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Maran Nelson

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2017-01-13
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2017-01-13
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  1. Talks to email, talks to calendar, integrates with maps, has this kind of contacts application. But being able to talk to those team level applications as well is what we're spending a lot of our time on.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  2. Clara, but integrated with your applicant tracking system, right? What does it mean to have marketing automation? As you're probably familiar, not that you necessarily use marketing automation, but the vast majority of marketing automation is a call, it is a request to get on a call, right? But you can imagine maybe somebody responds to you. It's 8 p.m. at night, your salesperson is at dinner, it lands in their inbox, but now your lead is cold. It's not going to, it's going to be 24 hours or whatever before that person actually gets to the email and gets to respond to actually schedule the call and pull it all the way through. That's a huge loss. So what does it mean for Clara to integrate with marketing automation so that we can be responsive in sub 10 minutes anytime 24-7, anywhere? And that kind of stepping deeper into the other suite of things right now.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  3. Are a person doesn't need to know who you are to be able to help you schedule a coffee chat. So there are a lot of huge strides that we made that let us scale very economically with good margins. And that was the biggest thing we wanted to de-risk as a business was finding the way to provide this great user experience at great margins very scalably, very accurately with a kind of steady, very high near perfect accuracy. So having successfully done that, which is you can't even imagine like the pride and awesome good feelings on the team. We are spending 2017 on integrations. So today, Clara doesn't book conference rooms, for example, which we are pretty eminently going to be doing and obviously keeps us out of a lot of larger companies. You can imagine, you know, when you think about recruiting coordination, what is recruiting coordination? Well, it's

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  4. So 2016, to take a step back for us was just tremendous. It was the year that we launched Exo, which is our machine learning platform, Exo at its core is a male client. It is a maps application. It is a calendar client. It is all of those things that make up the kind of PDA suite, right, that we were talking about earlier. Except in this particular universe of thing, we're making predictions about what should happen next. And people, our contractors are helping us learn on our predictions. No, this was wrong. It's actually this. Oh, now we've learned, what have you. But building the feedback loop to machine learning there, encoding people's preferences directly so that anybody anywhere in the world could do really intimate knowledge work on behalf of anyone anywhere else in the world because we know the system knows who you

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  5. It's letting machine learning get past the kind of stuck in 80 to 90% right land that isn't good enough to be shipped as a user facing feature. Getting over that hump is a huge challenge.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  6. I mean, we feel, of course, that we're solving this, but there is this funny catch-22 with machine learning, which is to have a good user experience, you have to be very confident that the feature that you're shipping is going to work, right? People don't tend to like it. If the features that they're depending on don't work well, if the products that they're depending on don't work well, and in machine learning, it's really challenging to get the data set and the understanding and the savvy to get to a highly reliable prediction, right? Where you're right, say 95% of the time, 96, 97.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  7. And notillus are really both interesting. Again, I'm kind of a weird theoretical person. I really do read books. It's very boring.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  8. Yeah, division of labor style, but also just there are so many companies at approximately similar stages of life and build this ability to give good counsel because you have so many opportunities to have seen similar situations before.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  9. Yeah, my impulse is like they just really do want to take care of their companies. I think that Y Combinator comes in at such an early stage. It really gets to put a stamp on your experience as a founder and build a trust relationship because you spend so much time with them, right? They see you for months. And I think that that trust relationship is indispensable and so important if you're trying to build companies. And they've gotten the kind of lower variance, high repetitiveness, right? I think I'm hopping back to the first question, but the same things that machines are best suited to learn. Humans are loosely best suited to learn, which is the more you can interact with the same types of problems, the better an intuition you'll get for how to solve the problems. And my combinator is very much Like that in a way.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  10. So, scheduling luckily is very much one of them repetitive, right? You want the variance in response to be low ideally. So in our case, you know, you're talking about the same handful of variables on every occasion. You have the ability to kind of constrain what the conversation should be through a simple verbiage like next week or in the afternoon or whatever. And you deal with these same variables at really high frequency. So you have a lot of data opportunity to learn how to deal with each of those variables.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  11. My instinct was east of Eden by John Steinbeck. I've always been a sucker for fiction that it's really philosophy that's kind of thinly veiled as fiction. And I think East of Eden is one of those books. It's really deliberate about life and what it means to live well. And it deals a lot with will, you know, how we make decisions, what we should be optimizing for. So philosophy thinly veiled as fiction is my favorite. You know, if I were to continue to list books, it would just be like a slew of books like that.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  12. Acquainted enough with our software to be very good at handling a degree of complexity that if we were to just introduce you into the system tomorrow, you're very smart, so it's not that it takes a tremendous amount of time to kind of get spun up on being able to do it. But as you can imagine, the majority of the kind of Turking community does small, small pieces of work. They don't have the depth of context that would allow them to, I don't want to call it label intelligently, right? But do work and by virtue of doing that work, be providing incredibly complex labels.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  13. This very simple process. You don't know who these people are, they're all over the place. You don't know how to make sure that their work is accurate. So you end up with pretty noisy labels. It takes you a month, you turn it around, it's back to your team, your team is working through it now, and now they want the prediction to be slightly better. So they take more, they throw it back over to people who are very far apart from the problem and ask them to solve these simple problems. One of the things that's amazing about the way that we've built the backend declara is that these people are contractors are not doing thousands of pieces of different work from different companies a day, right? They are contractors in the Clara system and they are not labelers who are doing very simple work like circling date times, right? They don't see themselves as labelers at all because they are not labelers. They are helping their assistants are people who are helping correct our predictions and they become a

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  14. I think they will always be involved. We get asked that frequently and it makes perfect sense for us though until we have some kind of strong AI that completely obfuscates the need for human work. You necessarily have humans in the loop in doing that work. And people can think about it and kind of arrange it a little bit differently. Where at Google, Google likes to think of itself as a software company. I think which it is, of course. I think though in our conception it's kind of a, it can be a strength and a weakness for them where in reality, of course, you have thousands of people that are contractors on the back end of Google's learnings, right? But there you have a kind of throw massive amounts of data over your shoulder and have people try to circle the date time, circle the date time, circle the date time, circle the, you know, the

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  15. We've been lucky to have the number of kind of constant applicants to be a CRA that we have such that the quality of that group is really strong.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  16. The way that Clara was always kind of envisioned to work and the thing that we are really proud to have achieved over the course of the past two years of investment has been building a platform wherein a message comes in, an email of some kind. It says something. Either we feel very confident about what it is that that message says such that we say, oh, awesome, we're just going to take the next action, right? Be it, Clara is going to respond or we're going to send the calendar invitation. The state is already held here or, oh, this is an irrelevant message to us. We don't need to do anything. Or we say, you know, we're not quite confident about the action we need to take. We put whatever it is that we predict we should do in front of a contractor. We call our contractors Clara Remote Assistance. And these people are very smart, like awesome, awesome people.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  17. I know, I know. If it's about something important like that. But I think that was a good investment on their part, which came from the self-awareness of we need better feedback loops to this so that we can learn with greater confidence. And of course, the entirety of the infrastructure and foundation of how we've built Clara is about trying to build phenomenal feedback loops to our learning.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  18. It means good feedback loops. It means you have to understand when you predicted it right or wrong with enough reliability that you can train intelligently and quickly. I think an easy example, and this is something I actually saw Siri do recently, it's hard for the Siri team to know when you say something about fried avocados and Siri thinks you're talking about avogado or whatever, right? Like the chances are you're just going to get frustrated, you're going to drop off. And the Siri team has no way of understanding that they infect messed it up. They added something recently to the bottom of the screen such that you can kind of report the error, though you don't have much of an incentive as a single user to spend additional time to report series error to the Apple team.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  19. And that would really change their lives in a big enough way that they were going to pay us for it. So I would firstly say for a long term AI company, you have to have the same thing that you have to have for any company, which is an absolute customer heartedness. But the second thing I would say.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  20. Our feeling has been that the most important thing, well, firstly, the most important thing is the user experience, period, right? As with everything else in the world, if you're trying to build a company, you have to put your customer at the absolute heart of everything you do and work backwards from what it is that the customer needs from you and find a way to do that thing. For us in the early days, Mint, my co-founder and I scheduling like thousands of meetings by hand, right? It meant convincing my younger sister to come out and quote intern with us, largely helping us schedule these meetings. It meant friends of mine from college who were on break helping us just manually work through what it was that the user experienced needed to be so that we could learn what it was that we needed to scale, right? What it was that people wanted.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  21. Oh, awesome. That's incredible. I'm so glad. It's just, she's a great human being. So it's been fun to have her. So the question was about long-term.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  22. I want to give a bit of a shout out to Siobhan, which is it's really incredible to have a woman that is so in the weeds with the AI community and who has, from her heart, really jumped fast to that and to that interest and cultivated the base of knowledge that she has.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  23. Have to do with food, and they have apps on your phone. When of course Instacart has this massive operational complexity that they're dealing with and the service being provided is a fundamentally different one. So I think that the next few years, one of the biggest things I hope for is that we get a better collective vocabulary around understanding that we shouldn't look at all of these things side by side, that they're each quite different in the approaches you can take are really varied.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  24. So it's been a bit frustrating to me and understandable that people right now want to conceive of AI as a category. You know, there's like this idea of the bot category or the category of things that you can converse with or the category of things that are algorithmically intelligent. And so then you look at the whole thing and you say, man, most of these things really suck, right? Most of the things in this category are so painful. Most of these assistant things or whatever are hyper tedious. And I absolutely agree. I think the problem is largely with thinking about those things as synonymous to each other. It's kind of like saying that everybody who builds a web app is competing in the same category, right? It's kind of like saying that just a software app like my fitness pal is the same as In Sakart because they both

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  25. I think it has something to do with your ability to know enough information about the person such that you can act on their behalf without having to get too much information from them. The simplest way, I think, to answer that is just we like things to be fast and intuitive, probably a mathematical equation for this practically, which is, you know, I'm willing to incur some learning time, some setup time if subsequently it's much simpler for me to get this thing done. And different people have different willingness to have the time up front because they expect, they want things to be fast, right? These like people who use keyboard shortcuts, but it's usually the people who use keyboard shortcuts that are constantly attached to their keyboards. So the equation for them would be different than for anybody with a keyboard.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  26. Get an Uber than it is to have a conversation with a bot about trying to tell them where I am so that I can get an Uber. There's some tipping point at which something is sufficiently complex such that you don't want a traditional graphical user interface anymore to see the information, to get the thing you need a conversation actually becomes a better user experience.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  27. HTML stuff and emails and have people click things and go through a whatever much more of a, you know, there are tons of apps that have done this for a long time and none of them have really taken off. And so you ask the why. Why is it that this hasn't taken off? And I do think there are conversations, language interfaces, are really important if there is a sufficient amount of complexity such that language is the best interface to resolve that complexity. And I think this is one of the big struggles that we have with people designing and thinking about conversational interfaces right now is that most people, most people want to build bots that are purely bots. And unfortunately, bots today are not sophisticated. They don't understand nuance or complexity. And so the application for these bots tends to be things that are really, really simple. But of course, it's easier for me to click the Uber app, right?

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  28. So I mentioned that there are several years, nearly a decade of conversations that led to Clara, but that the inflection point for us was scheduling. And I'll go a bit more into that because I think that's a good foundation. We started trying to build a normal app, a software app of some kind to solve the scheduling problem because it was so tedious and frustrating and constant and there's so much opportunity for error, right? It was just such a pain and found that it was really challenging to think about designing an interface that was going to make this negotiation, this human negotiation simple and accessible. And that insight was really interesting and important for us to start to say, you know, I think that as opposed to this thing that we started with, which is like us trying to create

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  29. Familiar to people. And I think that when you think about the interface that we've chosen at Clara, right, which is conversational, I'm happy to talk more about why I think that's a good fit, but one of the biggest reasons is you're used to that.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  30. I think everything tends to be much more incremental than we like to think of it before it happens. I think we really love the story of all of a sudden we're stuck in a virtual reality and your whole existence is there. It was Snapchat that in my mind had the kind of incremental build that was incredibly wise, right? Snapchat has this relentless product focus. And now, of course, they're the people introducing the idea of augmented reality to tons and tons of people and games like Pokemon Go, right? Where there is this slow but sure corralling of technology enabled innovations that really change the way that people interact, but that succeed because the behavior pattern is not too unfair.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  31. Where now we're seeing quite the opposite the dog bowl is the thing that's smart and there is no maid, there is no robot made. I feel very similarly about this category of thing and it's a really hard conversation to have where you try to explain, well, actually what we're doing is just making this core software suite that you spend your life in, that you spend hours a day in much, much smarter than it has been before by growing to understand you, by learning your preferences, right, by being able to have the agency to take some actions on your behalf. And that frequently gets referred to as an assistant. And it is something, admittedly, that we struggle to explain more so than I would like for us to.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  32. So that was it So funny. I think we as people have this tendency to want to anthropomorphize everything. When I, you know, we have this concept of a digital assistant right now and we think that it's new and that we've kind of recently come upon it. But of course, if you flash back even to when Steve Jobs was launching the iPhone in his introduction of the iPhone, he introduces it into a kind of category that existed, which was the personal digital assistant, the PDA, right? And it had become this kind of ubiquitous technology. It was just a bit smarter than what had preceded it, which was dumber versions of your calendar, dumber versions of your phone email, etc. Similarly, if you think about the Jetsons, you have this maid who's literally going around cleaning up every individual thing, but the dog bowl is not smart. The maid is smart, and the dog bowl is a dog.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  33. Some expectation that one day we would build something together when we found something that just clicked for us and resonated deeply. So shortly after school, constant conversations about what we expected to exist in the future that didn't exist today, how we could contribute to bringing it about, and had several conversations that led and fermented into our conception of Clara, which was really a thesis about how to build an AI or rather something that was humanly intelligent, but that scaled, right, and that was accessible from a price point perspective and all that jazz. And really the big inflection point was realizing how painful and ubiquitous scheduling problems were.

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  34. No, absolutely. And shout out to Kent. I think my entire team is just in love with him and everything he does. It's kind of bizarre. I'm from Texas. I always saw myself as somebody rooted squarely in the humanities, loved people, studied psychology and neuroscience, and did my undergraduate research on intelligence, human intelligence. And meanwhile, parallel track, my co-founder who became my best friend when we were both in Texas at 15 years old, was very much an engineer rooted in that world, was building apps for the early iPhone and getting hundreds of thousands of downloads. And actually an undergrad studied intelligence and did his research in robotics, right? So machine intelligence can currently. It would have given him an equal amount of credit for who I am with or without having founded Clara. But I think that there was just always this interplay between us and

    2017-01-13 · The Twenty Minute VC · 20VC: Building An AI Company For The Long Term? How Humans & Machine Learning Can Work Together? What Applications Are The Conversational Interface Best Suited To with Maran Nelson, Founder & CEO @ Clara Labs · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source