YouSaid · the spoken record

Mick Whelan

lines on the record: 56
first: 2024-09-19
most recent: 2024-09-19
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“No, you just, when I go home, I'm just dad, and when I'm out and about, most people don't recognise you. And the ones that do tend to recognise you tend to want to have a go about something. You don't do this for a legacy. You don't think about when you're doing it. I've got a very simple mantra. You only face a challenge that come in front of you during a period of time that you're there. And someone else will talk about it later on.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Actually, my son's currently 39, 36 and 29, so I think they've very much developed their own paths. They all had the opportunity education. They all had the opportunity to go to university. They wanted to. Some took it, some didn't. All of them are doing what they want to do. They're all in different roles and different spheres and they're all quite happy and they're all working.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I mean, you never forget it as a child, and I've also seen other tragedies on about the railway and they live with you too. Also, one of the things I did do when I first became General Secretary was I went to see the chief coroner. The biggest problem we had was you normally don't have the inquest for about 18 months afterwards and actually reliving it is the worst moment. Actually, and the first when I went, I went St. Pancras back then and they put me in a room with a family. There I was in full railway uniform sitting there on my driver's badge with the family and that shouldn't happen. Yeah, not for them and not for us. So we changed, we modernised, to use a better term. So we now have an agreement unless there's any dubiety about what happened, where and when, train drivers don't have to attend.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was a young train driver and I remember whether it was a Sunday between Camden and Caledonian Road and I hit a scaffold and it's old-fashioned third rail where you get the juice not from the overheads but from the floor so back then the rules were you stopped the train you communicate with the guard and then you walk back to each other along the same side so whoever came across what calls it first and when we got about halfway down the train there was a young child shaking also being electrocute by the third rail We did what we had to do, we called emergency services, whatever. Unfortunately, the child died hospital. Our young children at the time, you can't forget it, you don't forget it. And then I became a full-time officer later on, and I did many inquests, many fatalities, and I saw some trained drivers who never drove again, some who just got back on the horse and rode it, and some were affected by it. What it did do, it made me sure that we now have proper counselling in place. We now have processing in place where you just don't go back out there the next day.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There is. I love the romance of railways. I'm very much in that field of dreams place if you build it, they will come. We've seen from the Elizabeth line that we saw all the controversy over the overrunning and the costs and whatever else. The day opened up 140,000 more people than expected used it. Now that wasn't rubberneckers. That's continued. Four million people have used it so far this year. It's going to pay for itself in five years. We'll have that asset for five, six, seven more generations or more if we look after it. We are a little island 750 miles long, 64 million people on it. Tell me how we deliver keyotso Paris or the 1% without mass transit and mass freight on railway and better integrated thinking. If what we're going to do with build more roads and I do believe in integrated transport, I just like the idea of long riots going into Darrentry and Hamstall as they do now and shorter electronic lorry journeys that keep those jobs in place.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Not going to talk about Ten Hag and his colleagues in a moment. I started going to Chelsea when I went to the oratories. We overlooked the ground and I went for 30 years before we won anything. And then with that great period of time when the Russian billionaire came in and we won a couple of European trophies and a few leagues and three doubles, whatever, when Man United weren't doing so well.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Financial range better because you've got control of revenue, they're no longer in control of revenue. Also then, there was a £7 billion cost of access charges. £3.5 billion of that was paid for by the government. So you were now to make a profit, we're actually not even covering your core costs and having hedged all your bets. Now, since COVID, nobody buys a season ticket. So the Treasury and the DFT have taken on the revenue, so you don't only buy as a monthly, a weekly, or whatever. So it's changed. So the reason for the subsidy is changing is the change in the model.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, that's because we've kept the private motif within there. So let's have a look at a Ponzi scheme that was privatisation. If you can just bear with me for a second. So if you bid for a franchise and you were lucky enough to win it, you made yourself the first creditor, so the 5 or 7 million that you used to bid for, you got back immediately. The second thing you did was put a bond on the season tickets. So you had all the season ticket revenue in advance. So most people got their season tickets to January through to December. You hedged all your wage costs, your fuel bills, whatever against the season ticket bond because you had the money in place.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, we're back to normal football Monday to Friday. The trouble is that football hasn't quite returned to the levels it was on the Monday, Friday, but it's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. We've seen an increase.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“He was very kind, and John Major spoke to me for a couple of minutes. Also, to make the point, Maggie Thatcher did say that rail privatisation was a privatisation too far. And it was a quick conversation. We did undertake to meet again, which we haven't done. But he actually believed that the three tenants that he put in there were going to happen, and they didn't. He believed that privatisation would drive competition. As you know, from the ticket instruction, whatever, there was never any competition in our railways. You couldn't use a virgin ticket on any other operator. He said he believed that it would drive investment. There's been zero private investment in the last 23 years. It's the governor who pays for the trains. The government pays for the infrastructure, and none of these companies have any assets. And the third thing he believed was drive innovation. And if you actually look at all the consultations over the last two and a half decades, because we answered them as well, in many cases where there was a threat to the fare box or whatever else, it was the companies themselves that were against any future change, against the modernization that you are craving for.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, something to do because there's no agreement for it. Now, let me explain that. I didn't privatise railways. I spent the last 23 years trying to turn that round. At privatisation, tax inspectors were train drivers who then looked at the common scene, the fitness of train drivers. They decided to call the managers so they couldn't be an ASDF and they had to go into another trade union. That trade union negotiates what they do. And what they do is a clerical function. They do the compensatory acceptance, whatever. And we have agreements at every company, by the way, because we're not that Luddite, that they can obviously drive a train to keep their own competency, otherwise how can they assess us. They can drive a train in any real emergency. That's not cancellation of a train up, but that is a broken rail, a terrorist attack. All hands to pump situation. And if they are assessing somebody who's new and they're not up to it for the safety of the passenger train, they can take over. So there are times where it is agreed they can do. What this was was them smashing every agreement we got to allow other people to make money.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, they're not because they were losing because of that very thing. They were losing more trains than they gained by doing it because none of our train drivers would actually work any overtime or any of their days off. So they far more cancellations because of breaking. What they were doing was they said.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But also, Nico, at that point, you also get economies of scale. You don't get this thing where a virgin driver can't drive a central trains train or, you know, under BR, when I was a train driver, I could go to any depot within three hours where the shortfall if I had the knowledge and cover any train that they had. On the day that they privatised the railway, I was sectorised into rail freight distribution, which the freight depot, and I saw the trains that I used to cover standing there because they didn't have the resources.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“As part of that process, then, when you chewy the 14 companies that have got different terms, conditions that are allied to the patterns, the timetables that they run in, you'll have to standardize. Just to be clear to people.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well depends, is she talking specifically about us or about the whole railway itself? So we're now in a transitional period where the third reading of the bill to actually allow UK government to run its own trains has just gone through, and then the next bill will be the one to create GBR which will nationalise the railway and create 30 and created public safe railway.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was a train dri We're a unique trade union, a craft trade union. There's no one in our trade union elect to any position that hasn't actually done the job. So I've been a train driver.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So could you give me an example? And he said, Well, you demand time to walk from one end of a train to another. So we don't demand it. They build it in so you know what time a train can leave.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Let me explain. So we are the most equipped in the bank or time and motion people in the world. From the moment you start to the moment you undertake any activity, there has to be a time allowance. So from you booking on being seen to book on safely in the right place from the moment you then walk from there to where you're picking up your train, the amount of time it takes you to set that train up, the amount of time it takes you to get to the other end of the train to set it up to leave to make sure it's all fit for purpose. There has to be an allowance. So you know what time that train is going to leave in the timetable. So everything we do, right, isn't an agreement by us that we have to have it. It has to happen for the activities we actually undertake to work to allow a timetable to be composed. I remember the first time that a group was went to see Philip Hammond and he said, I've heard about your Spanish practices. And I said, well, what Spanish practices, Minister?”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I can't believe that's true because they've had several reorganisations of network rail where they've then put in the people they want and most of the stuff like that I believe is subcontracted and not done in-house so I can't believe that's true.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No. What they're meant to do is say hello to anybody you want, what they're not meant to do is ask you for a report or ask you to do any other duty. So for those of you who don't quite know how railway brakes work, you could be 10 and a half hours on duty, do five and a half hours in the seat without a break, which is... Problem in itself have obeyed twenty minutes, then go back, do more trains there 20 minutes later on. If someone's coming to you in that 20 minutes, by the time you've had your fiscal deeds and possibly had something to eat, if they come to you for any other purpose, it's their agreement because your focus shouldn't be impacted by the way that the breaks should start again.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I made my researchers go back for all our agreements whether I can't find an agreement our head obviously says that I don't know of anybody would agree that anywhere or anybody would ask for it”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I saw a list of examples in one of the right wing papers the other day that you may well quote from, and I would love to do away with these urban myths.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I believe so, but I also believe the other people that you've just named believe should have higher ways as well. I don't believe that £30,000 a year is a living wage in this country. It definitely is a living wage in London, the high cost of living, the prices that have gone through the roof prospects it, the cost of renting or getting a mortgage, so many people that are in work and in work poverty because work doesn't pay. Surely the argument should be reversed, why aren't other people getting what they need to live upon?”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I do love a free marketeer that doesn't believe in the free market. And I've said this to various Tory ministers as well. So, you know, you believe in a free market for labour, you privatise the industry, the tenants that privatisation were about driving competition in various areas. And what they drove was the competition in the pay market. You create all these companies that didn't have the resource and then trade drivers became a very precious commodity, supply and demarket in.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Isn't our job to be successful? So we no longer applaud success in the UK. What we want is a race to the bottom and create the politics of envy. I found it incredibly odd. So we have a week where the government declares they'll lift the cap on bankers' bonuses yet, but anybody else in the, and we weren't in the public sector, by the way, which made this most ironic, has to have a pay cut because the state of the economy, we can change the pension system when we have the lowest pensions in Europe for people who retire after working all their lives, but for millionaires will make it better for them. I see a disconnect. I see something wrong in our politics when that happens.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Honestly, I mean, look, we want to be in a room and we want to say this is what we think. We want to listen to what the problems are and the issues are. And there'll be times when we'll be applauding incredibly supportive as something Labor does and there'll be other times where as traditionally we'll be firm but Creakle Friends.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, I could actually show them the deal that the company signed where they agreed never to do this again. And we resolved the dispute where there was no political involvement and nobody else involved. But there again, they might not be interested in”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Now, what we had was when you go into dispute for as long as we were, there are some bad actors and there are some incredibly bad actors. And there was two companies that we had outstanding disputes in for other reasons. And one of those companies was where they were paying other people to drive trains on non-strike days for £500 a day. But also what that was doing was smashing every agreement we had.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I think political discourse in the last 15 years post-Brexit and Trump changed in many ways, and I think the way in which it changed was it became seen as seeding dishonourable and less fact-based. And when you've got somebody now telling you the truth, is that now a revelation? And do we attack them for telling the truth? Or do we say, well, what do we do about that truth?”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I agree though. There'll be priorities. And I do believe it is for the government to dictate those priorities, whatever else. And the debate of what those priorities are, the pressure will come from the various trade unions, the various sectors for their priorities and what they want.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Doesn't that come back to my original thing about me being argument, Steven, whatever else? Look, and being discontent, you always want more, you always want better.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There's always a danger if you run on a platform that we did of this 14 million people in poverty, 1 million people in destitution, anything that's seen to make that worse quite naturally. But I do understand the fledgling government saying, well, hold on, we're six weeks in. Give us a chance. Right, we commit to do all these things in our manifesto. We've had to pull the $28 billion for green projects because of the whole that was there because we'd end up with another trust weekend. We don't want to do this.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Fundamentally, but also he's running on a platform of competence. We have had the most, in my view, economically illiterate government for a decade and a half that we've ever seen. I don't understand the fourteen years of austerity and the running down of the country and its infrastructure, its services. I don't understand how we became the highest boring government of all time outside of COVID. If you discounted COVID, if you are I did every parliament in history together, we the Tories borrowed more money than anybody else. Where did it go? What did we spend it on? What did we get for it?”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, look, it was once a lifetime moment. The opportunity didn't happen in twenty seventeen again within two thousand votes of running the country. I still look at some of the rhetoric use against Jeremy and some the way that the establishment turned upon him and said, do think what were they scared of? Because at the end of the day, Parliament works a way in which Parliament does, tied by its rigours, and tied by the constraints of the economy”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was back in the day. I mean, look, young, angry, inarticulate gets in those rooms in Mallet Street with a socialist alliance and others, all arguing that we wanted to change the world and do the same things, then arguing about what mantra we were going to use to do it. And as you know yourself, that becomes a credit. And I imagine that happened in your university and the rooms that you were in as well.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's right. I mean, at the time, I think my uncle was living with my uncle as an electrician. Electricians were quite well paid. But they all had this aspiration. Nobody went on the site because it wasn't safe. It was a different world. We are talking about the 70s where, you know, there was very little legislation, very little protections. And my dad actually, when he had his accident, received no conversation at all because there was no employees' liability insurance, there was nothing went with it. And that also fuels into your ambition then about that shouldn't happen and it can't happen to other people.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I didn't mean a gap year and I didn't mean whatever else and my mother being Irish said, look, if you're not going to school, you're going to work. Back then, there were only four banks. Barclays, Lloyds, Middle and that West. So I applied for all four, turned up at Barclays, and Had this interview, and the most interesting interview I've ever had, he said, Do you play rugby? I said, Yes. He said, Will you play rugby for the bank? I said, yes. He said, you've got the job. I think it was a slightly different world back then. And I entered into a world which I'm not quite sure I enjoyed, but then they sent me away and allowed me to do my education on day release. But it was very much a dead person's shoes industry at the time. And after four or five years, I'd had enough.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Unfortunately, Dad had fell off a scaffold and broke his back. I went to my mum and said, I'll take a year out. I'll be quite honest, I didn't actually know where year out was. It was a phrase that I'd heard.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It does, and also other people. I always thought about bringing everybody up and not leaving anybody behind. And, you know, it isn't just about... How you move on is how you bring future generations”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I don't think there's something in there that makes you. Seeing justice, and you want to articulate about it, that gives you that fire or that ambition.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And both lived in the same sink estate for a period of time. I'm a bit older than he is, though. I won't say how much older.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Very much so. I mean, there is a cultural aspect and a social aspect to everything that you do. So, yeah, a lot of it. The idea of fighting Irish. Fighting Irish isn't always about fiscal battles. I look around the movement, I've seen everybody from Billy Hayes to Bob Crowe to Francis Grady to Joe Grady now, Mick Lynch, whatever. There is a big thread through the trade union movement of people of Irish heritage.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Fighting about because when we went to primary school, I went to the infant school, I went to, it was very mixed, you know, and I've seen the area which I grew up on was on Kilman borders. There was the Irish Dysporer, then you see the other groups coming after you and you all move further and further out. But also then we saw that period in the 80s of social engineering because Dame Shirley and also the West West. Houses for votes, allegedly. But also, you know Is this thing about when trade union leaders get together, we sit in the room and outpour each other? Well, there's four of us in one bedroom. And I went for that period of time. As you said, we weren't risked, but there was my mum, dad, myself, my sister in a one-bedroom flat for a period of time until we got a bigger council house and things moved on.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“No, not back then, you know. And my parents came home in the very late 50s, so it was there very much the year of no blacks, no dogs, no Irish. And that sort of funded into the thinking and the house discussions in the house.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So I went to a primary school over the half-me steps just near Grenfell, Catholic primary. My parents are Irish immigrants. And they took me into a room one day with three or four others and said, sit this test. So I answered these questions and then was given, someone was given the opportunity to go Carnival grammar school at the time and some was given the opportunity to go to the oratory. The oratory was very, very good for me, but it was the first time I knew I was poor.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, I mean, they always had this thing about what was right and wrong. And there was always a discussion going on in the house. And there was always people in the house. There was always books in the house. There was always that my dad had a very simple mantra. He says, I don't care what you do in life as long as you chose to do it. So he was massive on education. He said, look, you can be anything you want as long as you choose to be that as long as you're not forced to be that. That's the only thing that would disappoint me. And I tried to carry that with my kids.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was quite shy when I was younger, but my dad had a real thing about education and a real thing about being able to articulate. And my wife is the same. She sent all the kids to acting, not because she wanted to be activist, but she wanted to be able to have self-confidence. And it was always about standing up for yourself. I was never the biggest kid in the room, never whatever else. But my dad was incredibly well read, strange enough, part of the socialist worker party, very, very left-wing, far more left-wing lips am I.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, because that's what I'm best at. And it was in the context of a speech, a six-minute speech was slightly longer. But, you know, people were asking me what if. It was that what-if moment. What if Labour don't do this and what if Labour don't do that? I said, we always do it. We'll campaign, we'll fight, and I'm an argument, and I'll keep arguing until we get where we need to be.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, it's not a role of a trade union general secretary to be consent. We're aspirational. Actually, if you listen to most politicians, they talk about being aspirational for the people that they represent. All trade unions do is a microcosm of that. So train drivers will always want to improve their conditions, will always want cost of living pay rises. They will always want a better future. It's my role to articulate that policy.”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I because on your radio show, I would not use some of the explosives I might have used outside of this room. Look, if you want to conflate the £2 billion that the Tories wasted on unnecessary strikes on the railways with the ten percent pay cut we took in real terms because we had in a pay rise for five years and then conflate that with the cost of the funeral allowance would be, you wouldn't do that and the people that are doing it are doing it deliberately provocatively unnecessarily creating a debate that isn't there”
2024-09-19 · Political Thinking with Nick Robinson · The Mick Whelan One · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source