often see in the corporate world? The first thing you start with is this notion of leading by example. So as an officer, I always thought that”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“John, great to see you. Great to be here. Always a pleasure. Well, why don't we dive in on your background if we can go kind of all the way back to the military? Yeah, well, I spent seven years in the Marines and wouldn't swap it for anything. It was a great experience. People say to me, thank you for your service. I always say thank you for paying me. I just had a wonderful experience. What were the most critical lessons you took out of that experience? First of all, it's this notion of reinforcing the notion of idealism and high personal standards and that there's almost nothing you can't accomplish. This is a key to being a Marine. And I'm sure not just a Marine, but any high-performing organization. When you're in training, every day they would give you a task that you thought you couldn't achieve, but they knew you could if you pushed yourself. And then when you achieve that, that was the point, right? They were raising the bar to a level that you thought you could not achieve, but they knew you could. So you achieve it, and then you achieve the next one, and then you achieve the next one. And at some point, you start thinking you can do anything. And then that's when you...”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My guest on today's show is John Hurdle, the executive chairman at Hurdle Callahan Company, a $20 billion outsourced CIO business he founded in nineteen eighty eight. Hurdle Callahan retains the distinction of initiating the OCIO model that's flourishing in the market today. Our conversation covers leadership lessons from John's experience in the Marines and the Goldman Sachs, the Genesis of the Idea to Create Hurdle Callahan, the structure, culture, philosophy, and execution of their investing, John's outlook on emerging markets, the economy, private equity, and credit, and the concept of governance alpha. John has a gift for distilling the investment process into understandable frameworks and analogies that we all can use to communicate with our many constituents. Please enjoy my conversation with John Hurdle.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Hello, I'm Ted Sides, and this is Capital Allocators. This show is an open exploration of the people and process behind capital allocation through conversations with leaders in the money game, we learn how these holders of the keys to the kingdom allocate their time and their capital. You can keep up to date by visiting capital allocators podcast.com.”
2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
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2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
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2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
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2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
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2019-05-06 · Capital Allocators · Jon Hirtle – The Pioneer of OCIO (Capital Allocators, EP.98) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source