YouSaid · the spoken record
Kim Leadbeater
We hold 46 passages that may be Kim Leadbeater’s. We do not publish them until we can confirm who spoke. See the correction.
On the record 2021–2026
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“That would be my understanding as well, but I am not a lawyer. Fortunately, a lawyer just tried to intervene on me, so he might want to step in.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I beg to move amendment 506, in clause 26, page 16, line 7, leave out “in accordance with” and insert “under”. This amendment provides that the offence under subsection (2) applies in relation to an approved substance provided under the Bill.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“That actually comes under new clause 24, which will be discussed in relation to clause 27, but I think it is important to look at the offences in the round. This is the third type of offence. It is a new offence, and it covers cases where a person helps another person to obtain assistance under the Act by falsifying documents to get that assistance or to prevent it from being removed. This is still very serious, and attracts a maximum sentence of 14 years. It will most often be applied where the person seeking the assistance wishes to get round the safeguards. The safeguards must be rigorously enforced, hence the same maximum as for the second category of offence.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“The second category of offences includes “by dishonesty, coercion or pressure,” inducing “another person to make a first or second declaration, or not to cancel such a declaration.” This is in clause 26(1). It is where the criminal conduct has coerced or pressured someone to execute or not cancel the declarations—a step in the process, but not actually ending their own life. It is the second most serious offence, and attracts a maximum of 14 years in prison. The third category of offences involves making or using a false instrument—first declaration, second declaration, medical report or within-six-months-or-less diagnosis—or failing to notify the cancellation of a relevant declaration, with the intention of facilitating the provision of assistance under the Act.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“These amendments to clause 26—and clause 27 to some degree, which I will come on to shortly—are intended to clarify offences under the law. The changes refine the language to ensure that offences relating to dishonesty, coercion and pressure are more clearly defined. The amendments serve to clarify the details of four categories of offences, and I will provide a summary of the four categories. The first category is when someone “by dishonesty, coercion or pressure, induces another person to self-administer an approved substance”. This offence, in clause 26(2), is the most serious offence. It is coercing or pressuring someone to take their own life; it includes coercive control and pressure, and it attracts as the maximum a life sentence—the most severe punishment that the law can impose.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“The hon. Lady is making a point that we have already covered several times in the debate. It is an important point, but I hope that she is reassured by the offences to be included in the Bill, which create sentences that do not currently exist.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I would have thought, given the hon. Gentleman’s views on the Bill, that he would welcome having an actual offence for the purposes of the Bill. Surely that is something that we should all support.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“That is the point I would like to make: the penalty is the same, but it is important that the offence is specific, hence why I have put it in the Bill. The outcome for the criminal involved, however, would be the same.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I beg to move amendment 510, in clause 27, page 16, line 18, leave out “wilfully” and insert “intentionally or recklessly”. This is a drafting change, aligning the wording used here with wording used elsewhere in the clause.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“These amendments relate to the falsification or destruction of documentation and are very straightforward. Amendment 510 makes a drafting change to align the wording of subsection (1)(b) with wording used elsewhere in the clause. Amendments 511 and 512 clarify that the offence under subsection (2) relates only to an opinion about a matter relating to a function under the Bill rather than to the person. Amendment 513 clarifies the scope of the offence under subsection (3) by providing that the offence occurs where a doctor fails to comply with a notification or recording obligation in relation to the cancelling of a first or second declaration. The amendments significantly improve the clarity, scope and precision of the offences in clause 27, align it with the language used in the rest of the Bill and ensure that it is more consistent.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I made some comments about that previously, so I will leave it there for now, but I hope the Committee will join me in supporting the amendments and new clause.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“In combination, amendments 514 to 516 and new clause 24 refine and strengthen the legal framework surrounding assisted dying, shifting the focus towards serious fraudulent misconduct and the falsification of documents, and ensuring that prosecutions are conducted with careful oversight by the Director of Public Prosecutions. These changes mark a clear departure from the original drafting, which focused clause 27 more generally on non-compliance with administrative duties, and introduce more severe consequences for deliberate wrongdoing related to the assisted dying process. New clause 24 is an important addition to the Bill. It creates an offence in respect of certain conduct, where the person engaging in the conduct does so with the intention of enabling another person to obtain assistance under the Act.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“My hon. Friend is making some interesting points, but I think they are probably more relevant to the debate we had the other day on clause 18. Clause 28 is about the prescribing, dispensing and transporting of approved substances, rather than the substances themselves.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I will speak briefly about amendments 485 and 521, on which I will respectfully disagree—not for the first time—with the hon. Member for East Wiltshire. I believe the negative procedure is perfectly adequate in matters of this kind. We had a similar debate the other day. I will also speak to amendments 442 and 445 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for York Central. Although I take on board the comments of the Minister about time pressures, I am minded to support both these amendments. Regulations are important and I have no problem with placing the duty on the Secretary of State in those two instances.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I am not aware of any situation in which we debate the drugs for any other type of medical provision or healthcare. I appreciate the gravity of the situation but, with all due respect to colleagues, we are not best placed to make those kinds of decisions and it is unnecessary for us to have that debate. Clinicians and experts in pharmacology and medicines are best placed to do that, under the guidance of the Secretary of State.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“As I have said, I think the negative procedure is the correct level of parliamentary involvement in that process. Amendment 442 agreed to. Amendment proposed : 443, in clause 28, page 17, line 4, after “substances” insert “as approved through the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and either the National Institute for Clinical Excellence or the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group processes”.— (Sean Woodcock.) This amendment requires any regulations made about the prescribing and dispensing of approved substances to be on substances approved through the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and either the National Institute for Clinical Excellence or the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group processes . Question put, That the amendment be made.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I will be very brief. My understanding is—I think the Minister said this—that the attending practitioner, the medical examiner or anybody else, including family members, could refer to the coroner if they felt it was necessary or suspected anything untoward. If that is the case, I am content that the Bill is fit for purpose as it stands.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I have been desperately trying to find the amendment number—I think it is amendment 500 that looks at what will be recorded, and it covers such data as the hon. Member for Richmond Park is requesting.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“As has been alluded to by various Committee members, I fully support the intention behind amendment 273, but I think it will be covered already. I have mentioned my amendment 500, but amendment 455 is probably more pertinent. It looks at the annual report that the assisted dying commissioner would produce, which makes reference to protected characteristics, and sets out that any other such data can and should be collected under regulations. I am therefore confident that that report would encompass the points made by amendment 273, and that reference is made to the analysis that is covered by amendment 274. I feel confident that the intention will be met by the introduction of the voluntary assisted dying commissioner, but I wholeheartedly agree that data collection is a fundamentally important part of the process.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I thought we were going to get a full house with this group, but let us have a look. I am minded to support amendment 447, as I have previously said. I will wait to hear from the Minister the impact that that will have on amendment 523.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Amendment made: 430, in clause 30, page 18, line 30, at end insert— “(da) responding to unexpected complications that arise in relation to the administration of the approved substance under section 18, including when the procedure fails;”.— (Daniel Francis.)”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“As such, I cannot support that amendment this evening, but I think we could look at coming up with something on Report that would achieve the objective that my hon. Friend the Member for York Central intended. Amendment 447 agreed to. Amendment made: 394, in clause 30, page 18, line 24, at end insert— “(ba) the provision of information and support to persons with learning disabilities who are eligible to request assistance to end their own life under this Act, including the role of advocates for such persons;”— (Daniel Francis .) Amendment made: 416, in clause 30, page 18, line 25, leave out paragraph (c).— (Jack Abbott.) This amendment is linked to Amendment 417.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“That is very helpful indeed. In that case I am very pleased to support amendment 523 in the name of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire as well. I am also minded to support amendment 394 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, which I think is very sensible, like his other amendments that I have supported. I am not sure that amendment 534 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich is entirely necessary, but I fully understand the sentiment and therefore I am minded to support that amendment as well. That brings me on to the final amendment, 448. I wanted to support this amendment, but I have taken on board the Minister’s comments on the lack of clarity about what it means to be registered and qualified.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Actually, this group presents very clear evidence that it is and must be about both, and I hope he can support the amendments. I take on board the Minister’s comments. I heard an element of caution from him, and I am happy to work with the Government and my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge if there are any further requirements prior to Report stage, but I am very happy to support the amendment and the new clause.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has made a powerful and passionate case for the provision of independent advocates, and, as always, has done an outstanding job of advocating for people with disabilities, including learning disabilities, mental disorders and autism, as she has done throughout this entire process. It is essential that anybody considering the choice at the end of life made possible by this Bill should fully understand the nature and consequences of any decision they may make. These amendments have made me reflect on comments—I think made by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire a few weeks ago—about the purpose of the Bill. He proposed that the Bill is either about choice and autonomy or it is about safeguards.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I understand the sentiment behind the amendment, but as the Minister said, codes of practice serve a particular purpose. Everyone has to comply with and abide by the law, but codes of practice are there to assist in the exercise of a person’s professional judgment. I worry about losing the ability for professionally trained and regulated people to use their professional discretion and have the flexibility they need to do their jobs well, if we accepted this amendment. I think the hon. Member for East Wiltshire answered his own question in his description of what a code of practice does. Although the amendment comes from a good place, I cannot support it. We need to have flexibility, and trust in our professionals to do their job.”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I briefly show my support for these amendments that have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford. Amendment 395 agreed to. Amendment made: 396, in clause 31, page 19, line 14, at end insert— “(ba) persons with learning disabilities;”— (Daniel Francis.) Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. — (Bambos Charalambous.)”
House of Commons19 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Clause 21, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 22 Other matters to be recorded in medical records”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“The shorter period of reflection is a recognition that a person’s death is expected within a month, so they literally have a few weeks left of life.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“It is a pleasure to serve under you this morning, Ms McVey. My amendments 374 and 471 serve to clarify that the second declaration must be made before it is witnessed—it is a drafting amendment—and to bring clause 13 in line with the reporting requirements elsewhere in the Bill. For the functions of the commissioner to be carried out effectively, including supervising the assisted dying panels and making annual reports on the legislation’s operation, it is essential that all relevant details and reports are made available. I am unable to support amendment 457, in the name of the hon. Member for Richmond Park. As I said when we started discussing the amendment, I do not fully understand why it has been positioned at this stage in the process.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Surely that is even more important than ever as they face their final weeks. As the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire said, palliative care will have been discussed at length throughout the assisted dying process. It is also worth noting, as the hon. Member for East Wiltshire said, that evidence from other jurisdictions with similar laws—Australia and America—shows that between 80% and 90% of people who have gone through the assisted dying process are already receiving palliative care, so I am not minded to support the amendment.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I appreciate that; that is helpful and I thank the hon. Member. As the Minister said, a person whose death is approaching may have stopped eating and drinking for a number of reasons. They may simply be too ill. They may be unable to digest food. It may be that they have lost their appetite, or that they will be even more ill if they eat and drink, so it would seem particularly cruel to intervene on that basis at that point, but I appreciate her comments. Amendment 316 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for York Central seeks to mandate the action a doctor must take if a patient is likely to die within one month. Like other amendments, it goes against the basic principles that underlie the Bill—that the wishes of the person seeking assistance should be respected.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I beg to move amendment 375, in clause 14, page 10, line 9, at end insert— “(1A) Where notice or an indication is given to the coordinating doctor under subsection (1)(a), the doctor must as soon as practicable notify the Commissioner of the cancellation.” This amendment requires the coordinating doctor to notify the Commissioner of a cancellation of a first or second declaration.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I hope that these are a couple of nice, simple amendments. The right of the patient to cancel at any time is obviously really important. It is also important that, for the purpose of monitoring and reporting the process, the commissioner, as proposed, is kept informed at every stage. I hope that the whole Committee can see the necessity of these amendments.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“To allay those fears, perhaps the fundamental answer to the question is that those people do not stop being patients—sadly, they do not stop being terminally ill patients. They have just chosen to cancel the declaration, and they will already have wraparound care. To some degree, the hon. Gentleman answered his own question when he said that doctors have a duty of care. That duty of care does not stop because the person has chosen to take this course of action. They will still be cared for by the professionals looking after them.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Amendment made: 376, in clause 14, page 10, line 12, after “doctor” insert “and the Commissioner”.— (Kim Leadbeater.) This amendment requires a practitioner other than the coordinating doctor to notify the Commissioner (as well as the coordinating doctor) of a cancellation of a first or second declaration . Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 15 Signing by proxy”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I repeat what I said earlier about what will happen to the patient if they choose to cancel: their care will continue. From a medical practitioner perspective, it is inconceivable that those patients would be abandoned, as the hon. Member for East Wiltshire is suggesting. That would not happen. I understand that cancellation of the second declaration does not need to be included in clause 14(4) because of when in the process it would happen. The first declaration comes much earlier, so clauses 7 to 9 would be applicable; the second declaration comes further down the process, so does not need to be included. However, I am happy to look at that in further detail and come back to the hon. Member on that, if necessary. Amendment 375 agreed to .”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Does the Minister agree that it will be on the record that we have had this conversation, and that many of us—including myself—have expressed our concerns about the concept of good standing in the community? I would like to think that that will be taken into consideration.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I will speak first to my amendment 473. It is important to be clear that the role of the proxy is very specific and would be used only in a very limited number of cases, where the patient is not able to sign their own name. That is, however, important when we are talking about terminally ill people who may be physically impaired, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford alluded to.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“That is why amendment 321 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford is really important. We have to put the reason down for why there is a proxy. It depends on personal circumstances and what that patient is going through, so we have to have a bit of flexibility, but they have to be unable to sign their name and they have to explain why they are unable to sign their name.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Clause 16 Recording of declarations and statements etc Amendments made: 209, in clause 16, page 11, line 8, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert— “(b) a report about the first assessment of a person is made under section 7; (c) a report about the second assessment of a person is made under section 8;”. This amendment is consequential on Amendments 420 and 421. Amendment 377, in clause 16, page 11, line 12, leave out paragraph (d) and insert— “(d) a certificate of eligibility has been granted in respect of a person; (da) a panel has refused to grant such a certificate;”.— (Kim Leadbeater.) This amendment is consequential on NC21.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“As the Minister said, a cancellation need not be in writing; it can be made orally or through any other form of communication. Amendment 321 agreed to. Amendment made: 473, in clause 15, page 11, line 3, leave out from “person” to end of line and insert “of a description specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State.”— (Kim Leadbeater.) This amendment provides that persons of a description specified in regulations (rather than persons “of good standing in the community”) may be proxies. Amendment made: 253, in clause 15, page 11, line 3, at end insert— “(6) For the purposes of this section “declaration” includes the cancellation of a declaration.”— (Sean Woodcock.) This would allow a cancellation of the first or second declaration to be signed by a proxy. Clause 15, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Looking at different lists, there is the list of people who can sign the back of someone’s passport. I do not think that would be appropriate, so I moved away from that. I have also looked at much shorter lists. I do think that this question would be part of a consultation; it is really important to get it right, which is why we must have it as part of a consultation. I am content that having the Secretary of State put it in regulations is the right thing to do. As I said, I am happy to support amendment 321 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford. It is a sensible amendment that makes the reasons for the use of the proxy more transparent. If amendment 253 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Claire Hazelgrove) is moved, I am happy to support that too.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“As we know, no two people are the same, nor are their circumstances. The hon. Member for East Wiltshire said that surely it should be done by someone the patient knows. The clause defines a proxy as someone the patient has known for two years, which is an important inclusion, but not everyone might have known for two years a person who they are comfortable asking to undertake that role. I also appreciate the challenges with the wording “of good standing in the community”. I will let the hon. Member for East Wiltshire and the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire fight that out among themselves. I am sure we all have our own version of what that means. I have explored various options and, contrary to the suggestion of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, I have spent a huge amount of time on this question, because it is very important.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“That is the sort of thing that the doctor would explore with the patient. It would happen in a very limited set of circumstances. We have to accommodate people who are physically impaired as a result of their terminal illness, and we have to include that there are a range of circumstances where this might apply. The proxy is being asked not to make any kind of judgment or assessment, but merely to act as an intermediary for the patient if they are unable to sign for themselves. They would have to explain why they are unable to sign for themselves, and the proxy has to be satisfied that the person understands the nature and effect of the making of the declaration. I thought long and hard about who should and should not be accepted as a proxy. As always, I try to imagine how it would be seen by someone with a terminal illness.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I beg to move amendment 474, in clause 16, page 11, line 17, at end insert— “(1A) In this section ‘recordable event’ means an event mentioned in a paragraph of subsection (1).” This amendment is consequential on amendments 209 and 377.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“The amendments are designed to streamline the drafting of the Bill. Taken together, they create a new definition of a recordable event, namely those events set out in clause 16(1), where declarations and statements are required at any stage of the process. We can all agree that record keeping is essential, so it is necessary to define the events that should be recorded. I commend the amendments to the Committee.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I do not know the details of the individual cases that the hon. Member speaks about, but he makes a powerful point and we absolutely agree on the importance of recording and monitoring. I know that he voted against the changes at clause 12, but I hope he gets some reassurance from the changes that the commission would bring in. Having the commission and the panels would ensure robust monitoring and reporting. I hope he agrees that that is a positive step.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“Amendment 478, in clause 16, page 11, line 30, leave out from second “a” to end of line 32 and insert “declaration, report or statement within subsection (1) must include the original declaration, report or statement.” —(Kim Leadbeater.) This amendment is consequential on amendments 209 and 377. Clause 16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 17 Recording of cancellations”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗
“I have nothing further to add. Amendment 474 agreed to. Amendments made: 475, clause 16, page 11, line 19, leave out from second “the” to “in” in line 21 and insert “occurrence of the recordable event”. This amendment is consequential on amendments 209 and 377. Amendment 476, in clause 16, page 11, line 24, leave out from “the” to “, and” in line 26 and insert “occurrence of the recordable event”. This amendment is consequential on amendments 209 and 377. Amendment 477, in clause 16, page 11, line 27, leave out from “the” to “in” in line 29 and insert “occurrence of the recordable event”. This amendment is consequential on amendments 209 and 377.”
House of Commons18 March 2025Contains Parliamentary information licensed under the Open Parliament Licence v3.0Source ↗