YouSaid · the spoken record

Kenneth Berger

lines on the record: 72
first: 2024-05-19
most recent: 2024-05-19
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“So, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Kenneth Berger, B-E-R-G-E-R. So please follow me there. Subscribe to the Ask for What You Want newsletter. And yeah, you can check out my website, kbberger.com, K-B-E-R-G-E-R.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's right. That's right. So, yeah. So I'm working on it in book form, but part of what I've been doing is I realize I want to work on it in community, right? Speaking of asking what you want, right? I mean, for me, it's not just about my vision and my framing, but like I'm a coach, right? Like I'm not just about big ideas. I'm about making a difference for my clients. And so I realized, yeah, if I really want to make a difference with people, I need psychoproduct. I need to get out in the world and test out these ideas and see what lands with people and what's effective for them and what works and hear the stories and sort of really get into it. So that's kind of why I've been putting myself more out there.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“All right. Well, you know, I think for me, you know, Lenny, you are already industry luminary with, you know, thousands of followers. I am, I'm interested in sort of sharing more of these ideas. So if y'all would come follow me on LinkedIn and subscribe to my newsletter, I'm going to be exploring these ideas and sharing more of this stuff because I just am so passionate about it. And yeah, I'd love if you'd come and join me in that journey, bring questions and ideas. And I'd love to talk about this stuff because I just find it endlessly interesting.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, this is actually part of why I started writing this book is because my friends were probably annoyed with me, you know, telling them, have you asked for what you wanted, right? Ask for what you want. Because, yeah, it's the best advice I have is to ask for what you want”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, you know, it's funny. I used to be a big wine aficionado, and I think as with many of us, I am discovering I feel better with less alcohol in my life. And so one of the things I've been picking up is oolong tea. I've got a little cup of Taiwanese Wen Shang Baojong in front of me. And I feel like it's like all the nerdery that I put into wine of like regions and varietals and history and processing, but it's actually good for me. It's like full of antioxidants and makes me more focused and I can drink it during the day. And so yeah, I've been totally going down a nerdy tea rabbit hole. And I recommend it. Taiwanese mountain teas especially.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I also love, I mean, actually, you know, speaking of that, I mean, it's almost two on the nose, but there's this movie Living from a couple years ago, this British actor who's this sort of, you know, he's this sort of tough old, sort of, you know, stodgy government office manager. And he gets diagnosed with cancer. And he has this real transformation where he thinks about, God, I've just been sitting in an office filing papers my whole life. What do I actually want to do with the last months of my life? And he builds this playground for children. And that's actually his legacy. Sorry, actually, spoiler alert. Whoops.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'm a recent tennis fanatic. So it was one of the things I picked up during the pandemic. So I really enjoyed Netflix's breakpoint because it's a documentary on the best tennis players in the world. And it is just, I just find it so, I don't know. It's just.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I also love the 15 commitments of conscious leadership. So I'm pretty sure other guests have mentioned that as well. But to me, part of why I like that is that I think a lot of personal development books are not very directive. They say, oh, you know, just dig deeply and find your truth. And while there is value to that, of course, I think sometimes it's nice to have some direction of, yeah, here's 15 things that generally your life's going to be better if you do them. And so to me, it's a nice balance of embracing the really deep stuff of how to live a good life and be effective in the world and be really directive. Like, yeah, try this stuff. It works.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, you have, I mean, you have, I mean, I mentioned before, but I actually took Johnny Miller's nervous system mastery course. I just wrapped up. So you've had lots of great personal professional development thinkers on the pod. So thank you for introducing you to them.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I already mentioned radical candor. I think that is for sure a modern classic. And I think that whole idea of sort of challenging directly, but caring personally is very much aligned with what I'm talking about, right? Because you need the relationships and you need to actually speak your truth. I love Kim Scott's writing on that stuff.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, but just thank you for letting me share this stuff. It really is my life's work, and I'm very passionate about it, and I hope it's helpful for people. And I'm going to be writing more about it on LinkedIn.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Days or weeks or even hours. And so I really look for a higher bar to say, yeah, like let's look for true long-term sustainable motivation, which means relying on vision, pursuing what you want.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“For me, I'm not a big believer in discipline that I think some folks come to coaching looking for sort of a drill sergeant to say, all right, shout at me and tell me to do better. And I sort of say, yeah, no, that's not how I operate because it's not the discipline doesn't work, right? But it's like people pleasing. It's a short-term coping strategy. Like discipline will get you in the gym for a week, but it's not going to get you in the gym for a year. The people who are in the gym for a year are doing it because they want to, right? There's actually something that's motivating for them in that that's not just, oh, I hate this, but I'm going to go anyway. And so, you know, I try to be really clear with people about that, that I'm not going to be the drill sergeant because it's unsustainable, right? Like someone shouting at you, like is not going to get you sort of moving towards what you want in life over multiple years, right?”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I mean, that's a longer story. I would say, you know, sort of, you know, managing our own fear as a sort of lifelong practice. I'm not going to claim I'm anywhere near done with it. But I guess I just say that I think part of the big shift I see in personal development for people I work with is from saying, oh no, my fear is good, I need it, it's keeping me safe to saying, you know, fear is for when there's a tiger chasing you and there's no tiger chasing me. I'm sitting in my office in a desk chair on a Zoom call. There's no real danger here. And so fear is not particularly functional. And so when they start realizing that, the practice becomes, oh yeah, I'm feeling afraid, but I'm reminding myself there's not a tiger in the room. Like if I really want to sort of get things done, achieve my goals, I need to focus on vision, on what I want to achieve in the world, not on avoiding all these fears. So that's the short of it.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“On vision, based on your inspiration in this vision of what you want. And I think a lot of folks I talk to are skeptical, understandably, because they've operated a different way their whole life. And all I can really say is try it, right? Try following an inspiring vision that's really meaningful to you and just see what it's like to not be sort of living in fear all the time because it is. A big difference, and it's really meaningful, it matters a lot.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I do want to mention something that I hear a lot from founders when I talk about the piece of working through resistance. Because I think a lot of them say, oh, you know, you want me to let go of fear and focus on what I want? Well, I mean, I've been running from fear my whole career. Like that's how I'm so hardworking and how I'm so smart is I'm always afraid I'm not good enough. Am I going to be able to do this job without fear hounding me every step of the way? And I just remember the first time I heard this, it broke my heart. And now I've heard it dozens of times, I'd say. So, I mean, it really is, I think it's a belief that sits deep in the hearts of a lot of us high achieving Silicon Valley tech types of, you know, my fear of not being good enough is what drives me to be great. And I just want to come out here and say there's other ways to motivate, right? You can motivate based on joy, based.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think it's a hard thing to generalize about, but to me, it really is about understanding expectations, right? I guess this is a predictable coming for me, but what do you really want, right? Because I think that often, you know, the founders put together a job description, but then they're faced with a real human being who has real sort of human subtleties and things they're good at and not so good at. And so being very, very clear about expectations and figuring out collaboratively a way to work together that's effective to me is no guarantees, of course, but it gives you a sort of more sure path to having a productive relationship. And it's actually something that I recommend to a lot of founders for maybe their first 10 or 15 or 20 employees of just have like a relationship design conversation with each of them when they're first hired. Because I think a lot of us come in naive the way I did, assuming, oh, yeah, I'm just going to come in and.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“To having healthy relationship. Because if you don't have a healthy relationship with the person you're working for, you're not going to get anything done. You're not going to succeed in any meaningful way.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Me, it really is about the relationship with the CEO or with the founders because that's sort of the root of a lot of the issues that come out of that scenario. Because it's not always you. Like in my story, I think it was primarily about me. But I also work with a lot of founders who are going through a really tough thing. My clue to people who report to a founder is to say, imagine if you're confused about how your founder is behaving, imagine that they're terrified all the time. And see if that makes their behavior more clear because it is scary to be a founder, right? Everything's on your shoulders. And I think a lot of people do feel that sense of high stakes all the time. And so, you know, I think being real about that, of like, what is the state that the person or the people you're working for are in and sort of working within that versus sort of pretending that it's something else or wishing that it were something else is sort of the path.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so that's what's tricky about this, it really isn't about the outcome. Of course, asking for what you want makes you more likely to get the outcome you want, but you don't do it for guarantee of a certain outcome because no one can promise you that, right? You do it so you can stay in integrity with yourself and not suffer through all this. Because at least then I would have said, you know what? Like it didn't work out. At least I'm not sitting here suffering. I can get another job at another startup, right? It's not the end of the world. And I think that the mistake we make is pretending that it is, right? Of saying, you know, going into fight or flight and saying this is like a severe existential threat to who I am and sort of my safety in the world versus being like, yeah, I'm disappointed. I wish it had worked out, but it didn't.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I mean, obviously, broadly, I would have asked for what I wanted, right? And what I wanted was I wanted to do the best work of our life, right? I wanted to have a deep professional partner in the CEO and the rest of the product and management team. And yeah, I wanted to produce great work that people love, right? And that was part of why I was attracted to the culture and the mission and the company. And so this is what's tricky, right? Of course, that's what I would have done. Now, do I know what the outcome would have been? No. I might have been fired even sooner, right? Like they might have said, no, you know, like this is not working out. Let's just be done here.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Totally. One, and to me, the first one is about articulation as well, because I think that if in the beginning it articulated that, yeah, I'm confident, but I actually, I want to do a really good job, right? And I want to have good relationships. So let me think about intentionally how do I create those outcomes. But because I hadn't articulated, that's what I wanted, right? Like it didn't even occur to me, like, oh yeah, I need to do some intentional relationship building, you know, figure out some metrics for success because it's an early stage startup, right? Like there wasn't a ton of sort of process or structure in place, suffice to say. And so if I wanted that, I needed to create it myself. But because I hadn't articulated that any of that was important to me, I just flew by the seat of my pants. And it took failing to get some data to say, oh, yeah, maybe I need to look at this more closely.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But no, like it's real life stuff of like a year of suffering, of pain, of fear, right? Like, I don't want other people to be going through that. And that's why I'm so passionate about this stuff.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Right. And so, of course, I was unhappy with the result, right? Like, why would I have expected anything different? I wasn't the victim. Stuart wasn't the villain, right? Like it was just ineffective asking. And so to me, especially because I was already on that path towards coaching, that lesson hit really hard, right? In terms of like, how do we make this work more sustainable? We stay in integrity with ourselves, even when it's hard, even when it's scary, right? Even when we don't know exactly what the outcome is going to be. And so that's really the story of how I became a coach, right? Of seeing exactly how much I've screwed up at Slack and seeing how much I had suffered and how much a lot of people suffered in these similar circumstances. And all you have to do to turn it around is ask for what you want. So this is why I'm so passionate about this stuff because it sounds so, it can sound so fluffy to say, oh, you know, focus on integrity, honor, honor your desires.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What I really wanted, how I really felt, because it didn't feel safe. I was too scared. I kept it all inside. And it took me six months or a year even after that to really feel safe and okay again, right? It was a serious decompression time. My wife and I had a baby during that time. I was on zero sleep. It was a rough, rough period. But, you know, the irony is that when I actually came out of that experience, like the reality of it was extremely simple, right? I hadn't articulated what I wanted. I hadn't asked for what I wanted. I had not listened to the no's in response to my non.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Said, you know what? Actually, this guy's not such a great manager. He's not so good at product. I'm the one who was on the ground with the users. I know what's right. Against all evidence of the contrary, by the way, is this product luminary, visionary, famous person, right? So, you know, clearly not based on any facts, but it was an emotional issue, right? Of like, I couldn't deal with the reality of what I was doing was not working. And so again, because, you know, I was not articulating what I wanted. I was not asking for it, and I certainly was not listening to the no's. I shouldn't have been surprised when finally the third time it came down, and this time it was serious because we had HR. So it turns out once you hire HR, the firings are final. And so I only made it to a year at Slack. And it was a year of just utter torture because I spent that year being fully out of integrity with myself, right? Never saying.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Now I was scared, but the stakes seemed really high, right? And this is where kind of that deep imposter syndrome set in. I was like, am I even any good at this? Like, should I even be in product management? Am I ever going to work in this industry again? Is this going to be my dark secret that I take to the grave that Stuart Butterfield fired me three times? And so I think what I couldn't be with in that moment was the nose, right? Because I was getting no after no after no after no, you know, from Stuart and the rest of the management team saying, yeah, like what you're doing is not working for us, right? Like your ass are not landing. Like you're not being effective in the way that you want to be effective. And because I wasn't able to hear those no's, again, to that emotional regulation standpoint, I just, I couldn't handle the feelings of like, oh, like maybe what I'm doing is not good enough. So instead of pointing the finger at myself, I pointed the finger at him.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And for me, I love user research, but that was the beginning of my career. I was not interested in going back to that. And what was fascinating was at that point, I was actually able to articulate what I wanted there and was willing to say it out loud. Because what I wanted was, no, like, let's keep me in product, right? I've got an idea for how we can run it. So I wrote up a proposal. I sent it around to the management team. Turns out when you actually ask for what you want out loud, you're much more likely to get it. And so within a week, this new plan had traction with the management team. And I had my old job back again, right? Everything was fine, except, of course, it wasn't fine.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so, you know, as you can imagine, this didn't work very well. Like I was feeling horrible day to day. I was terrified of this guy I was working for. And so, again, I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was when I got fired for the second time, wasn't quite firing. But this time I'd come back from my honeymoon and I had a phone call on Monday that said, you know, seems my product management's not working out for Slack. You know, we're actually just going to get rid of product. You're going to be user research. It's going to be fine.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Risk, right? I'm too scared of what the consequences might be. And so I held all that fear and all those desires. I just want to do a great job. I want us to be awesome partners and build this amazing industry-changing product. And I never said any of that stuff out loud. I just put my head down. I tried to obey.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But obviously, things were not the same as they'd been before. Because in the second era, kind of that, what I wanted was sort of better articulated, more clear. But all of a sudden that fear that had been out of the surface, that insecurity, was now very, very present every day because I was terrified, right? Of like, you know, was I going to get fired, right? Was I going to not, you know, make the most of this opportunity? And so I went fully into people pleaser mode. And so that meant that even though, you know, what I desperately wanted was to have this good relationship, was to sort of, you know, be successful, build a great product, I had a year of one-on-ones with a CEO. I never, never, ever ask for what I wanted. I never said it out loud, right? Because I was scared. You know, I was scared what the consequences were. I knew there were 100 PMs, you know, standing behind me, ready to take my job if the CEO is ever a moment unhappy with me. I said, no, I'm not going to take the.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But the problem was in the first firing anyway, was I had not articulated those goals. And so I shouldn't have been surprised when six weeks into my tenure at Slack, I came back from my backpacking trip with my bachelor buddies, and I had an email in my inbox saying, hey, you're fired, right? It seems like it's not working out. Let me know how you want to wrap it up. So, as you can imagine, I freaked out, right? I loved this job. I loved this company. So I profusely apologized. I said, you know, I'll do whatever it takes. I'm so sorry. You know, I'm going to be committed to turn this around. And so early stage startup turns out firing doesn't always stick. Monday morning, I had my job back.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Instead of getting really clear on what does success look like here or what's your culture or like what are your expectations of me, I kind of just went in and made my best guess and went for it. And lo and behold, turns out like what I came in with that supreme overconfidence was not what they wanted at all. They had kind of been in the trenches, like reinventing from the game, you know, to slack, you know, they'd been through layoffs, really hard times together. So they wanted someone to come in humble and to kind of earn their trust of this kind of core team that had been together for years. And so I just didn't get any of that, right? Like I wasn't, I wasn't sort of hearing that feedback. I wasn't hearing those no's. And I wasn't articulating what I wanted. And what I wanted was really very basic. I just wanted to figure out how to do a good job and I wanted to have a good relationship with the CEO, right? Because, you know, I was working for him and you need to have a good relationship with your boss.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I gave a talk about this sort of right after it happened, but I was fired from Slack three different times, which I feel like has to be some kind of startup record. I don't know who would be the record-keeping body for this. But now 10 years on, I have different perspective, of course. So this was almost exactly 10 years ago, spring of 2014, you know, and I just got in the job as the first PM at Slack. And it was already the hottest thing out there. It was only a couple dozen employees. And I came in excited, but also a little insecure because I just come off kind of my breakup with my co-founder. I just wanted to kind of put my heads down, you know, put my head down and do a good job. I was engaged at the time, so Slack already knew, you know, I was going to be going away on a bachelor backpacking trip. Wedding and hunting moon in the fall. And so I kind of came in kind of naive and overconfident of like, I've been a founder. I've worked on iconic products. I know how to do this. I'm a pro. I'm just going to go in and do the work. And so.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Acceptance of the response is primarily an emotional regulation issue, right? Because once we get our emotions intact, it's just, is it yes or is it no? And if it's no, which it probably is, because most of the time the world tells us no, then the question is, all right, what can I learn from this? What am I going to try next? And so when we're able to emotionally regulate, it's all very cut and dry, right? It's like, okay, here's data for to tell me what to try next. And so really 99% of the challenge tends to be all the feelings that come up for us when we hear no, right? Because we hate hearing no. It's so uncomfortable. And so part of the practice of getting good at asking for what we want is recognizing you're going to hear no all the time, and that's completely normal and fine. It doesn't need to be something so scary or awful.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Respect people's nose, right? And actually, it can actually be more influential, more motivating, right? If someone says, okay, no, I'm not going to deliver this on time. Be like, okay, well, I'm going to give the project to another person. Right? Like, I'm taking your no at face value, and they say, Oh gosh, well, I didn't realize that was going to be the consequence. Maybe I can get it done by that time, right? And so that way you're not forcing them, you're not coercing them, right? You're just saying, no, you said no so that your no is no, and I accept that.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In the way that you asked, right? Which doesn't necessarily mean anything about the next time you ask to a different person or a different way and a different time. And on the flip side, right, in that sort of more control freak mode, I think for them, they'll often sort of kind of skip over the response. Say, well, you know, they said no, but they don't know what they're talking about. Or they're my direct report. So, you know, they have to do what I say. And so these are all kind of fundamentally disrespectful ways to operate in this relationship. And when we're talking about asking for what we want, we're talking about influence. So you need to have good relationships. You can't be influential with bad relationship. And so really accepting the response is about, yes, I'm going to be genuine about what I want, but I'm also going to genuinely care about you and have deeper respect for your sort of ability to consent or not consent to whatever the ask is. Because I think the counterintuitive thing is that often when we really respond to”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Step three is accept the response. And it might seem so simple, right? But it actually is kind of subtle. And so one reason is that idea of the whole body, yes or the hell yes, right? Because I think often we really want a yes. And so we're very, very biased to look for a yes versus accepting no, that was a no, right? If someone kind of made this face, like that's a no. It doesn't matter what comes out of their mouth, right? And so the challenge of accepting the response is often that of, you know, of hearing the no, but not over accepting or under accepting it. Because I think sometimes what people who are really afraid to ask will do is they say, oh, well, that was a no, so it's no forever, and I should never ask again, and my dream is dead, and nothing's ever going to happen for me again, right? And that's because they get so scared, right? But actually, no, like that's overexcepting, right? The no is just from this person right now.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It's a dialectical behavioral therapy. It's related to CBT. So there's kind of rough consensus in the sort of personal development world of how to ask. And really what they have in common is around kind of staying really factual because I think that what can we know factually? Well, we can know our thoughts. We can know our feelings because no one else can know that better than us. And maybe we can trust our eyes, right? Like, you know, what would a video camera have recorded, right? And that's about it. And so I think often we get really distracted by all these stories we have about the data. But when we bring it back to that fundamental core of this is what I think, this is what I feel. This is what I've observed in the world. It tends to make the ask a lot clearer versus these stories. You mentioned of, you know, I feel like you're an asshole, right? It's like, well, that's a story. That's not a fact.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I do. I teach the same thing. And yeah, I think sort of Carol's approach and nonvinal communication. DBT teaches a similar approach they call Dear Man.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I took one of Stanford's T group weekends, summer of 2020, I think a month after George Floyd was murdered and was facilitated by a black woman. And it was one of the most profound transformative weekends of my life. I mean, because T-group's already people rave about them, but having it at that point in history with those people in the room. A lot of tears.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Seem terrified. What's going on? Oh, well, man, like you think your whole professional reputation is staked on this and you're an imposter and they're going to find out and then you'll never work again. Well, of course you'd be scared. That makes a ton of sense. And by embracing that instead of ignoring that and being ashamed of that, that is often how we soften those fears and say, yeah, like I know that's scary, but we also know that's not really true, right? Like you're not an imposter, right?”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I'm a big fan of internal family systems, which is this sort of psychotherapy technique that really talks about parts and the sort of parts of ourselves and the ways in which they don't always agree with each other. And part of why I love this approach is, A, because we already use this language, right? We say part of me thinks this, a part of me thinks that. And really, when I talk about how to work through resistance, really it's about embracing and validating all of our parts because often we're really comfortable with one part of ourselves that we think is, oh, this part is virtuous and good and great. And this part is whiny and bad and not great. And I don't respect that part of me as much. And so really to sort of ask effectively, we generally need to embrace all of these parts and really bring in all the information they're bringing in because if we ignore the part that's really scared to ask, well, yeah, then we're going to stay stuck versus if we come in and say, hey, buddy, like why are you scared?”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Thread down and think about how to be effective that way, we can actually get something really compelling and useful, but it requires actually embracing that part of ourselves that sometimes we're a little bit ashamed of, right? Like, oh, I kind of like that whiny part of myself. I'm just going to push that one down versus actually taking what it has to say as important data.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“To me, complaints are great inspiration. And so I think the, you know, to me, you know, like I love radical candor, for example, right? You know, where I try to go a step further than radical candor is to not just say, hey, here's my feedback, just wanted you to know, but to say, and I want something, right? Like I would like to see an outcome, right? And so I think that to me, it's all about the effective framing that, you know, the complaint is probably not going to be an effective way to do it, but it can be great inspiration to say, gosh, that complaining means I'm frustrated. What am I frustrated about? Let me envision that better future. Let me think about what's an effective way to actually move towards that. What's an effective way to communicate that desire that's actually likely to get me towards a yes? And so when we actually embrace that sort of, you know, frustration, annoying, complaining thing, and follow that.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Totally. Well, and I think there's a balance there as with anything. Is ignoring data and going in gut all the time great? Probably not, right? We use data for a reason. But I think there are all these moments when we are making a gut decision, right? And having all the data there means having the opinion set out loud. And I think often the dangers of people saying, oh, I don't have data to back this up. It's just what I think. And I'm not sure people are going to agree with me. So I'm just not going to say it. And so we don't have the data of all those gut opinions of these subject matter experts in the room, right? Even though that gut information to me is just as important as anything we could get from the SQL database or whatever.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Can't make you do anything, right? It's not my call to make, but man, like, this is really what I want. I'm just going to put it out there and like and ask that I think it feels really vulnerable and uncomfortable to not lean on data as a sort of way of saying, no, no, I'm right. So you should believe what I believe, but just say, actually, I don't know that I'm right. This is just what I think. And I hope that's enough on its own.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Actually, you're giving me deep goosebumps because this is, I think this is a really underappreciated thing in terms of asking for what we want because especially in the PM world, we're trained to look for data, right? We're not just going to state an opinion. We're going to say, oh, the A-B test said this, right? Or like 30% of our users do this, or the ROI on this is X, right? And data is great. Like we love data for a reason, of course. And I think people forget about exactly what you're highlighting that your relationships matter and that just your opinion because you believe something or because you want something, often that's enough, right? Because guess what? You're in a relationship with these people you work with. Like they care about you. Like you have some sort of leverage with them. And I think that often, you know, often people go the other way and say, oh, I've got power. I'm going to try and leverage it. But actually, if you go the other direction and you're humble and you say, I know.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think one of the most important balances in terms of the asking step is both asking clearly, but asking with great humility. And this actually works whether you're in a position of power or not. Because I think a lot of folks will go so far to the end of humility. They say, well, I'm not going to go. I'm not going to say this out loud at all. But in fact, if you're going to say, you know, like I really disagree with this product decision and I would really prefer that we make this different decision. And I know it's not my call and I'm just one opinion and a lot of people are going to see things differently. And that's fine. But it's important to me that you know that, right? And so what do you think? Like, are you willing to reconsider this?”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so, but even implicit in that question, to me, that question of, oh, how do I do it without there being any risk of ever pissing anyone off? Right. That's a piece of the resistance right there. And so this is a great example of the type of work that we have to do, right? Because in theory, asking is easy. Oh, you just try some way and like maybe people are pissed off and maybe they're not. But probably it's going to be fine and you'll have the chance to try again and iterate and learn from it. But often we get stuck so we don't get to go through those levels of iteration because we want to make sure we're going to get the outcome we want. We say, oh, well, I'm not willing to ever piss anyone off ever. And so I'm just going to be stuck at this step because I haven't figured out what's going to guarantee me. And of course, there's no guarantee. We can never guarantee that people are going to feel a particular way. And so part of asking for what you want effectively is actually.”
2024-05-19 · Lenny's Podcast · Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source