YouSaid · the spoken record

Michael Milken

lines on the record: 90
first: 2024-02-26
most recent: 2024-02-26
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“If you're on a mission, if you stand for something a lot of people will join you. You try very hard not to hire a person that's going to be a mercenary that's in it for the money. Now, we probably finance 3,000 different companies. I only had one CEO ever tell me he was in it for the money. Now many of them might have thought that, but if they told me they would have thought, well, maybe I wouldn't have financed him. And I think when you look at the people that have built industries, build companies, It was passion.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So they've had a sixty percent reduction in the number of children born. And if this continued in the future, they would lose four to six hundred million people. So you could look at Japan where two people die for everyone that's born and you can buy in rural areas today entire towns for $250,000 because the people are gone and the young people want to live in the cities. If you're building all this real estate and your population is going down every year, eventually you're going to need less real estate. So when do you see that trend? But that started a decade ago. It didn't start two years ago.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“technology today has so dramatically changed the future that those that are using regression analysis really are not the best performing managers today and I find today that many many people are still thinking the future is going to be like the past the dramatic changes in demographics I don't think investors have really focused on so over the last few years you've had significant weakness in Chinese real estate markets now when should you have started to figure this out first the government was feeling the growth of the GDP by funding real estate but second they've gone from having twenty three to twenty five million children born a year To less than 10.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“and how to build capital structure. What is credit? Not to be influenced by extraneous things that aren't real. Not live by regression analysis. When you go to school and graduate school a lot of times, you learn regression analysis. What is regression analysis? It tells you the future is going to be like the past.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“kids, etc. You can see maybe what type of person there are. And the other thing I wanted to do was make sure a person really wanted this as a career, that they really wanted to serve their clients, to finance industry's businesses, and were willing to make sacrifices of time and things if need be to do that. Not everyone really wants it. They might want it, but they really aren't going to be there at four or five in the morning. So I often when I interviewed people would tell them to meet me at four in the morning or 4.30 in the morning just to see whether they really wanted it. And I think each of those individuals and thousands of others, I think there's 72 private equity firms now headed by people that work with me. We gave them a PhD in finance. Okay, so they got their PhD.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We can't afford to have them as a trader. I used to like to drive with people. I often would schedule to go someplace with a person we were interviewing and we drive together and I would wait so it was so late you could never get there in time if you went in a straight line and I wanted to see till they just get on the road and stay on the road or are they trying to find alternative routes to get from point A to point B faster and so generally I did not hire anyone that drove in a straight line and did not change routes or did not drop out of hands when they had no chance of winning. And then I wanted to meet their family. I don't even know if you're allowed to do that today in hiring people, but a lot of times people can present themselves as someone when you're interviewing them. But if you can go out with their family, go to dinner, meet them.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so the key, I think, is people, and it's the same on a football team and a basketball team. It's easy to see on a basketball court. I grew up in LA, went to graduate school in Philadelphia, of course, learned to hate the Celtics at a very young age. Philadelphia had maybe more talent, and Lakers had more talent, but Boston always won, and they worked as a team. So in looking for people, you want to find people that want to play as a team. You also want to find people that know when they have a losing hand and drop out. So one of the things I like to do was play cards late at night with people before we hired them when they were tired. And then you would egg them on, you know, I heard you're the greatest trader. Why are you dropping out of his hands? Then gosh.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So we're talking sixty to seventy times the GDP of the country. And Steve Jobs often wrote early in his career. It's not the capital you have, and it's not the amount of money you're spending on research. It's the people you have and how you lead them. And IBM was out spending him 50 to 1 at one point.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is the importance of your managers, your leaders in businesses, people looking at the numbers often don't understand by far the most valuable asset, and that is the human capital. In nineteen sixty five, after the Watts riots, I wrote down this formula essentially that prosperity is financial technology thousands of different types of financial instruments serve as a multiplier effect on the world's largest asset human capital, the world's second largest asset, social capital, and then what you find in a balance sheet, real assets. And the human capital in the United States, if it had to be measured, I would say would be around $1,500 trillion.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I had a number of things I did, but I would stress to you we had a mission. You felt like you were creating jobs. You were building industries. I remember not one person believed in sellier, mobile, not one. It's hard for someone in 2024 to believe that. But if we're talking early 1980s, John Clugy, who we finance believed in, and Craig McCall believed in it. And many people like Craig I did not have a relationship, but after he knocked on every door and someone told him they would not loan money against Mobile, I mentioned to him Why are you going to a veterinarian if you need brain surgery here? And so I would say to you the mission of financing businesses of the future, of creating opportunities, of identifying people with talent, and giving them capital. Which dramatically misunderstood.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So alongside of the innovation and financial technology started long ago, your time at Drexel had a group of people working with you that have become by a large amount the leaders in this space today. And if I just run off the founders of Apollo, Aries, Blackstone, Canyon, Crescent, Molus, Richard Handler, CEO, Jeffreys, David Solomon, Goldman Sachs, I'd love to hear your perspective on talent. How did you think about assessing talent?”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“credit markets where you have strong credits or weak credits where you're borrowing from another credit. In the seventy four period fifty years ago, when they put on credit controls and you couldn't loan money to a company you didn't currently loan it to because of the oil shock and because of inflation, you often found suppliers that were good credits, loaning money to the buyer to finance their purchase. You found end users, customers, loaning money to the manufacturers to manufacture the product, the securitization of credit has allowed millions and hundreds of millions of homeowners throughout the world to buy a home. Tens of millions of owners of cars to buy a car versus an individual loan. And so computers have helped and the technology has helped to do this, but it's allowed people to borrow longer and borrow at lower rates.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“This is extended to the securitization of, for example, royalty streams, franchise fees, etc. Companies and organizations have been able to borrow substantially lower. If you look at one of the greatest purchases in sports, the Los Angeles Jodgers, for example, they were able to secure the media stream from an investment grade company, in that case it was Time Warner Cable Today Charter. For the next thirty years that paid, whether you played baseball or didn't. And so they were able to discount the cash flow from the media stream, from an investment grade credit, and the present value of that exceeded what they paid for the baseball team. So you got the baseball team for close to nothing, but it is this securitization.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“and have exceeded higher rated debt and often equity rates of return. So whether it's private credit, whether it's public credit, whether it's term loans today, you have thousands and thousands of institutions that can make their own credit decisions as to who to invest in. And I would say that hasn't changed. The original work we did on securitization of companies' debt it then went to mortgages where I would take thousand mortgages or 100,000 mortgages and securitize them. But that's gone farther than I had planned, whether it's accounts receivable, financing, whether it's letters of credit. Today the idea that you can spread risk by having numerous investments that look similar as car loans have or credit card loans.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'd say first many people try to separate this, but to me there's no difference between private credit, public credit, term loans, et cetera. 99.5 or something of all the companies in the world are non-investment grade debt companies. Very few are investment grade, and therefore you can imagine my excitement when everyone is focused on 500 companies and I have 10 million to figure out what to do. For the rating agencies, the past is always AAA and the future always has risk. You tend to rate older companies higher. We study that in credit. So what I see is really the evolution of the results over a very long period of time here. Going back particularly to the work that I had done in the sixties, so we're sixty years later now. The rates of return have been significant.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“As you look forward to today, so much of the private equity market and increasingly private credit is fueled by those same initiatives you started decades ago. I'd love to get your perspective where you see those types of innovations and where you see just an extrapolation of what you started long ago.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“for inflation, you lost ninety percent of your money in the next decade. And this led to the growth of money management, fidelity, and all the other money managers where people said, well, gosh, if I'm losing money, would trust banks and it's not safe, I need to find other alternatives. And this caused an explosion in equity mutual funds, debt mutual funds, high yield, convertible, securities, et cetera. And so, yes, you could be right on your research, but it takes these events to occur for people not necessarily to believe and invest with you, but to understand what you told them before it happened when happened. You don't get any. So I'd say that led the basis and then in the late seventies we began the initial issuance of non investment grade debt for both public companies and private companies.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The two of us probably were the only ones in the room in 74 and 77, and he hadn't stated that he predicted 700 to get four right. So this period of time changed the views. And the other dramatic thing that changed was something called the nifty 50. And this is that you could buy 50 stocks. They were so great that you never had to sell them. You could hold them forever. And the average PE ratio was sixty six times of these gray companies, and many of them were great like Disney and Walmart, but many of them were Polaroid and Kodak and others. The basis of bank trust investing was buying this nifty fifty. So you would never be fired if you lost money in IBM. If you made another investment, you could have been irresponsible.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That you told what they should be doing in January, February, or March of'74 that didn't do it, you now had the credibility. Okay, I didn't double my money, I didn't make investments. I was on a panel in nineteen seventy four at the Institutional Investor Conference with a professor that's very famous today and has ratios that are famous today. And he predicted 700 of the 2,000 largest companies in America were going to go bankrupt, including states like New York and cities like New York City. And I said, based on history, which I had studied for 200 years, including depression, that was not going to happen. We were on a panel together in 77, and he pointed out that he had predicted the four major bankruptcies that had occurred between 74 and 70.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So if you created a portfolio of dozens or hundreds of securities in a marketplace, you were not necessarily dependent on any one credit and that became things like CLOs today. And we've securitized credit cards and auto loans, etc. So those five goals I had set out in nineteen seventy and all five of them have been achieved by myself and thousands of others to the marketplace. And I would say you really needed dramatic events to occur. A lot of people when I made presentations would say, that's great, but that wasn't going to convince them. And so at the end of 74, if you bought a portfolio of non-investment great debt, by the end of 76 you made one hundred percent on your money unleveraged.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Quite often the utility curve of the CEO did not overlap with the utility curve of shareholders or even their own employees. And as a result you had this movement that began in the nineteen seventies and private equity a continuous today that has lengthened them. So that was another. My last goal was diversification.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Came out and it was widespread, and you had whistleblowers relating to smoking in health, and therefore it was not perceived by the marketplace or investors anymore as a company that was providing value to the markets. And so the second area was how are you going to finance? Your third was essentially to create a trading market so that you can buy and sell securities. So you're willingness in your career to buy something at Yale might have been based on the liquidity of that investment. Often when you make an investment, you think what's your exit? So you had to be a market maker, and we eventually made markets in 7,000 different securities. Next, the alignment of management employees and shareholders, I would say to you in the 1960s and 70s.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You really don't learn in school. One is regulation because you can put regulations into effect that put any company out of business in any industry out of business. You saw what China has done with their education industry by essentially putting it out of business in the last two to three years which was a major industry in China and lastly society. Does society think what you're doing is a value for society or not a value for society? In the late nineteen thirties there was work published telling there was a link between smoking and your health and smoking could give you cancer. But by 86 was still the most valuable brand in America and in 89 at one point Philip Morris now of Tria was the most valuable company in the world. But shortly thereafter”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But I decided to go to Wall Street because this is where you allocated capital, and so I had set out five goals one the democratization of capital, so ten banks couldn't decide whether you could have a business or grow it, but thousands of potential investors, so you had to provide education, knowledge, data to get thousands of investors involved in it. Two, you had to have the right capital structure, and depending on the industry, the firm, the people, I created this six elements of capital structure, one, understanding the management, two, the industry, three, the economy, four capital markets. Those are which you study in business school, and you learn the best time to finance is when you don't need money and the worst time to finance is when you need money. And lastly, the two that you”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Berkeley, I'd done my credit work and at Wharton I had done my capital structure work. So I had set out with really five missions when I went full time. And I remember writing this letter that other people that were, quote, validatorians of their business school class, that many others had chosen different routes, consulting, government, etc.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So you famously brought this interaction with this one individual who didn't have access to credit into really the genesis of the high yield markets. I'd love to hear how you were able to do that from scratch.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so my view as the foundation of the firm was research and we needed to invert the pyramid, where research is the foundation of financial investing and advising, then trading, and then if you can trade it and buy it, you can work on selling it. And so Drexel served as a primarily equity is at that time, and shortly thereafter I became the head of fixed income research and then the head of all fixed income atrixo.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“If you had paved in Portland, Oregon, you had to get it from New York to Portland, Oregon, and quite often you might have something called DK they didn't know it to go all the way back to New York, etc. And so eventually the interest expense was exceeding the revenue for firms, and so my agreement with Rexel is I would help solve the delivery problem for them and others with my operations research and information systems background, and I would be able to go over my research with them. At that time, the firm was the leading research firm headed by Paul Miller and Clay Anderson and J. Sherid. And so I felt that the fundamental basis of investing was research. And in the 60s, you had fixed commissions. So if you wanted to buy a million dollars worth of stock, you paid 1% and the highest paid individuals were salespeople.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“When I first started talking to my professors and showing them that what they were saying might be incorrect was based on data, not what people thought, and I made the decision to go to Wharton for graduate school primarily because I had the luxury at Wharton you could wave courses based on experience, and so I was able to take three majors at Wharton. One was finance, one was operations research, and one was information systems. Shortly after arriving at Wharton, I started working Fort Drexel as a consultant, one of my professors suggested that I might be able to help the firm. At that time in the late nineteen sixties, investment bankings, brokerage firms were under severe financial trouble because of the physical delivery of a certificate. So he actually had to.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So as a student, figuring out this original research, you could cry from the rooftops, but I imagine people still looked at you as a student. And I'm curious what you did with that to get to where you got to at Drexel.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“everyone said about credit was wrong and there was a book by Bradford Hitman on long term corporate bond and investor experience and The Riskiest credits were perceived as the best and the best credits were perceived as the worst. Whether you were the head of the Federal Reserve or whether you were Secretary of the Treasury or a major money manager what you were saying was based on incorrect evidence and this book which covered every single bond issued from nineteen hundred to nineteen forty four through the Depression clearly showed that the risk premium was greater than the risk and even during the Depression so you can imagine what it's like during good economic times or non depressed economic times. It was self discovery and that passion has carried me today almost. Years later.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, the fact that this individual felt he couldn't borrow money because of the color of his skin was obviously very irrational to me. Gary Becker, who became a very close friend and eventually won a Nobel Prize based on human capital in nineteen ninety two, many years later, had written this piece in the nineteen sixties on why irrational behavior could be rational as to how people view the world, and so I started studying credit and as a sophomore discovered that”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But shortly after I arrived at Berkeley there was the free speech movement in November of 1964 so long ago. But my career changed and my interest in undergrad changed with the Watts riots that occurred on august eleventh, nineteen sixty five in Los Angeles and my opportunity to meet a young African American man who had watched the building, he worked in burned down. He was married, had a child, had no savings, and now had no job, and he told me that he would never have access to capital or money to go into business because of the color of his skin. His father never did, and he saw that business as someone else's business, not his business. So I decided to go change my major at Berkeley to finance. It didn't make any sense to me that we weren't loaning money to people based on their ability.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“As a high school student, I had many activities like all the others, many other kids, athletics, etc, but was very advanced in math at a very young age. I had written a letter to the president when I was eleven years old after Sputnik went up to run the space program. My qualifications never missing a math or science program at that time. I really never got a return call. But I would say I went to Berkeley with the idea that maybe someday I'd run the space program and the most Nobel Prize winners in science, started out with math or physics courses, etc.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“opinions based on facts that were not accurate. And so my conclusion was if we could do research and understand facts, we'd have a real opportunity to change things by presenting those facts.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'm not sure, but I was always the student why. In elementary school I was always the one that had his hand up asking why. Why is that true? A lot of times you find in education that your teachers aren't necessarily current on facts. And so you can surprise them. And, you know, at a very young age, I had concluded that adults had strong opinions, but very few of them ever did research, and if he asked him where did you hear that, they would tell you someone else told him and then someone else, but you couldn't find anyone that actually did research. And that's one of the reasons why rumors start or misinformation occurs. And so I use these evenings. Yes, I discovered very early that not every adult could tell me every state or every capital, the highest mountain, but what I discovered is they had a lot of”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so my parents had these bridge parties once a month at their house and other people's house. And I so look forward to them because in bridge one player sits out every hand and it gives me a chance to quiz that adult, ask the adult what they believe in, etc. And for a while I got to stay up starting about eight and got to ask questions of the adults they came over. There were twenty four adults or 28 adults and it was a great opportunity not to share my knowledge but to see what they believed and what they knew.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think knowledge captured my attention a great deal. Acts, my favorite book was the almanac. It gave you all this data and it came once a year and I used to put it under my pillow at night so after I was supposed to be at sleep I'd often would bring it out with a flashlight and read it and then when you got two almanacs you could look at the changes from year to year and I didn't know that that was the first derivative when I was young six or seven or eight and then later if you got more almanacs you could look at it over time and that was the second derivative that you learned about when I was a little older but I was fascinated about why people had strong opinions and at my dinner table in my family we constantly discussed issues and you had at a very young age be able to back them up with facts”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Goldman Sachs, Jeffreys, Leonard Green, and Mollis. Our conversation begins with Mike's childhood and his early interest in democratizing access to capital. We discuss his career goals, the importance of capital structure, and his perspectives on markets today. We then turn to Mike's long history of philanthropic work to improve education and advance medical research, as described in his book, Faster Cures, Accelerating the Future of Health. I should note that we do not discuss Mike's legal controversy post-Drexel or his pardon in 2020. However, next week, Mike's longtime personal attorney, Richard Sandler, will join me to discuss just that.”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My guest on today's show is Michael Milken, legendary financier and philanthropist. Mike is best known for his role in creating the high-yield bond market in the nineteen seventies and eighties at Drexelburnham Lambert. His plea in a controversial prosecution, and his remarkable philanthropic efforts over fifty years supporting medical research, education, and public health. Under Mike's leadership, Upstart Drexel became the most successful securities firm on Wall Street, enabled capital to become available for the 99% of companies that could not previously access the public markets and turned into the greatest breeding ground for talent in the industry. Approximately 70 investment firms are headed by leaders who worked for Mike, including founders and leaders at Apollo, Aries, Blackstone, Canyon, Cerberus, Crescent, Golden Tree,”
2024-02-26 · Capital Allocators · Michael Milken – Innovations in Finance, Medicine, and Education (EP.371) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source