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Maxine Bédat

lines on the record: 39
first: 2022-11-16
most recent: 2022-11-16
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“Folks to get involved, to have their voices heard. And that's going to be the thing that either gets things like the Fashion Act passed or not. To me, that's being both a realist and, you know, that's why I get motivated every day is that I know that solutions are there. And there are companies throughout the supply chain that are working on change. And if you can change the underlying laws, you help accelerate the progress that those companies are already making. So there's a lot to be hopeful for, but we can't just rest on our laurels and we can't just expect that somebody else is doing the work for us. We need to get involved.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I am optimistic. Basically, I'm a realist, right? Like we have an opportunity, all of us, to either engage in these subjects or not engage. If we do engage and we engage ourselves as citizens to demand these things, these things will change. And, you know, if you look at even the organic food movement in the United States that has become quite significant, that got started from moms who were fed up with the pesticides on apples being served to their kids. You know, you get a concentrated group of folks together. You can change policy and change the way things are operating. So that gives me great promise. It's not that these things are intractable, can't go away, but it is up to us to actually step up and participate. And so, you know, in that way, I'm a realist. Like, let's, it's an invitation, you know, for.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This idea that it's frivolous, it's meaningless, yet it is one of the most significant polluting industries drives culture and commerce globally, you know, one of the largest employers of women, kind of the most exploited class, you know, generating some of the greatest wealth accumulation globally. But yeah, we haven't put it under the microscope or put any attention to it in the way we have with other industries because it is seen as frivolous or girly or silly. And I think that's to the detriment of the industry and the planet and its people.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, definitely. I mean, how many times have I spoken to environmental leaders? And, you know, again, this has changed over the past just couple of years or is changing, I should say, and spoken to them about just the environmental impact, which is more than France, Germany, and the United Kingdom combined and just becoming worse over time. So of huge significance and an environmental leader will be like, oh, that's sweet. You should meet my wife. She loves clothing. Which is if the wife carried the purse strings and the influence, like sure that's fine, but that is not likely the case in those circumstances. So I think that it has been very late in the game because of”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Know inviting them into the process because through this and through the work of the new Standard Institute, I spend a lot of time speaking to shoppers. And if you spend any time actually thinking about it, people do not have a happy relationship with the clothing that they buy. You know, it is not just physically overwhelming their wardrobes that they are expanding them. And, you know, there's some psychology research on how that's actually increasing stress levels in people, but it's not clothing that makes them feel particularly good. This isn't saying don't ever buy anything ever again and you should feel guilty all the time. It's the opposite. It's an invitation to actually like your clothing again. It's an invitation to get to know your own body and your own style and what works for that rather than just being the passive receivers of tons of marketing messaging. And so it's not.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You know, feeling like there's a product that is kind of missing in my wardrobe. I will go to that Pinterest board and see, do I still like that thing? You know, is that something I really is really going to be of use to me? So I've definitely slowed my clothing consumption down. I feel a lot better about the purchases that I do make just because I know I've really thought about what role they are playing in my life like in my you know daily uniform. And so yeah, I think I've definitely become more thoughtful in my purchases as a result, but I am not looking into kind of every claim that that company has. The most important thing for me is, is this going to be something I'm going to wear often? Do I actually need it? Do I actually like it? And that's going to be the thing, at least from an environmental point of view. The most significant driver of”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In honesty, I don't focus so much of my attention on that because I know that the disclosures that a company would have would not actually tell me enough to be able to make an informed decision. So when I am going about making a purchase, first of all, I've done a few things to stop the habit or the urge. So I've stopped following influencers on Instagram. unsubscribe from Instagram every once in a while. You know, I've removed the reminder emails coming from brands all the time that flood your inbox, you know, all throughout the day. So I have fewer cues in my day to consume and go shopping. That has helped very much. And then I kind of put in little roadblocks for me to make sure that I'm, you know, being thoughtful. So if I like something, you know, I'll save it on a Pinterest board. And then if I actually”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Was so eye opening of like, wait a minute, we've been, this is something we've been taught. This is not some inevitability like we just don't care. We've been trained to always see ourselves as consumers so we can train ourselves to see ourselves as citizens who can actually have an outcome on policy. And so I think that to me was kind of the most profound impact of writing the book was to reorient myself. a campaigner or I didn't call myself an environmentalist or that wasn't how I defined myself but I just Citizen, you know, person in the world that has a kid and another one coming that, you know, I cared about the planet and its people and this is what was going to be necessary to affect change. I think that to me was the most profound outcome of writing the book.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It really crystallized for me through the writing, through the travel, just how many resources environmental, human, and otherwise go into every product that we purchase. And so, you know, that was very much made real to me in the story of this book. And so that's not something you can unsee. So I think about that, you know, if I'm making a purchase. But I think, you know, ultimately the book empowered me as a citizen. I kind of didn't realize, you know, there's a whole chapter of the book on marketing and how we've really been trained to see ourselves as consumers first rather than citizens that can possibly have an impact on policy. That part to me, the research for that chapter.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Just have so much of it, right? You know, there's over a hundred billion new units of clothing sold every year. It's become, you know, in order to have those sorts of volumes, you know, companies are building business models purely around disposability. So it's not a quality product. It's hyper trendy. And so it's something that looks good from afar, but once you see it up close, it's not something you really want to be wearing very often. So we just have too much clothing. And there isn't, you know, it's enough clothing every year for every man-woman and child on the planet to have a whole brand new wardrobe. The planet and its people can't handle it, don't want this stuff. And so that's why we're having trouble finding, you know, ultimate buyers for these things.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Or informal waste management, which is just burning the product. So we're really exporting our excesses to regions of the world that have less capacity than we do to handle this stuff. And all while we think we're donating and doing something great.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“or men suiting, put in a bale and sold throughout the global south. So, you know, part of my book was traveling to Ghana. There's also big secondhand markets in places like Chile, where then those bales are sold and you can't see what's inside of them. So there's a lot of risk taken on by the sellers. And there's attempts to then sell the product there. The problem is that not only is it limiting those countries' abilities to develop their own market, but it is also becoming waste there. Researchers are finding, and they're still limited data on this, but one graduate school study found that 40% of the clothing in this one market in a major market in Ghana, Contamanto, 40% of the stuff that was coming in was never sold at all and went directly to either the landfill”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, so when we don't donate our clothes, you know, there's this idea that we are, you know, that is being given away to somebody that is in need. It's not exactly what happened. So when we donate our clothing, if I'll take a US example, say it will be sold in the Salvation Army, it's being sold to anybody who comes in there. And the funds that are generated from that sale go to then whatever nonprofit cause. But very little of that is sold on the sales floor of those stores. Something like only 6% of the clothing that is coming in actually makes its way into a shopper's cart and they're actually buying it. The rest of that is unsaleable there. And so that excess is bundled up and sold off by category, so like women's summer tops.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, you don't actually engage with understanding just how much trash we are producing, but it is enormous amounts. It's 80 kilograms a year in the United States of just pure apparel waste. And even when we donate our clothes, it's a whole other waste stream, just something that we've exported to the global south.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, it doesn't, essentially. And I think I don't know who said it, but there's no way, right? When we throw something away, it's going to a place or even when we give it away and we think it's going to one place, it all ends up in a landfill or being burned. So yeah, very little, very, very, very little of it is being recycled into a new garment. We just don't have the technical capacity and skills to do that, nor do we have this kind of infrastructure we would need to sort out the clothing in advance because once you've removed a label off of something, you don't know, it's hard to forensically figure out what that product even is. So yes, and all of this is happening. I think sometimes, you know, in places like New York where garbage collection is so efficient are certainly, you know, in the UK and Europe, you don't see trash.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Rather than this kind of one day or one machine that's going to magically take all the jobs away, I don't want to say magically, that's not the right word, obviously. But I think it's more that, yes, there is this constant kind of little by little the jobs will be taken over by machines. And I think we have to really think about that. That's kind of the question of our time, you know, and how do we have those jobs in a way that's not exploitative to the people or the planet at the same time? And that's really, I think, the challenge for us in the next decade.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so it was interesting to speak to the textile factory owners and the garment factory owners. It's not like there's one machine that's going to come and completely take away all of the jobs at once. It was more that over time they expected different steps to be taken over by either more efficiency or that that could be replaced by a machine. I think previously kind of automation has been seen as yes one robot will come in and like do all the things and that doesn't seem to be the case, certainly in the garment production world because automation is very good for repeated, very simple tasks. And there's, you know, if you put in a waistband into your genes, you have to curve around, which is not something an algorithm can pick up so easily.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“No child care is available. And very kind of basic things like this where it just, you know, for this one woman that you were mentioning in the book, it just doesn't compute. Like she literally, there is no solution for her. It's not just that it's difficult and stressful. There was literally nothing that she could where she could take her child. And so I think it's, you know, we tend to think about these things as kind of global north and global south problems, but how we are structuring things, the lives of the people are contending with some of the similar issues as we begin to only think about people as the output that they can have.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, well, I think, you know, what I found in speaking to people that are working within these Amazon facilities in the US is in terms of that mechanized labor that I was speaking about with the garment workers, it's very similar every second is monitored and maximized, so it's a very similar kind of speaking to them about the pressures of their day. It's very similar and then also in the same category just the you know when you start to work with industrial engineers who think about people as you know just an input number rather than the humans, full humans that they are, you get these outcomes where you know hours can change or hours are set that make it impossible to actually have a child and take care of them because they are required to go into the company at a time when”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“advance and prioritize for companies what they have to do so it's not a well we're gonna put money to this if we can kind of build a case that it improves our bottom line no we're gonna fund this because this is the requirement to do business in this jurisdiction and I think that's the direction that we're really going to need to go and companies that are well on their way you know will benefit in that environment and you know so should see it as a good thing as well”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so I always want to believe in this talk. And I think I never try to apply intention to it, but I look at the broader context in which these, you know, promises are being made. And we still exist in a profit maximizing economy that's still where rewards are given in the stock market. And until that changes, we should expect that those promises are not going to be the top priority. And so you begin to see within industry, you know, if you have these quiet conversations, they'll say, oh, you know, we've signed up for science-based targets, the big climate target. But then they will admit, well, that's really an aspiration for us. It's more kind of directional. And so I think that's why legislation is critical because it will help.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We didn't start out that way, but I think we're seeing now within the EU, within the United States, and elsewhere kind of creative legislative means in which we can start building these things into the system and improving things so it's a race to the top rather than this race to the bottom that we currently find ourselves.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so a few things. One is that we chose, and it was the same, you know, some of the same companies who lobbied against having including labor and environmental standards in trade deals. So it's not this inevitability, right, that we have this globalized world where it's this race to the bottom and brands try to find the cheapest places and kind of pit one country against each other to who has the lowest environmental standards and the lowest labor standards, we could have, we can, could and can make it a prerequisite for trade. So that's, I think, one kind of area within trade deals, but barring short of that, we can, you know, start incorporating it into our national and state laws. If you want to sell into our jurisdiction, these are our prerequisites and our requirements. So there are ways to do it.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Had a major impact. You know, this is something that we're now contending with and trying to understand better. But in areas, you know, and this is not to poo-poo globalization, it's the way in which we chose to do globalization. I think that has proven to be problematic. As those jobs, as those manufacturing jobs left the United States, there were pockets of communities that didn't have opportunities for employment. And that, you know, there's been surveys and research that have shown kind of those.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's a huge change, right? So we went from brands actually came out of the factory floor. They were the way to out of the factories they wanted to highlight the strengths of the skills coming out of that factory. And that's where the brand originated from in the apparel space. And we've moved from that world where the brand was producing the garment to today where the brand isn't producing anything at all. That's a fundamental change of what that company actually is or what the fashion industry actually is. They've gone from producers to, as you mentioned, marketers, designers, but really just matching the product for the market, not actually trying to, you know, be focused on inequality or any kind of things in the weeds within the factory itself.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Impact of the institution of slavery. And then through today with globalization, how pair of genes used to predominantly be made in the United States and now the largest producer of denim is in Bangladesh. So it really traces globalization at the same time. So it tells us the story of our past, our present, and hopefully our future as well.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Because a pair of jeans it's such a product that we all engage with, right? You know, almost everybody has a pair of jeans on any given day. I'm most likely wearing jeans, make cuts across globally we're all wearing them, cuts across socioeconomic status. And as you pointed out in that sentence in the book, it was once seen as this very American product that represented freedom around the world and really had a like a very strong positive meaning. And now it's kind of so ubiquitous. There's no association at all. It's just kind of the background in our lives. And I think also with that, the story of genes both ties us back to history, you know, with the story of genes, we tell the story of cotton and the global role that cotton has played and certainly within that have to embark on the”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so if we look at every other industry that has been regulated, it's following some of those cues. So California passed the fuel efficiency standards. And so what that was was essentially saying if you want to sell in our large market, you as a car company have to produce your car in a certain way and have to have certain outcomes. I think that's a very similar kind of approach that we've taken with the New York Fashion Act is if you want to sell in New York as a company, you know, this is these are the requirements for doing so. And that's how you get to kind of the fundamentals of what is the company doing about the climate crisis? What is that company doing about their contribution to chemical management within the supply chain? What is that company doing with regard to the workers who are actually producing their garments?”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Consuming, or move citizens to try to engage with their lawmakers. And we've helped introduce legislation in New York called the New York Fashion Act that has global implications, but helping support other pieces of legislation in Europe and elsewhere as well. So both the thinking part, which is bringing the data together and the doing part, which is then using that data to actually try to affect change.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Sure. So the new Standard Institute, we call ourselves a think and do tank. So we collect data and information and the stories of the people and the places impacted by the fashion industry and really try to translate that information for regular citizens, for the brands themselves to understand the impact and then to do something about that. for so long the challenge was sustainability quote unquote in the fashion industry it was that it was really a narrative that was built by the marketers within the brands themselves so they were really dictating the terms of what impact reduction meant that proved to of course be unsuccessful and so we're really there to fill in the gap get a clear picture of actually what's happening on the ground and then the due part is you know moving either citizens to you know to try to change the way they're”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This problem, there is so much more media attention, there still needs to be more, but there's much more from where we were so that now we are at a place where folks who are listening and organizations who are working on this can begin to present legislative proposals that can really start to address this. So I think we're at a better trajectory certainly than we were before, but have we been able to make measurable gains? We're not there yet.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's hard to tell a positive story, you know, in terms of the results that we've seen. You know, immediately after Rana Plaza in Bangladesh there was reform of the safety of the structures that was limited to Bangladesh, that was limited to the safety of the structures themselves, and there was enough political will out of the Rana Plaza disaster for it was an organization called the Accord that was formed that really did help improve building structures within the cut-and-so space within Bangladesh. But beyond those somewhat limited wins, we have not seen measurable progress. Where we are, though, today, which is progress, is that we've seen a whole awakening, a whole movement. You know, I run the new standard institute, but there are other organizations out there like fashion revolution that are really opening people's eyes.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Work harder, don't make a mistake. And doing that for 10, 12, 14 hours a day, that is just inhumane on the most basic fundamental level beyond, you know, the fact that they're not receiving even the legal minimum wage for their work and, you know, live in really tough conditions, just that inhumanity that we're putting on people all just to turn a profit. And have we seen anything change? I mean, we had obviously the Rana Plaza disaster nearly a decade ago now, and we had this conversation then about the conditions people were being made.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Hard to pick the most agreed. I think there was sex trafficking, which is not an uncommon thing to see in this sector just because the sector tends to reach the most exploited workers. So, you know, that is demonstrably egregious. I think beyond that, the mechanized labor is really, you know, if you're highlighting the most egregious behavior, the mechanized labor where we are treating humans as machines and industrial engineering them so that every second of their working lives is monitored and maximized for output. And speaking to the humans that are actually running those production lines and asking them, what are they thinking about? And they don't even have time to think. You know, it's just about keep your head down, work harder, don't make a mistake.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Construction is actually the cut and sew, which is the last stage before becoming clothing. But before that, you've had to create the fibers somehow, either on a farm or through an oil rig in a chemical plant. You've had to spin, weave, knit, dye that fiber in to become a fabric. And then your final component is you're cut and sew. And so that's really what that is indicating rather than the complete life cycle of the garment. And in terms of the working conditions that people are enduring, you have a chapter called My Factory is a cage. That probably tells us rather a lot, what are the most egregious things that you found during your investigation?”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“What materials they're wearing. They don't know that polyester is actually plastic. And that's kind of the primary material in our product these days. They certainly don't know that, you know, in a label it has one country of origin, but it is most likely that that product has gone around the world maybe more than once before it's even landed in your closet. So yes, I think we're much less familiar. We don't have textile mills anywhere near us to actually even know kind of the process where we still are at least a bit familiar with what a farm looks like. You mentioned the sort of origin where clothes have come from. People might take comfort in seeing, say, a made in Italy label. What does that actually mean though in terms of where that garment and the textiles involved have come from? Yeah, so it doesn't say anything with a textile has come from. It's the construction.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“These behaviors kind of on an individual shopping basis, but more importantly, and as other industries have done, change the laws so that this isn't about pitting people sort of short-term. You know, they have a quick dopamine hit to make them happy versus a garment worker or the climate crisis. So I think that's really, you know, our jobs as communicators is to share this information, to get the stories out there, to get enough people to become invested in this subject, which people are. It's definitely a growing movement to be able to, you know, move to legislation and getting these policies changed. People often talk about how detached we are from what we eat. Are we even more detached from the processes involved in making what we wear? Oh, yes, absolutely. People don't know.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I wanted to ask is we hear a lot about the problems, probably not enough, but we do hear quite a lot about the problems of the global fashion industry. But somehow we sort of squish it out of our mind when we are in the shops and buying clothes. How do you make people care about these issues? Yeah, so I think that, you know, in the past decade, in the same way that you saw kind of maybe in the previous decade, more people interested knowing about where their food come from, we're seeing the same thing in the fashion industry. So it takes podcasts like this and news articles and books and documentaries just to get the message out. You know, I don't think it's something that people want to think about every day, all the time whenever they're making a purchase, but that it begins to, you know, seep into people's knowledge that we can both change.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Today we're talking about fashion, and in the middle of the climate crisis asking, what's the real price we're all paying for the global clothing industry? It's estimated that the business of fashion contributes to around ten percent of all global emissions, coupled that with worker exploitation and poor labour practices, and those impulses buys we pick up on a whim start to feel a little less like a feel good bargain. Maxim Badat is looking to change that. A former lawyer she later moved on to become an entrepreneur in the fashion industry, which has led her to advocate for much needed change in the sector. She's the founder of the new Standard Institute, a not for profit dedicated to exposing greenwashing and malpractice in fashion. She's written a book about it all, unraveled The Life and Death of a Garment, and she joins me to talk about it today. Welcome to Intelligence Squared, Maxine. Thank you so much for having me. The first question.”
2022-11-16 · Intelligence Squared · The Life and Death of a Garment, with Maxine Bédat · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT