YouSaid · the spoken record

Mary Beard

lines on the record: 45
first: 2023-03-03
most recent: 2023-03-03
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Really beautiful, but she was then raped by a god in the temple of another. And to punish her for being raped, she was turned into a monster who turns everybody to stone. And somehow after all my kind of stuff about how there's loads and loads of really interesting challenges to this gender stereotypes within ancient culture, in the end it's still a culture where who gets punished for the rape? The woman. And Medusa forever stands out as that for me.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, as women in power, essentially yourselves, do you think that there's an argument for using these quite typically? Of portrayals of women such as Medusa in a way that you can sort of turn that into some sort of agency for yourselves being these are women who are feared and there's a certain power in that too. Well that's certainly true of Medusa where there's quite a good feminist history of thinking about that as power and where Natalie Haynes' recent book Stone is partly within that tradition. I think that's true. With Medusa I find that I find it quite hard to do that partly because I come to her through largely the written versions of the myth and the thing that always sticks in my head is why has she got snakey locks? Answer is she was once”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's because I want to watch it because I think it clearly does fit. And I think that what's interesting is that I certainly, you know, because of where I come from in terms of discipline, I tend to think about this in terms of non-moving images, actually. I think about it in terms of sculpture, painting and photography. I think inevitably though, one's informed now by film. And so there's something a little bit artificial about bracketing off non-moving images, although it's something that I'm afraid I always do.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I haven't got my glasses on, but it didn't look the right shape to be from here. That's the question, isn't it? And do we want a world in which there's a spectrum in which there's no difference? How do we think that the history of gender difference, which has been hugely productive in all kinds of ways, often to the disadvantage of women, but also in terms of a cultural binary has been productive? How do we move forward from that? And I wish I knew the answer. I think we've got to, but I don't know how.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. And I think I would want to answer it in terms of some of the big current debates that we're having, which I think are about more than they necessarily appear to be. And what they're about is, is there a difference between men and women? You know, that's the big question. That's the question that the hermaphrodite is partly raising. I think, can I say on the hermaphrodite, that was a Bernini hermaphrodite. And I thought it was the Louvre Hermaphrodite. Please, before you write in everything. The almost identical”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Ultimately, classical ways of representing the woman still actually work in getting people talking and discussing. I rather like it, but not sure that days might be numbered.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And it's very new that Gavin Turk, the sculptor, noticed, as you can see, the arcade of Cambridge train station, very like some of the arcades you see in De Chirico. And he took one of the images of the sleeping Ariadne in De Chirico and covered it up and put sculpted chains round it and put it outside the Cambridge station. This has been hugely, hugely controversial in a way which I think is just, in a sense, reassuring about how these images still mean because there are some people who come along and say, so you get out of Cambridge Station and you see a woman tied up. You know, is that the way to welcome you to Cambridge? There are others of us who say, look, actually this image of a kind of concealed de Curico Ariadne. Is teaching us to look”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“They have a uniform and it's as close to being a man as you could possibly get. I mean, I'm sure it's very sensible outfit if you're kind of hopping off planes and there's all sorts of female politicians who claim that if you try to go on a stage in a skirt, you risk being upskirted and all of it. So it's hugely sensible, but most of all, it's turning you into a bloke.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I will say why I chose it. I think here, in a sense, this is ring composition. We've come back to the very beginning about, but ultimately, whatever you can do if you're Benny and you can take Valerie Amos and all the complexity are ultimately the kind of cliche of woman in power image is that just like Athena, women in power”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Into an image of her own particular power, identity and symbolism. And it's going back a bit to the Emperor Claudius with Lord Sainsbury, I'm afraid, that in the end we think of, you know, I live in a university which is full of pictures of men in Ermine or many disputes. They do define in a way our vision of power. When you put those two together, you know you can see that in some ways I'd like to think that men are sort of a bit let down by that standard image. That's all they can be. A man in power can only be that. So feminists that I am, I think there is a reason for seeing that some of these things get much more complicatedly turned over. And Sainsbury... A bit of centy cloth and some yellow.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think that the kinds of issues that we've been talking about, they go right through to modern portraits, modern images of modern people in power or celebrities. And again, what I felt here was the way that the portrait of Valerie Amos often looked on in terms of a kind of outsider's portrait, you know, this was one of the very first portraits in the House of Lords of a black peer. And it's kind of seen in those terms. But I think when you compare it with poor old Lord Sainsbury, there is absolutely no question here that Benny's version of Amos really wins out. There is a woman who's turned her Kenti cloth into, in the House of Lords, where everybody's wearing silly older.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Elizabeth I Starmada portrait and one of several taking the same themes of the victory of the Spanish Armada. For me what this does is in a sense it goes back to the question of how you represent a woman that's power because In a sense, we've lost the real person here. We don't know whether the real body is. We see her head and we see her hands, but otherwise it is female power represented by excess of fabric and jewels, in this case pearl. Pearls being the classical symbol of virginity. So it's almost as if she's a kind of a mannequin of power rather than a queen. I don't see a queen. I see a model of what power might be if you tried to represent it in female dress. I find them quite sort of unpleasant images.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Can't quite look at her. And although she's naked, you can't see what you can normally see in a nude statue. So you don't see even the covered genitalia. You don't see the breasts. So again, it seems to me it's a case where the sculpture is taken the tradition of the female nude and in absolutely crucial ways utterly undermined it because there can't be a male gaze here. The male gaze can't see what the male gaze wants to see. And she's real and she's magical and she's hanging on the wall. In a way that you'd love to be able to do that”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And here she's being reproduced, literally hanging on the wall upside down by the American sculptor Kiki Smith. What I think is interesting in relation to the tradition of the Venus Knidos that we've just seen is that first of all the body is cast from that of a real woman. So that insofar as we always look at this Venus style nudes and in a sense say that isn't a real woman. This is kind of blazoning its credentials to be a real woman. And she's got amazing, of course you can't see amazing blue shiny eyes. But because of the way she's magically hanging on to the wall, you can't ever really quiet look at her. She's looking at you.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This is kind of one of my favorite, utterly wicked, but just a personal choice in here. But this is bronze statue of Lilith. Lilith being the Jewish mythological devil, really. She devil, often thought of as being the first wife of Adam before Eve. I mean, she does all the things that she devils always do, like eats children and all the rest, you know, you name it. She was reputed in one version of the myth to always insist on making love to Adam on top, which was in order to show him. The boss was”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“These guys, these women It's as if the artist always has to provide an excuse for why he's allowed to show them. And so here, oh, we've just come across her. Oh, she's getting in or out of the bar, right? And there were loads of poems written in antiquity about how come that Praxiteles ever saw me, says the imaginary goddess Venus. How come he ever saw me with no clothes on? And the idea that there's a really dangerous encounter here rather than the absolutely what we now call the heroic nudity of any number of statues of men. These are always awkward. And I think one of the biggest tragedies actually Western art history is the way we've come to take these for granted instead of seeing them as really educating. Shocking, edgy, difficult pieces.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Power of imagery. So when you then, someone like Laura taking that image, she's not stupid, she knows a lot about that sculpture.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The custodian of the temple got a lot and said, do you know what that is? Let me tell you. But the end of the story was the guy went mad and killed himself by throwing himself a cliff. So, you know, actually it is quite hard to take it entirely seriously, I agree. But for me, it captures that sense of this is a sculpture that makes you do, that since man, you know, this is like Medusa. It sends people not just own, sends men mad.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Because what it did to people, there was one very, very famous story which I shall bowlerise slightly, where it during the night a young man in love with it for weeks and weeks and weeks lusted after it, got locked up at night in its temple and made love to it from behind. And you can tell that he did because his mark is still left stained. And that was the...”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This is in a way that I think is very hard for us to recapture now. This is a totally shocking image, this is supposedly a copy of the first ever female full-sized Greek middle of the 4th century BC. And it now looks like every other nude we've always ever seen and walked past hugely, oh, you know, and there's hundreds of them. But at the time, this was an image which, in a sense, I think makes a nice reading with the Laurence Saint, because it was absolutely shocking. The first people, the sculpture offered this to the city said, no thank you. We're not having that. And it became not only a huge tourist attraction, but I think this also really fits with the Lauren Sa. It became infamous.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Study aesthetics, not history. It's really brave. It's absolutely up yours to mail our image there in a way that I think that if you store it without the layo corn or without knowing about the Leo corn, you wouldn't know quite how Up yours, it was.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And what she's done, I think, is even bolder than it looks now because the Loorka one is not just an amazing ancient sculpture which ended up in the Vatican as in a sense kind of the touchstone of what ancient art was all about. By the time you get to the 18th century, it's also, it kick-starts a whole study of art history, really. because people are beginning to say In what sense can the viewer take pleasure in the scene of the man and his kids horribly put to death? What is it about art that enables us to look at that scene with pleasure? So what Kata Kolvitz has done is not just taken over a famous sculpture in order to make her image. What she's done is she's actually appropriated the wellsprings of the whole”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Was absolute filial piety went under the name Roman charity as a shorthand. This was what a girl should do for her dad. It was a heroic act. And yet I find them almost impossible to look at. And I don't know how to evaluate the role of the woman there. She looks partly uncertain. She's looking over her shoulder as if she knows someone's watching her. But I think they're very, very difficult. And I think we always, you know, when being very simple about the power or powerlessness of women in all this, I think we've got to remember that you can't always read these things very simply. Even go back a few hundred years. There's something really complicated going on here, and I just don't know what it is.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Past the outside of the jail in Ghent. And there is a vast sculpture of that particular scene outside the jail, right? Now I simply, it's a kind of just a good example of how we haven't got this problem susch, really, that there are paintings and images about women's power or lack of power and it's not quite clear which that is that still I mean, elude our ability to process them. And I think that's made particularly clear in that one because you can hardly see it on the screen, but just on the top left hand side of the painting, there's a man looking in, presumably the jailer is looking in. So there's a voyeur as well. So you have a kind of sexualized image, an image which was frequently referred to.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I only chose this because I'd like some help and somebody might be able to help. What you've got on the right-hand side is one of the most famous themes in paintings in the 17th and 18th century. The daughter who comes to the prison where her father is in incarceration, starving, and she feeds him from her own breast. It is now, I think a painting that it's almost impossible to get our heads wrapped. Really, really difficult. I mean, we can manage, you know, in a strange way, we can manage the Artemisia. The painting on the right, you barely see them now in galleries because they're in the stores, because nobody really wants to look at it. As I recently did, I went walk.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And the upshot of the story in the book of Daniel is that Daniel heroically makes it very clear that their story is cooked up. And here is a very famous painting because one of the most important issues in the story of Artemisia's own life story is that she was raped. And I think her painting of a woman being threatened in this way has always been difficult to know how to read it but one of the ways of reading it is that this painting actually turns the victim into Victor. Actually those guys don't get away. Artemisia is rapist sort of did but Artemisia manages actually to use paint and to use the story of And the elders, but she does several times, to, in a sense, claim some women's language here in relation to the scene of harassment and rape. Is that how you react?”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's easy to be too simple about the disempowerment of women in art. I mean, I think it's a very important bedrock of how women have been represented, but it's always being subverted. And I feel that very strongly about the Artemisia Gentileschi, Susanna and the elders on the left, where these two ghastly men in the biblical story threatening.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's what I think is really interesting, isn't it? Look, who's looking at who and what bits are we looking at? All you see is her face in the mirror, but you do see the face.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But I was always taught that wrongly. I was taught the story as if it was she was objecting to the display of female flesh. I was taught it in a kind of 1960s, 70s version. And in fact, when I went back, it's exactly as you say she's objecting to the valuation.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And that's very clear in some of the ancient paintings on the same theme Where you have what looks like the beautiful woman lying in the countryside under a rock and a goatee pan-like figure is coming up and is going to rape her, actually. And then you see him in the act of removing a veil, as it were, and seeing what she is. And so it's partly a joke on the male gaze. You can't actually believe your eyes. But he is also at the same time a problem about what gender is.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Made even more expensive by Bernini. And what you do is you see that gender is being challenged. And so even within what looks like the most classic standard image of the woman, it's kind of undermined. You can't ever, they're already saying, you can't take this at face value.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It is a fantastic, it's worth doing in the loop. You see some people know what they're going to get on the other side. Other people think, Hang on a minute. And I think it's a very interesting piece, particularly within current debates, because I think it's a reminder that back in the 3rd century BC, there were issues about gender identity, how fluid it was. That sculpture only makes sense if it's put in the context of people starting or maybe going on asking the question of what's a woman and what's a man. If it's a joke, as I was, you know, when I was an undergraduate, I was told it was a bit of a joke. If it's a joke, it's an extremely expensive joke.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The complexity is different because what every visitor to this sculpture in the Louvre knows is that this looks from the back as if it is a classic woman constructed by male artist to satisfy male gaze. You also know that if you walk around it to the other side, you find that she's not a woman at all, or she's only partly a woman. She has breasts, but she also has male genitals.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, it makes a great pair with the gravel because this is what graverol's got in mind. And this itself is a kind of wonderful composite because the actual figure is Greek original, probably second century with some Bernini editions. The mattress is entirely Bernini, but I think it makes a wonderful kind of pair for lots of reasons with the grav roll because whoever did that original nude, almost nude figure, which is the centerpiece, is already playing with our expectations because we're seeing it here from the same vista as we see, the graverol, and we think, but the”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“His accessories are a bit unfortunate. I think we try not to blame the accessories. But there is always, and I think this is where we, you know, women like me constantly going on about the problems of representing female power. You've got to remember that in terms of male power, it's not as simple as you might think. And the boundary between power and mad megalomania Which is what we learn about throughout the images of Roman emperors, is a very dodgy one. So I think one of the things we're hoping to kind of look at just occasionally in this session is to see that it's not as if men and the representations of men are completely straightforward. They're also bound up with the problems of representations of women.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The eagle nibbling his knee. Partly saying, I am Jupiter, the king of the gods with my eagle, but it's also saying, I mean it looks very silly. Now you can imagine that classicists go two ways on this. One is, you know, they didn't quite pull it off, did they? The other is even in the imperial sculpture workshops, the desire to satirize the emperor actually won out.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“its sting is being drawn by this perfect version of her with her baby and meanwhile just so you don't think that men get off completely scoff free we've got an attempt to make a really powerful image of the umper Claudius her husband Men are implicated in the problem here because whoever did this sculpture of Claudius making him look a bit like the king of the gods has succeeded I think in doing nothing more than making him look very stupid indeed right so that kind of those that repertoire of male power doesn't always come off and I think that's something images aren't always successful”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I threw this pair of images in just to kind of say, look, these images are being more complicated from the very beginning, that the ancient world is both, as it were, giving us the building blocks, but it's also playing with them. And on the left, you have one of the most notorious women in the whole of Roman history, Messalina, the woman who is a medusa in all kinds of ways. She reputed to have challenged the prostitutes of Rome to a competition to see how many men she could sleep with in one night. She's married to the Emperor Claudius, right? And here's what's happening here is that she's being turned into a virtuous mother. In some ways, that kind of the literary tradition about Messalina.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“On mugs, you know, you name it, it must have been bought by people who would never really have known what the myth of Perseus and Medusa was. But somehow the point is kind of embedded in culture, in Western culture, about the man triumphing over the monstrous woman. And just for good measure at the bottom, you think it's just Clinton on the right, we have mimicking the caravaggio on the left, Angela Merkel. And even, let me tell you, even Theresa May was written off by the police gazette as the Medusa of Maidenhead. That is. So you can see that we're still dealing with those images”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The other version of seeing her is on the right, and this goes again, it runs through all our versions of what a dangerous woman is. Woman is either dangerous because she's horrible, or she's dangerous because she's beautiful and lovely. And she is going to turn you to stone. But she's going to do that through seduction and beauty. And that kind of opposition between the hag and the temptress is something that we still play with and was being enjoyed and played with back in the 6th century BC. And these have gone really, really deep into our way of seeing things. And here you can see just how deep they've gone because There is barely a modern female powerful politician who has not herself been represented as Medusa.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And what ancient both Greco and Romano art does is give you two options of how to see the transgressive power of women. And that often clusters around, but user, the gorgon with snakey locks who will turn anybody who looks at her to stone. You see that in N2 versions, one an early version on the left where Medusa is literally monstrous. She's telling you, don't look at me, you know, because I will turn you to stone if you do.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of maleness. So it's a classic case of the powerful woman being dressed as a bloke. And if by any chance you missed the message, on the right hand side, underneath the statue from the Parthenon, underneath is you just see a small bit of relief sculpture what that showed was Pandora the idea of the first female who messed things up and opened the books and let out trouble into the world. So actually the real woman is underneath being the villain, the powerful woman is the man at the top. We've never escaped that. We look at it now and we think, oh, that's Athena. Really shocking because she's non binary, basically, in modern terms. I think we have Medusinet. Well, we criticize the whole hour going through classical women, but we can start to add bits to that basic template of female power. And here is female power for the bad.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The most powerful woman in the divine pantheon of the Greek world is Athena, patron deity of Athens. Here you see her on the left and her on the splendid pot on the right, I think, in a slightly vulgar way, but probably absolutely correct. It is the replica of the cult statue of Athena from the Parthenon, which is now in Nashville, Tennessee. And it's a very, very good reason to visit Nashville, Tennessee. But what stands out for me from these images is that she is represented as a man, essentially. She is a female deity, but here she is in armor, she's helmeted, she has all the accoutrements.”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“By trying to understand exactly where the Western tradition of female representation actually begins. And then perhaps we can discover if there is some sort of continuity or thread that connects those origins with how women are represented today. So Mary, I'm going to invite you to start our conversation. And I'm going to say something extremely predictable, which is that I don't think that you can properly understand not just the ways we represent women now, but the debates and contestations and complexities of that, unless you go back to the ancient world. I think in some ways the building blocks are already established there. They're invented there in the West. And the absolute classic example has to be...”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We are here today as one of the panel talks in a series of panel talks organized as part of Sotheby's women artists campaign. At the heart of this campaign is the celebration of historically undervalued female creativity and a chance to explore the underrepresentation of women artists in the commercial art sector and wider. Today our theme is women and power and who better to talk about that than Professor Mary Beard, Britain's best loved classicist, celebrated author and perhaps most famously my former lecturer when I read classics 15 years ago at Cambridge and here to chair our talk is the incomparable critic and cultural commentator Shahidabari. With that I will pass over to Shahida. Thank you Holly. Obviously this is going to be such a fascinating discussion isn't it between the two of these people? Shall we start?”
2023-03-03 · Intelligence Squared · Mary Beard on Women and Power in Western Culture · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT