YouSaid · the spoken record

Masha Gessen

lines on the record: 87
first: 2019-08-14
most recent: 2019-08-14
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“And so they wanted to be a part of NATO. And this idea that the United States provoked Russia by taking those countries under its wing completely ignores the agency and desire of the people of those countries. Kosovo, I think, was huge. And I think that we still have to reckon with the corrosive effect of the illegal bombing campaign in Kosovo, both on Russia, but also on American politics and on international politics and politics of military intervention.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I don't have a lot of patience for the NATO expansion argument for the simple reason that it fails to take into account the countries that joined NATO. All the countries that joined NATO, without exception, asked to join NATO, begged to join NATO because they wanted to have protection against Russia, which had colonized them, which they had good reason to suspect might want to colonize them again.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“A defense attorney who defended dissidents in the Soviet Union and ended up having to immigrate to this country quite late. I think she was in her 60s or 70s when she finally got forced out of the country. But it's an incredible sort of anatomy of the corruption of not just the Soviet court system, but of the possibility of legal thinking in the Soviet Union. I think it's the best book about the Soviet system that I know. Fun fact, Dina Kaminska was Dmitry Syme's mother.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Okay, so two books I would recommend. One is Procherk, which is one's Omission or Ellision by Lije Chaikowska, which is an amazing book about About the absence of her husband. He was arrested when they were quite young. I think she was 25. She never saw him again. And she spent the next, she was a great writer who wrote many great books. But this was a book that she kept going back to over the course of, I think, 45 years up until her death, trying to write it. And it's a book about absence, but it's also a book about the absolute senselessness of terror. And I think that's one of the hardest things for a writer to convey. Because how do you write about something that is senseless the moment you start writing about it, you're imbuing it with meaning? It's actually very, very hard, and that book succeeds. And another book that I love is, I think has been translated into English. It's by Gina Kaminske, and it's called An Attorney's Notes or something like that. She was a”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, it has to be not just parallel but polis, right? And polis can't be homogenous. There has to be some sort of cooperation across difference for parallel polis or any kind of polis to exist. That's something that doesn't happen a whole lot on the internet. I also think that, again, politics is something that has a physical dimension. So I'm only looking at actually existing physical projects. In the States, I'm looking at a particular complicated project in Detroit that's an urban farm slash public space slash history slash community-based economy project. And I'm not actually looking at any in Russia.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It actually goes to what I said earlier about Putin's economy of means. There's as much control as necessary. The Internet Oversight Agency has shut down access to a number of opposition websites. That means the vast majority of Russians don't have access even if they maybe want to, right? They don't have access to anything that contradicts the dominant narrative. But the internet's not a push media. The internet is a place where you don't get answers to questions you don't ask. I think that the Kremlin is sensitive to that even if they can't necessarily articulate it. There's not a whole lot of danger coming out of the internet for the Kremlin.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I would actually tell them that maybe it's better to have not quite such amazingly trained talent, but to live in a freer society.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think that Russia is very likely to cord NOFT's internet. I think that the pretext would be cybersecurity. which may not be quite so much a pretext, I think that the effect and the desired effect would be total informational isolation of the Russian public.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But I would argue that it's not because it's one individual at a time watching the video on YouTube going out into the public square and going home without actually having done anything together with any other people in their town except for being present in the square at that particular moment. And that is completely different from actual political organizing and collective action as we know it. Does that distinction matter? I think it does. I think that the experience of physically and on an ongoing basis interacting with other people in the political space is essential for politics.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There are also limitations to that kind of organizing, and I find those limitations fascinating because when we talk about organizing, we usually assume that there's a kind of collective action at work. And politics is acting with others. And I think that there's a very different kind of organizing than Navalny does because Navalny will publish an appeal on YouTube and people will go out and protest in more than 100 towns around Russia at the same time. And it looks like collective action.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, it's a great question, and I don't want to exaggerate because, as you know, we've gone from this dominant idea of the internet as inherently democratic to this dominant idea of the internet as inherently undemocratic. And it's not inherently anything. Alexei Navalny has been able to use his online presence to circumvent the Kremlin's control over the public sphere. That has required a set of conditions. The most important of which is just, he is very good at what he does and he found the one thing that millions and millions of Russians find compelling, which is proving corruption and validating their sense of constantly being lied to and stolen from.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Expectations of the possibility of political action. There are very different expectations of accountability despite the very high level of corruption in Ukraine, whereas Russia has basically spent the last 20 years as an autocracy. And Russians have this magical thinking, both the Kremlin and the opposition have this magical idea that Ukraine is like a smaller mirror of Russia and whatever happens in Ukraine is then going to happen in Russia.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I mean, that's a great question, actually, because it is a very common fallacy. And it is a fallacy that comes from Russia, which fails to understand both Russian, both the Kremlin and the Russian opposition actually fail to understand that Ukraine is a separate country. with at this point a very different political culture. It's been a generation, right? since the Soviet Union collapsed. And Ukraine has spent that generation now more than a generation, 28 years. Ukraine has spent that period in a transitional state. It hasn't been a functional democracy, but it has also not been an autocracy in that long, right? So that has created a completely different set of expectations and a really very different culture. And I feel it when I go to Ukraine, when I talk to people, when I interview people, you realize that there are different kinds of relationships of trust. They're very different.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't know that that's a great analogy. The Soviet Union Genuinely an empire, you know, it was just a contiguous empire, so not everybody recognized it as such. But there was an imperial power. There were many, many, many colonized people. The borders between those colonies were known. And there was in every colony there was a national identity that could be kind of resurrected and a national narrative that could be created. I don't think that's true. And I mean, it's not true in this country, right? We have borders between states, but we don't have national identities in states, and we don't have clear ethnic majorities in different states that would create that kind of national narrative. So I'm having trouble with the parallel, sorry.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“then that choice shouldn't be validated right i find that deeply problematic because i think it doesn't correspond to everybody's human experience of sexuality and i also think that it is ultimately it is ultimately not progressive it ultimately is not liberatory right but it is of course as a reductionist narrative very useful and it has proven to be politically at least in the short term very effective in this country i mean a lot of the gains in gay rights have been rooted in that argument”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, it has proven to be an extremely effective political tool. This is the narrative. And I want to make it clear I'm not critiquing or criticizing Pete Buddhaj's personal story. Obviously his story is his story. I'm criticizing his choice to use this narrative that is a very traditional gay rights narrative that is rooted in the argument of choicelessness and implicit in that argument is this idea that Gay people should have rights. because they didn't have any other option and that if sexuality were choosable”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“With suspicion. That's a fair question. Yes. Unless it's a kind of collective drunken moment of acceleration, yes, excessive cheers is viewed with suspicion. One might be suspected of being an optimistic idiot.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And I look, I started there and I look at some societies that are very close to being totalitarian in the sense that people have no influence on the larger politics of it and look at those kinds of projects there. And then I argued that actually that has implications not just for totalitarian societies, but for societies wherever a democracy is broken or part of a democracy is broken. You can see an imaginative project like that can be very important. And then I even argued that it doesn't even have to be a non-state actor. It can be a state actor that creates a project that kind of imagines something into being.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So I'm working on a book. I'm actually about to set it aside for a couple of months, but I've been working on a book for a couple of years on imaginative political projects. And it's based on a concept from Czechoslovakia from the 1970s, from Charter 77, the concept of the parallel polis, which is, and I think you might actually find this might relate to your work in a way. So the idea of the parallel polis is that in a totalitarian society, you can create a sort of an experimental society that functions according to a different set of rules in at least one area. So it might be economically different or socially different or politically different or religiously different or different in other areas. And then when the totalitarian society collapses under its own weight all around you, you have a working model of the future.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think there is. I see that among my older kids' friends, like when as teenagers, they started bringing friends home and I realized that these young people had no experience socializing with people their parents' ages.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think that the best thing I do as a parent, and I do many things not very well, but the best thing I do as a parent is all my kids have always been included in adult conversations. We always talk about everything. Part of it is laziness. I mean, I can't separate things out, but my kids have grown up. Hang out with adults being very comfortable being part of adult conversation, but also knowing that they can have a say and they can have an opinion on whatever political issues being discussed regardless of what age they are.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I buy books on Amazon. A lot of the time books just come. I mean, that's the advantage of being a writer and a journalist is that people send me books.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't know, actually, I'm not convinced that there's anything surprising in my bookshelf. I think it's probably predictable.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And I think that there's a difference. I will then, you know, when the book is ready, I will then print it out and edit it again on paper. But every time you read when you're reading on paper and you're reading on screen, you're seeing completely different things.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Because I think that the process of writing longhand is more linear. If you ever look at how you write, or if I ever look at how I write, if I just write on a computer, unless it's a column is also pretty linear. I mean, I outline it and then I just fill in every paragraph. And I do that on a computer. But if I write a very long piece, I don't notice how much I jump around when I'm writing on a computer. You can't do that on paper. You have to keep going. And then it poses a kind of narrative structure. That is unbreakable. I mean, one sentence has to follow the previous sentence. You can't go back and reinsert it, right? So it keeps me very focused, I find. And the other thing it does is that when I'm typing it up, I'm reading it on paper.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And someone types it No, I write books longhand and then I type them up chapter by chapter. So I write a chapter out long hand.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, of course, it can't not stick. I mean, it may be traumatic because they don't get to play with some of the same things that their friends play with, but it makes an impression.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I don't know, I mean maybe well, one way it shaped my views is that I'm a pacifist and I think that being a war reporter will do that for you. That's actually influenced how I bring up my kids never guns in the house. There are no war games and I talk to them at length about why that is.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, I think that those are research questions. I don't feel a deficit in that area because you can always do the research to answer a research question. I think there are sort of cultural deficits that I have because I didn't grow up here. And in fact, I haven't lived here most of my life. In some ways that gives me a good perch because it's sometimes really beneficial to write about things as an outsider, as an informed outsider. But I think where I'm at a huge disadvantage is race politics, not having grown up in this country. I never feel on solid footing.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's a question that is actually objectively impossible to answer. Because if I understood what I don't understand, then I'd go and understand it, wouldn't I?”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Switch among podcasts a lot. But then, you know, I go hiking and I go offline for 24 hours and stuff happens. And then I discover that it happened days later because there's another new psych. I mean, you know, like the insanity of the news cycle is... Impossible.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My dream is to feel like I have a better handle and things. I mean, Russia is much simpler in a way. Very little happens, in fact. Or what happens is more or less the same thing over and over again. So I find it, and that's what I mean when I say that Facebook spending time on Facebook is really part of my work. I try to have a sense of, you know, the temperature of the air, the flavor of the conversation. And that's where social networks use strategically. I think are extremely useful. It's the kind of research tool that I didn't have as a young journalist, and I really appreciate it now. As for American politics, I'm always in fear of missing stuff, like major stuff. I listen to a lot of podcasts. I bike a lot. And whenever I'm biking, I'm listening to podcasts and I try to...”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“This is true. I don't actually think I read an extraordinary amount. I'm a pretty slow reader. It's just I have the luxury, you know, I have a year or two to write a book and I can read extensively on the topic. And I absorb very well. And then I forget it all. A friend of mine once called me an empty pot.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That I did an estrogen at a very low dose, but that has created a kind of non-binary gender situation for me. But for me, sort of the physical stuff was primary and then the gender stuff was secondary.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That go with womanhood. I thought, well, this is, you know, like now I'm a body without organs and hormones. So what am I going to do with this? And I've actually made decisions about hormones, hormone replacement, as a kind of blank slate, right? I went on female hormones at first. I went to an estrogen. I'm in female and male, obviously, you know, both men and women have both estrogen and testosterone, but in different proportions. And I felt horrible. I felt really, really awful taking estrogen. I thought, okay, let me go in the other direction. And I started taking testosterone. And I'm having a lot more fun on testosterone.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You ask all the really easy questions. You know, it actually, I don't know that it changed my sense of what is valuable in life. I definitely think that life is more important than breasts. But I probably thought that before that question was put to me as well. But it actually had an impact sort of long term on how I think about gender, right? So, you know, I was not at that time particularly thinking about experimenting with gender. I was perfectly happy living as a woman and having all the organs that go with that. And then as I went on and shed the organs,”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Surgery that a mistuck to me is and that has clearly visible results actually has no impact on health whatsoever. But doctors have this very strong bias that results from what is an easier surgery with a shorter recovery time, but then no long-term consequences seems like a better solution to them.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“One of the people I went to. And many other people. But yes, that was actually one of the best interviews. Although, you know, we devised a formula together and the formula suggested that I should have both the Uphorectomy and the mastectomy. But then I ended up deciding to just have the mastectomy. But one of the things I realized, and this is just a small illustration of how of people's heuristics, I realized that doctors were pushing women to have opherectomies, their removal of the ovaries, and not mastectomies. Because an ouphorectomy is a very easy surgery, and you cannot see outward expressions of it. The easy surgery has a much greater impact on health. I mean, everything in your body is hormone dependent in some way or another. And so it is, it completely changes the functioning of the body, whereas the more complex”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And the project was to conduct a series of interviews with people who could give me information that would help me make a decision. And then at the end of the series, make a decision. So I did that over the course of something like eight weeks for Slate. cast a much wider net than you normally would. Normally people would go talk to an oncologist and a genetic counselor and make a decision.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, I haven't fully kept up with the research. I did end up having my ovaries removed when I was 50. But I'm really glad I had the extra more than a decade of hormones. I would say do your research. I think that some of the interesting things that I found when I was researching, and the reason I end up writing a book is that when I found out I had this deleterious mutation, this was really in the early days of this kind of thing. And I just felt like, I realized I couldn't process information. So then I thought, oh, well, I used to be a medical reporter. I used to be able to read medical papers and actually process this stuff. So I just have to stop thinking of myself as the person who's trying to make a decision and think of this as a research project. So then I sold a series of stories to Slate.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's the kind of stress environment that is created even for an unschooled kid, so outside a high-pressure high school environment, even with a parent who is like me.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“University, and it's not, you know, it doesn't have the import that it has here, where young people feel like their lives depend on it, depend on where they get in, which seems just absurd. And I'm rambling because this is very close to home, because I'm also involved in these arguments with my kids about their education. And I say to my daughter, look, it doesn't matter which college you go to. You can get a really good education anywhere, right? Which is true in this country. And you can also be miserable anywhere. So just look at some places, look at what looks good to you, have a few safety schools, relax. It says, no, no, you don't understand. I'm never going to be successful if I don't go to one of the best colleges. That is patently not true.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't think Nobel Prizes are a great way to measure it because a lot of people come to the United States to do research in university settings and end up winning Nobel Prizes. That doesn't tell us a whole lot about the difference between higher education in this country and the countries that we draw from, right? But look at Australian education next to free, basically the stress of getting into a university is it exists, but it's so much less than it is in this country. You basically assume that you're going to go to university in your city. The best university or the second best or the third best, you're going to get in, you're going to get an education. That education is going to allow you to work professionally after you get an independent, depending on your grades, you're going to get into the better or the worst.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I mean, it means we have to talk about to learn to think about higher education as a public good. There has to be a way to create publicly funded higher education that doesn't cost an impossible amount of money for most people who want to get higher education. I think it would also have the result of leveling sort of the field among colleges. I mean, there are lots of normal countries that have normal higher education where they avoid.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Everything that happened in the Americans happened not in what people said, but what they felt, how they acted things. I mean, in that sense, it was very good filmmaking. Whereas in Chernobyl, everything is processed and dispensed and explained and over-explained in dialogue. And I think that What made the Americans so good and made it get better as it went on was the psychological depth of not speaking things out, but showing things and, you know, and showing relationships develop and disintegrate on screen without everything having to be spelled out.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I thought all of it was actually amazing, but the Americans is like the exact opposite of Chernobyl. In the sense that it's actually, and it was a very strange experience for me as a translator because I translated all the Russian scenes in the last three seasons. And there was like almost nothing in the dialogue.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Currently, probably overrated. I think we've gotten used to the idea that we're in the golden age of television, which in the sense of how many things are being produced is absolutely true. But if there used to be the presumption that if something is on television, that's probably terrible and if it has any redeeming qualities to it, that's already extraordinary. And I think we've gone over to the opposite side where we assume that something is a masterpiece. So, you know, for example, I had to endure the five episodes of Chernobyl because I had to write about it. And it was really an ordeal. I thought it was terrible. And not just because I thought it was reductionist, but I thought that writing was awful. The dialogue was horrible. And I don't know why, like, you know, it was incredibly well received by critics among others. It's like we no longer have an ear for bad writing.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“For me, it's essential, it's essential to my work. It doesn't feel like a waste of time. Sometimes it's a waste of time. But if it's a waste of time, it's basically me working inefficiently, but it's an essential part of my work.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, Rush, I'm in. Russia is a conformist society. And people, yeah, my friends have kids who have different names. But it only became possible really to give your children names that kind of marked them out after the Soviet Union collapsed. So all of my friends have the same name and then all of our children have bizarrely different names.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“you sometime maya My older son, I mean, he graduated from high school here in New York, but he went to specialized music school high school. Not a football playing school. And my second child is unschooled.”
2019-08-14 · Conversations with Tyler · M. Gessen on the Ins and Outs of Russia · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source