YouSaid · the spoken record

Mark Esper

lines on the record: 59
first: 2023-12-11
most recent: 2023-12-11
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“There's a lot of talk out there, but I don't have all the answers, but I do know we need from a government regulatory standpoint to get on it sooner rather than later and then set the standard for the rest of the world because I'm not confident that Chinese or the Russians are going to abide by.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. And so I'm glad to see that, but I'm not sure that, again, all the folks there are capable of understanding that. But I do think it needs to be democratized in that sense. We need to get these big power players together and come up with this in a very consensus-based way, at least have the discussion about how do we guide its ethical development. How do we make sure that we're testing systems before they are sold to the public or put out in the public domain? Because look as much greatness as there is, the things that scare me are the fact that, for example, they say what would take some person years to learn how to develop, for example, a biological toxin. You could use AI with the proper tools. Do it now in a couple hours. And that's what really scares me. It's about biological warfare and things like that. Not to mention other nefarious things that bad people can do with AI. So I think we need to make sure it develops. And we have the latest developments with Sam Altman and OpenAI.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think if you look back, at least in American history, you see epochs of time when industries were dominated by very wealthy people. So I don't think that's a new thing. But I do think I do like the fact that the White House and Congress recognize that they need to get on top of this far more quickly than they did with the Internet, right? And things like that.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I don't think there's enough urgency. And look, and I say that to somebody who's in venture capital now in my firm, Red Cell, we work in both defense and healthcare with a heavy, heavy AI bias. So for transparency purposes, but I don't think we're moving fast enough, not because leadership doesn't want to. I think the leadership is very enlightened. They get it, but the machine, the bureaucratics of Pentagon don't allow it to move as quickly as it needs to be. You know, when hardware still is working under Moore's law, it's changing every two years and software even faster than that, the DoD system. I mean, the congressional budget process is an 18 to 24 month process. We just have to regear DOD and Congress to be able to keep up with the speed at which AI is changing and evolving. We're not there yet. As much as folks in DOD are pushing and people like me on the outside are pushing, we're just not moving quickly enough on both the technological front, but also on the how do you regulate it? How do you manage it?”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Ethically and responsibly when it came to AI. And I wanted that to be a marker, not just for DOD, but for the U.S. government. And then, of course, globally, because it has such great positive potential, but such great negative downsides as well, if not developed and used properly. And that's a concern. It's not just about killer robots and terminators, but from the positive side, it's everything from healthcare to preventive maintenance for the DoD fleet. It's to how do you manage your personnel? How do you use your sensors much more accurately and effectively? It's going to transcend everything in one way, shape, or form.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, it's a great question. And I was Secretary of the Army for a couple years before I was Secretary of Defense, and I made AI my number one top modernization priority. I think it's just because of its impact on everything. It's kind of like electricity. It powers everything, or should, or will power everything, so much so that I not only made it my top priority, but I stood up an AI task force at Carnegie Mellon University. And we did a number of other things to advance AI within the Army and then carried that forward when I was Secretary of Defense. My view was AI was so critical that we had to get there first. We had to dominate when it came to AI because if we didn't, certainly the Chinese would as well and use it against us. Now that said, I also have to share a lot of the concerns about the ethics of it, responsible use. And in February of 2020, I had Eric Schmidt was on the Defense Business Board. We talked, he brought forward a professional ethics policy that I signed out immediately setting the guidelines for DOD about how we would conduct ourselves.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, I'm afraid that he can win. And look, I'm also one that says when I go out and speak, people say, what's the greatest threat facing our country, right? And you probably heard this one, you and I spoke before. It's not the Chinese, it's the political extremism coming from both sides of the political spectrum that's really eating away at our political culture and destroying this country. And at the same time, I think there's a hunger out there for a new generation of leaders. From both sides, and certainly on my side, but a new generation of leaders. I'd like to see us get to that in 2024 and not wait till 2028 because I'm concerned about those next four years if the choices are Trump or Biden.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“President would come in on the, you know, he would again attack our institutions of government. He would erode the norms and behaviors. He would use them against political enemies on the foreign policy front. He's said that he would withdraw support from Ukraine. That would, of course, condemn them to the Russians. I believe that he would eventually pursue the withdrawal from NATO. And then would he go after the other things that he talked about? withdrawing U.S. troops from Japan or Korea.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, absolutely. I'm worried. And I talk to, you know, I talked to Bill Barr and others. Who have left the party? There's a lot of concern out there, and there's concern about folks on Capitol Hill. I talk to members of Congress a lot of concern out there.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“He certainly had a lot of incompetent people, but one doesn't necessarily determine the other. So I think there is a reason to be concerned. And Trump has said this is going to be about retribution, about revenge. And he's already talking about how do you use the institutions of government, DOJ, the IRS, and others to deal with your political enemies.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, I mean, the president has extensive powers, right? In the executive branch under Article 2. And as much as you would like to believe that Trump loyalists are not competent, that's not necessarily true. There are a lot of competent, capable people who are kind of uber loyal to him. And so I think they would know how to pull the strings or push the levers of government to make things happen. And that's got to be a concern. So I don't necessarily, just because you're a true loyalist, Trump doesn't mean you're incompetent.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And that's going to be really damaging because you want people who take the oath to the Constitution, hence the name of my book, A Sacred Oath. Your oath is to the Constitution. It's not to a president. Of course, under that construct, you work for the president. But your oath is not to him or her”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of the federal government, and they began drawing up this Schedule F or whatever this is, new plan to replace the civilian bureaucracy. So all these things begin then. And I think my argument is that the end of the Trump administration, certainly with regard to personnel, is where it will begin if he's elected and takes office in 2025. They've learned lessons. They're building that database of true loyalists. And that will be the litmus test by which people are appointed or nominated for in the administration. Loyalty be number one. And you can see it in the tests and stuff like that, the questions are asking.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I think if there's one lesson that Trump learned from his first term, his first go-round was the importance of getting the right people. People will say Trump was the same throughout his four years. I say that's not the case. I think he was on a learning curve. So I think after he beat impeachment in early 2020, that's when he began bringing back the Loyalists. Mark Meadows comes in, Johnny McIntyre. He brings Rick Rinnell brack in, and he pairs up with his buddy, Robert O'Brien. And you have all these other people come back in. Johnny McInty, the head of presidential personnel, begins the so-called purge.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, good thing they'd have seven months. I've been criticized too. People say, well, you know, you should have quit. You should left. My view is look, all the people at the beginning or throughout the administration said we need adults in a room. You just can't tell the adults in the room, we don't want you in the room, but when things go bad, leave the room.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Not only got rid of me, got rid of my chief of staff. I think two or three undersecretaries, and then installed all his people to Pentagon. And that's where you saw these plans to attack Iran, withdraw from Afghanistan. We withdrew troops from, I think, Somalia, so forth and so on. All the bad things that I was concerned would happen began happening. And I look back on this thinking, believing that I did do the right thing.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“On his team, we're talking about attacking Iran itself. I mean, so I had 12 months or so under my belt at that point in time, knowing the bad ideas were out there. And of course, the other one that was out there, he wanted to withdraw U.S. forces from Germany, from NATO. And I pushed back on that for quite some time until I got a direct order about that. So anyways, that was my logic. And I developed the four no's. Things that would kind of guide me through those final six months. My aim was how do I get to the election and let the American people decide and kind of keep everything on track? And I made it till the election and then what, a week after and was fired November 9th. And then, of course”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“A person call them powder said, No stay, make him fire you, you got to stay and hold on and be the guardrail. But I wrestled with it. And at the end of the day, I thought the higher duty was, if you really, if your oath is really to the Constitution, to the country, then you've got to stay and fight the fight. And do as best you can for as long as you can. And that became my thing. So I talk about, again, the public break happened in June of 2020, but he was talking about, or his people were too, you know, sending troops to the border in the spring of 2020. He talked at least at that time the spring of 2020 about bombing Mexico. His staff was constantly bringing up ideas about attacking Venezuela. We began at the beginning of this podcast.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I was very explicit about this. You know, my differences with Trump began early and then kind of escalated over time. And then they broke into the public on June 3rd, 2020. But I'd come to my concern had come to be that if I wasn't there, and not just me, but there were others, Mark Millie and I work side by side. If we weren't there to stop the really bad ideas, not just his bad ideas, but people on his team, people at the NSC, the bad ideas, then he would put somebody in charge that would follow through with them. And of course, so that's why I decided to hang on. And look, I wrestled with this because my view was it would be far simpler for me to just resign. I'd go out and I could say what I could. And then it would be over in 24 to 48 hours. And I wrestled with this a lot. And I went so far as to call my predecessors, Leon Panetta and Bob Gates said the same and to a man.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Look, he's unfit for office. To beat back bad ideas and hold on to the election, and then it's only worsened since I left, right? I left and then 70 days, not because I left, but I left and then we saw the continued denial of the election and ultimately January 6th. And then it's gotten worse and worse. So I'm really concerned about the next election.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You know, I haven't delved too much into those, but it is startling, those issues. And you're right, they tend to still have that non-aligned state mentality that they developed during the Cold War that they're not aligning. And I think it's a mistake. I think it's time to align and they should align with the other democracies of the world and they should fully behave like the other democracies of the world. So again, I haven't delved into this. Clearly there's intelligence supporting it, but it's something that needs to be addressed at the highest levels. We can't have government hitmen running around the world, whether it's the United States or Canada or anybody, anywhere for that matter.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Was at the Pentagon then, but Bush and then Obama and Trump and now Biden, each administration sees the importance of developing that strategic partnership with...”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Like Papua New Guinea or Palau, places like that. And then you get to India, right? Where you began. And I've argued, wrote about this in my memoir, that if China is the greatest strategic competitor or adversary we face this century, then I believe that India is the greatest strategic partner that we need to develop to counterbalance that. It's now the world's largest country in the world, a very dynamic economy. Look, we do share a lot of values. It is the world's largest democracy. And I take your points about Modi and the BJP. This kind of gets back to where we began, right? If you start putting a litmus test against everybody. But I think, look, they have a lot of concerns, legitimate concerns about the Chinese, so much so that they're balancing with the Russians, which is a completely different issue that I have a beef with them about. But I do think we need to continue to develop that relationship. And it's one of those relationships where successive administrations beginning, at least with the Bush administration.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Again, American troops there, the Philippines, and then you start working your way around, right? Australia is another very important ally of ours. And what we have to do is shore up all the other countries, whether it's ASEAN countries. And then the ones we tend to forget are the Pacific Island countries.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think our most important ally is probably Japan in the region, you know, third world's third largest economy, high tech. They made some really important moves that probably most people don't recognize in the last few years under the new prime minister. They doubled their defense spending the first time since the end of World War II, doubled their defense spending and they decided they would develop an offensive capability when it comes to missiles. I think they really recognize the threat, and they've talked about this. And when I was in office, I would talk about it with my defense counterpart as well. So I think their number one, they host more American troops than any other country in the world. It's a very strategic location between Korea and then, of course, Taiwan to the south and right off the coast of China. So very critical than I would count Korea in their as well.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And he'll have that third term through 2027, I think. And then will he try for a fourth term? He's not an old man, but he's not a young man either. I think he's 70 years old. So he only has so many years to get this done if he wants to get it done on his watch.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I think, look, Xi Jinping talks often since his installment as General Secretary in 2013 about rejuvenating China, the greater China, and what that means is reclaiming what they view as lost territory, whether it's Hong Kong, which they pretty much they have now completely under control, Taiwan is the last major outlier. But he also has the right, he also claims ground in the Himalayas. That's the Indian territory. He's also claiming a lot of shoals and reefs in the South China Sea. But Taiwan is the big one. And my concern is Xi Jinping sees himself as one of the great leaders in Chinese history up there in the pantheon of leaders with Mao. But to do that, he's going to, I think he may want to go after Taiwan. That's what concerns me. I mean, he had an unprecedented third term.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“War game after war game and CSIS and other think tanks runnies have shown that two things have to happen if China decides to invade Taiwan. Now there are other scenarios we can talk about but amphibious invasion. Number one is the Taiwanese have to be willing to fight and hold on and number two the United States has to quickly make a decision to get in or not. And I give President Biden credit here. President Biden sent on multiple occasions that we would come to Taiwan's defense. But if we don't, then I don't think they have a chance. And so I think if I were them, knowing that there's maybe some uncertainty there, particularly if administrations change, you want to do everything you can to arm yourselves and to make sure, again, you prevent the greatest deterrence you can. I believe they are committed to doing that.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That we can arm them up, train them up, and help them defend themselves, the more likely it is that Xi Shinping will decide not to invade them and not to take them on because he'll see a much tougher fight.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Invaded by a bigger bully neighboring you, you don't need to just roll over. That if your people are willing to fight for their freedom, for their rights, for their country, then you can push back a bully. You can kind of defend yourselves and maybe deter the conflict in the first place. I would argue now that if Putin knew how the conflict would have turned out now, if you could rewind the clock, would he have actually invaded in February 22? I don't know because he clearly was overpromised by his generals how easy it would be to take Ukraine. I think Xi Jinping is asking himself those same questions, or I hope he is. So my argument would be, has been to the Taiwanese, that, hey, you guys need to arm up. You need to take the steps now that the Ukrainians probably wish they had taken before the conflict, buy javelins, buy stingers, train your people, build a territorial defense, stockpile goods, stockpile energy, I argued that they should return to a year-long conscription. Which president Sai did last year? I think was a very bold move. So I think the...”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Look, he's absolutely right. I think we should be providing, and the Taiwanese should be procuring themselves more weapons and the right type of weapons. So I traveled to Taiwan every year. I was there a few months ago. I met with President Sa, the defense minister, her cabinet, and talked about that. In my view, they learned a lesson from the Ukraine war. And their lesson, and I think our lesson was.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, that's what I would argue that it shouldn't be the person, it should be some type of contract arrangement with the United States government. Where the United States government says you're going to provide this service, and we will tell you when to turn it on or turn it Then it's made by”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I'm not sure it was, but I've heard what the SpaceX folks will tell you that no, they did have conversations with the Pentagon and the White House. The person to really interview is Walt Isaacson, who did that wonderful bio on Musk. I think he's got the best information on that. But I think he would say the same thing. But look, I think at the end of the day, I think they or any other companies who are working in a conflict zone like this need to be under some type of need to follow the guidance of the United States”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But just like we do with any other defense company, because in this case, they, in some ways, are serving as a defense contractor. That's right. And so if they're going to provide a service in a conflict zone, then it should be, I think, guided, directed by U.S. foreign policy.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, first of all, for transparency, I do some consulting for SpaceX, so just so you know that up front. Look, I think Starlink has been an exceptional system. I think what SpaceX and other companies, by the way, that are doing to get America into space, to give us launch access, whether it's SpaceX, Blue Origin, you name it. And I think it's tremendous. It's something that for many years, because it was there when I worked in Congress, we were depending on the Russians. And that's not a good country to be dependent on. So I think SpaceX and others have done extraordinary things when it comes to America's access to space. I think when it comes to Starlink and the different issues regarding this or that being turned off or turned on, I think that all needs to be under some type of contract through DoD with DoD, driven by U.S. foreign policy. They should be compensated for that.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“To Russia in support of Ukraine. So I think people were presenting false choices and false ideas about this. My argument is would be that, look, if we are, this is an era of autocracies versus democracies. And if you don't start stop Putin now, he is going to consolidate gains in Ukraine, and then will he start looking at other states, former Soviet Union states he wants to reoccupy, reseize, because we know that he said the greatest tragedy that the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union. Will he do that next? And if he does, under Article 5 of NATO, U.S. troops, U.S. forces, United States of America will be involved. And my argument would be, I'd rather spend $100 billion now to beat the Russians down and beat them back and teach Putin a lesson than have to spend more than knows how much more of that in terms of not just treasure, but blood if Putin makes move somewhere else.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think it's a combination of things, Kara. First of all, look, it's Trump, right? He's talking about not supporting Ukrainians. He sees it as a waste of money, but the Ukrainians are corrupt. That feeds into an isolationist strain within the party. And then that also people are making assertions about false choices. Like, what we shouldn't be supporting Ukraine, we should be supporting Taiwan instead, right? Because China is the bigger threat. And China is indeed the bigger threat, bigger than Russia next. Yeah, but the two are related, right? Because China is watching very carefully how we respond we being the United States and our allies.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“If they launched it at that time with M1 tanks and European fighting vehicles and F-16s and long range attacks, they still don't have long-range attacks. If they had everything they needed to do the counteroffensive, then I think you would have had a different outcome. U.S. forces would have never fought like that way. It's far riskier.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I've said that American assistance to Ukraine is like the biggest block at the bottom of a Jenga Tower, right? The game. And I think if you pull us out, I'm concerned that the Europeans won't step up and compensate that you'll see their support collapse as well. Maybe not all the Europeans, I think like the Baltic states and the Poles and others will be strong. But I don't think it'll be enough to sustain the Ukrainians. And over time, I think the Ukrainians will have to ask themselves, if we can't sustain the fight, not just because of equipment, but also they're running short on manpower compared to the Russians. Do they have to cut a deal? Do they have to freeze the conflict in place? And I think that's my concern. The clock in some ways is changing against the Ukrainians. They don't have as much time as they might have had before, which is why providing the aid now, getting the, and as important, getting the weapon system to them when they need it. I believe that the offensive, the summer offensive at this point, would have been far different.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Much like any conflict, the president has to be at there frequently talking about why it's important, why it matters, and what is the end state that we're trying to achieve. And that's kind of, again, that's the good and bad of where I see the administration is. And you're right, Kare, at this point, it seems it's settling into a stalemate. We'll see what happens come spring when... When the fighting season, so to speak, begins again, and hopefully by that time they have F16s and M1 tanks and other weapon systems, will it start up again? It depends on how the winner plays out.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Do think we have to support the Ukrainians in terms of what they want to achieve. My view has been aligned with Zelensky's in a perfect world. They restore all of Ukrainian territory to include Crimea. There would be reparations. Putin would be held accountable as a war criminal at the Hague, you name it. That's what I would like to see. The question is, is that achievable? I don't think, you know, The support that we've given them so far has been good but not sufficient. It's not been timely enough. And so that's what I like to see the outcome. I do think, again, I give the president credit for pulling the allies together, supplying arms. I criticize him, though, for the delivery.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Back to the table and negotiate a better nuclear deal. If we see them ramping up their bad behavior, if we see that they are behind in one way, shape, or form the attacks of October 7th, I think they've gone to a new level, and I think we should start exploring. Again, beginning with diplomacy and sanctions, really, but then preparing a coalition, because I think the Iranians respect force. But I wouldn't just jump into it. Too many people in Trump's orbit where Trump wanted him just kind of going and attack Iran or attack Iranians within Iran. And I thought that was a haphazard way of getting into a conflict if you haven't thought through it and don't have your allies with you and all those other things that are contribute to a successful outcome.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Look, I think I'll go back to, then I recall well, is in December 2019 we were attacked, I think, in Northern Iraq and the decision was made. I recommend it is to strike multiple sites in Iraq and Syria. And we killed, I think, 20 some militiamen to include IRGC. We wounded 50 some as well. And to me, that was the right type of response. What I argued about pushback on President Trump and some of his advisors about was, look, if you want to take strikes within Iran, within Iran, then first of all, we have to prepare the theater. There's a lot, we have to put more troops there first. And if you do that, then you're buying into a Middle East war. Is that what you want to do? Because if you want to do that, Mr. President, then we need to prepare. We need to get allies on board. We need to go through all the steps that you should go to to do that. And so that would be my same recommendation to President Biden is, you know, we've reached this point now if we think that the Iranians aren't going to come.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's a decision President Trump made at the time. He was supported by a lot of Republicans. He was supported by, I mean, I support that approach. And so again, I did not think it was a good deal. I thought using the maximum pressure campaign to try and force a better deal was the way to go. I think at the end of the day, we weren't able to impose maximal pressure on the Iranians because the Germans, the Brits, I think, and the French just were not there with us. And maybe that dynamic has changed now where you can get everybody back on board after we've seen Iranian bad behavior the last three years. People say, okay, yeah, we agree that we need to try a different approach.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I thought it was a bad deal. I thought it had a lot of loopholes in it, verification shortcomings. I think the endurance of it, the sun setting was inadequate. I think for a lot of reasons, it was a good idea, but it wasn't a good deal. And I thought we should have pursued a better deal.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“On the Iranians, close all the loopholes, cut off the flow of money, really put the pressure on them, while at the same time you figure out how do you blockade, prevent that flow of arms. And then you've got to start working the issue. And at some point, you may, I think you have to come to the realization. Maybe you have to form a coalition that's going to take on Iran militarily, if need be, but we keep going through the cycle now. It's been years of mayhem in the region, and it's all financed and influenced by Iran.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I don't think war with Iran right now makes sense. Israel needs to deal with Hamas and Gaza and does not want to open a northern front with Hezbollah or an eastern front with Iran or militants in the West Bank for that matter. But I do think when we talk about defeating an organization like Hamas, part of it's not just eliminating their offensive capability, decapitating their leadership, but also making sure they can't reconstitute themselves. And what has been keeping Hamas afloat has been, first of all, monetary donations from countries like Qatar, but also money from Iran, arms from Iran, missiles and rockets from Iran, training from Iran, all those things. You have to staunch that flow of arms that you're going to prevent the reconstitution of Ma. So I think that has to begin now a dialogue with our allies and partners, again, not just in the region, but Europe and elsewhere, to think about how do we really tighten sanctions, financial, economic, energy, and so on.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The big bad guy in the region that we need to deal with. So the second component is I think you need to be talking to those countries and our European friends and others about how do we deal with Iran, how do we get the Ayatollah and the Malas back in the box so they end this mayhem, whether it's in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Gaza, you name it. And in particular, you've got to cut off the flow of arms and equipment and support to Hamas.”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's not, and it's going to be months and months, right? This is going to take a long time because you're dealing with a very tricky situation. Gaza was very densely populated beforehand, and now with everybody pushing the southern Gaza, it's more densely populated. And we know Hamas has fled there as well. So this gets really tricky. And I fear for the innocent civilians, it's going to be really challenging for the IDF. But what can the U.S. do? Look, I think there are a few things. I think we can continue to dialogue with our Arab partners because I think there is going to be the day after. And what we want to get back to is this normalization process that we had ongoing between Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the United States, where we get some type of alignment between them, an agreement that involves the United States partition. And you get Saudi Arabia leading the Arab states aligned with Israel against Iran. Iran's ultimately the big”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, look, it's always for the people of Israel to decide. Clearly, there's unhappiness with that government. It's viewed as too extreme, too far right. One of the issues that I think he needs to get under control is the settlers in the West Bank. It's hard to find a two-state solution if you have Israeli settlements continuing to crop up in the part of East Jerusalem that many Palestinians think that they could share as a part of the capital. So that's a challenge. And that's why I said at the time, will the Netanyahu government fall immediately or at the end of the conflict? And I think clearly it survived so far, how he conducts this conflict will matter. But at the end, will the Israeli people, will there be a reckoning? And will they look back and say, you didn't conduct it well, or your failures of this administration focusing too much on the West Bank or on the government you were forming, you neglected the situation?”
2023-12-11 · On with Kara Swisher · Mark Esper on Gaza, Iran, China and (of course) Trump · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT