YouSaid · the spoken record

Neal Katyal

lines on the record: 110
first: 2019-12-09
most recent: 2019-12-09
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“I have no idea the present, but it is so scary to me, particularly this deepfake stuff. I've been thinking a lot about it recently. I don't know what the tools to spoof and fool us are going to be so much greater. And I hope the technology to detect it will be commensurate, but I just don't know. And I certainly think it won't be evenly deployed among more powerful and less powerful. And because it's not going to be evenly deployed, it really scares me and it keeps me up at night.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And when you move forward, especially with this impact of social media, with disinformation, the Russians, I think they lost the Cold War and are winning this one, or whatever malevolent power. It doesn't have to be Russians. It can be anybody, any political operation. Is it going to be fully difficult to do this going forward with all these different social media things, not just social media, but when you get into AR, VR, fakes videos, everything else? How do you create, how do you fight against that?”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“King George III times two or something like that. He's really trying to maximize his powers in a way that's very flatly and consistent with our separation of powers. And, you know, speaking personally, yes, it's totally not a usual thing for a lawyer to do. And it's not easy to do. But I feel like I have to look in the mirror every day. And I see a grave threat to our democracy.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so some parts are anticipated. It's a big deal. Because they're right in the middle of King. Right. They didn't like King George III. And this president is basically trying to”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, you're always trying to get used. So when you look at this, like here you are, you've been a pretty finishing up here. You've been a pretty straightforward legal career, a high level one, but it's still like, you know, it's all been pretty normal. This is not normal. Or maybe, but it was anticipated by the founders, right? Sort of. This is all of this. When I started back, you know, I was listening to the woman from Stanford. I went back and read a lot. I'm like, wow, this really was anticipated. This was what they were most terrified of.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“after a vote. If he is out of the woods and he does win, it's just there could be more to come. And then he could say, oh, they're always trying to get me the whole time. And that will be his song. Right.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I'm not even a speculator as to what she does. Option two is that he doesn't get off and then he runs for re-election. But that isn't a fully getting off either because particularly if all the evidence didn't come out, there may be yet another impeachment proceeding against it, including even for this very same offenses. So the double jeopardy clause in our Constitution does not apply to impeachment. And so particularly if he hid evidence or if the Senate monkeyed around with the rules for the trial, then there will be a call for a new impeachment set of proceedings. And by the way, in November of 2020, the Senate may not be controlled by...”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so, well, or they can bar him from running for president again or anything else holding any position in the United States government. So that's option one. Option two is...”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“What happens on either way? So if he doesn't get off, he can be removed from office and then the Senate can take a further vote to ban him from any future office holding again. They don't have to, but they could.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And he can say other things too, right? Sure. He could say anything. He could say anything. All right. So after that, so say, it doesn't matter. Crazy, no, he gets off. So see, two ways. He gets off, he doesn't get off. And then we'll finish up. What happens besides the internet's head blows off? Okay. What happens on either way?”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Interview with first, and hear it very well may be that we'll see all of this both sides, we'll see all of this for the first time. And he can say everything.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We'll certainly be having more drama because normally you don't call someone in trial that you haven't deposed first on some.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. Talk to all the others, Clarence, or anything. No, in our Constitution, when the president is being impeached, he presides over it, but only him and not as a kind of member of the U.S. Supreme Court, but as the Chief Justice of the United States. And he does this stuff on his own. And indeed, the Supreme Court has said the federal courts have no business in impeachment doing anything. So it's just going to be the chief. And I think that is very...”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. So now what Bolton or Mulvaney or that Trump could do is try and quash the subpoena and say, oh no, he doesn't have to do it. And then that would go to the Chief Justice who will be presiding over this to decide. Oh, Robert. Exactly.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, this is a hard question. I think the ordinary rules will require the will give the Democrats a certain number of subpoenas so that they can go and get witnesses. So they'll ask and they'll seek an order basically to. She thought you had to follow, apparently not. Yeah, exactly. In the quaint old days when you had to actually follow the”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So I do think that there's a chance that we will see a Bolton testify and people and maybe Pompeo and Mulvaney. And each of them seems to have some pretty damning information. We don't know what it is yet. But look, if this were exculpatory to the president, if these folks were going to show that he was innocent, we would have heard it by now. A president is afraid of the truth coming out to the American people.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. And he had strong support in Congress and the like. And then all of a sudden it crumbled quickly. And, you know, we've seen this crumbling quickly around powerful men a lot in recent years. Yeah, everyone's seen. Exactly. And so I think it's premature at this point to say, oh, we know the outcome.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Which happened before, which happened before. Certainly, people are saying it's going to be just party lines and so on. I don't think so. I think that the evidence is going to be too strong. And these people came to Washington, even Republican senators, to try and some conception of the public good. And leaving this person in office and saying, this is okay is so antithetical to what our system's about. I hope and pray they do the right thing.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Um, Right, right. Sort of like passing the Equal Rights Amendment or something like that. It's just not going to happen. That's harder. And then presumably most people that I read today, for example, that's over. It's not going to go anywhere. Now you have a different point of view. It doesn't matter. They're going to vote on party lines and that's that.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think we're seeing projections from Mitch McConnell that it's going to be four to six weeks for the trial. And then there'll be a vote, article by article on whether or not to impeach the president. And here it requires a two-thirds to remove the president. And here it requires a two-thirds vote of the Senate to convict. And so that super majority was intentionally put in the document to make it hard. Right.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The whole Senate has to be there whether or not a committee has primary jurisdiction over anything. I'm not sure about that.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Just because I just literally, yeah, I think it's going to be a food fight between senators, and then also you'll have the private council for the president and so on, but which senators, which committees, you know, the judiciary committee will probably play a big role. But I don't think any of that's determined yet. And indeed, they solve it even figured out. Right now, the Senate released its calendar for 2020. And they left January completely blank because they don't know what's happening.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right? Because No, I think the house managers. Yeah, exactly. No, I think that you will see some of the house managers, but those will be the Democratic folks as the prosecutors. I don't think that the House Republicans will have, I think, I'm not positive about this, but I don't think that they'll have a role. I think that'll be up to the Senate side.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The judges aren't up there tweeting away To their outcomes affected by it. I don't think there's that much of an impact It's political and legal. People don't have to grandstand, which then becomes social media clips, which then becomes, and it used to be on TV, but those took a longer while.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I think there's two different questions. One is if I'm arguing like a Supreme Court case or something like that, I think social media has no real impact. So the judges aren't up there tweeting away. Some of them we think are on Twitter, but nonetheless, I don't think it matters one bit to their outcomes. And that's true, I think, in standard legal proceedings and federal courts at least. I don't think there's that much of an impact. But impeachments, the opposite end of that because it is a hybrid animal. It's this weird thing political and legal. And so there I do think actually social media is going to play a role. It's just that I think it's a little bit overstated because we are going to see something formal and solemn in the form of this trial in the Senate, which I think might hopefully reduce a little bit of the spin and put a little more of the eyes on what's actually. People don't have to grant.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's interesting when people say, why are we wasting? I'm like, we're not wasting our time. This is how we work in the United States of America. All the trials we have, even the terrible ones, even McCarthy, even the Salem Witch trials, it needed to see it, like to see what was wrong with it in both those cases and to understand the process. There needs to be an airing of this. And I agree with you. I find that to be the worst argument, is that I'm tired of this. And I do think that's born of a media system that has been infected by Twitchy social media ability not to pay attention, which Trump has taken advantage of beautifully. Now I'm going to do the next outrage. And then you're like, what? Like, okay, I'm going to move on to this one. I mean, I haven't forgotten Sharpie, but everyone has. And before that was Shithole countries. And before that was just on and on and on. Vin Men and every day. And then so you're caught up in the reaction to his reaction and creates a real problem. So when you're thinking about doing that from a legal point of view is...”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. And so I think that, yeah, sure, some of it will be spliced up and into spun in various ways. But I actually am more optimistic about the Senate trial and what happens as a result of it. And I think that once that trial happens and people see the evidence that the president is going to be removed, but whether or not I'm right about that, it's undoubtedly the duty of everyone in the Senate to go and have that full trial and educate the American people. Because history literally will be watching this. This is a grave moment in our democracy.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's, you know, I want to see. Goes to a trial. It's the main event And people are used to watching trials. They watch trial TV shows all the time. And, you know, from Perry Mason on down to Law and Order.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But thank you. But I found it to be actually essential because otherwise you get completely drowned out. You can write your op-eds and they die. I mean, even if they're in the New York Times, they die unless you're pushing them on social media and other people are. And so I do think that the whole nature of the debate has changed and there's a kind of premium, which a lot of people have on saying outrageous stuff in order to get noticed. And Rudy Giuliani is at the top of that. You know, I want to basically pay that guy's smartphone bill. I want to see, I want to give him 10 smartphones. But I think that as this unfolds, social media is actually going to be a little less important when it goes to a trial because a trial is solemn. It's the main event. And I think there'll be a hunger for that primary.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I do think that it will unfold in that environment. And one of the things that's been interesting for me, I'm not someone who use social media until just three years ago.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I know. I mean, not like the Clinton impeachment unfolded with none of this. And there was some talk radio. Right. There's little rush limb. That was the beginning of that.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We're here with Neil Katjal, the partner in the law firm Hogan Lovells. He's the author of a very timely new book called Impeach the Case Against Donald Trump. All right, so here we are. It's going to happen in Senate. This is going to be a social media melee. You have Brad Pascal or whatever they pronounce his dumb name. You've got Giuliani that pops in like a crazy person every now and then. You have Trump obviously using the medium. You've got Lindsay Graham. You've got Adam Schiff, who's quite good at it, you know, Elizabeth Warren jumps on in there all the time, and you do, and you and Conway, Judge Conway, talk a little bit about what's how changed because this didn't happen before, right? Like, it just wasn't like this.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“From my parents, and we'll see. He could fall the fastest. I don't know. Okay. If you say so, all right, we're here with Neil Katyal. He's the author of Impeach, the case against Donald Trump. We're going to take a quick break now. We'll be back after this to talk about the impact of social media and others in this upcoming trial in the Senate.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Nothing new. He's trying. Dora Coaster's trying his best. But, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. They'll keep lying. Why not? It is a really, and it's actually caught on with a lot of people. I've noticed it more in my reporting, is that they'll try to lie for a while and then not be horrified. The only problem is everyone else gets to pay when they lie. And this guy doesn't. He's done it his whole life. So that's what's fascinating is that when other people try this trick, they get burnt very badly. Yeah, I'm a big believer in karma.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I love this question because I have not thought about it, but basically, you know, as lawyers, and I know there's a popular image of lawyers in my mom, like she cried when I went to law school saying, lawyers are liars. But the actual truth of it is the lawyers I deal with all the time care consummately about the truth. Right, of course. You know, Republican lawyer, Democratic lawyer, almost every lawyer I know in this town is abhorrent at what Donald Trump is doing. So in our daily jobs, we don't see this degree of mendacity and to the extent that, you know, any of us make a mistake, we try and own up to it. And it may be the case, and as you're interviewing in journalism, interviewing companies and so on, they're more focused on spin and things like that.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Lying and not being sorry for it, then moving on to the next lie. And I think what happens is a lot of people on the other side are like, I can't believe you lied. And it's an interesting Washington trend, too, because often I met these Washington parties and they're like, can you believe it? I'm like, I can believe it. He did it 17 times. When exactly, you know, he's like an abusive spouse. He's going to keep hitting. Like, just like they don't get better kind of thing. And so it's a really, it's a fascinating thing because he does bust norms, right? And he busts right through them. Yeah. Legally a lot of the time, I think.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Anyone else because The twistiness and the lying, the constant lying. I think one of the things that's really interesting among this whole thing, and it probably is for someone like you who's a lawyer, is the constant, I'm used to constant lying, like the constant.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, and if you did think that way, then the Trump children would be guilty of investigation first before anyone else because they're sitting White House employees who were engaged in business dealings and the like. I mean, I don't personally like all this destruction of individuals and going after them, but the Trump folks opened the door to that. And I thought it was pretty ridiculous, and it showed basically the lack of integrity in the defense over president. Probably twisting.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And then the next thing I'm going to Yeah, the Republicans put it up there to say that, well, obviously that the investigation was legitimate. Even Neil Catial says that what Biden did was nefarious or wrong, whatever the words they used were. And they excerpted out the parts where I said, well, that doesn't justify any part of the investigation. Right, right. And you read.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, exactly. I mean, they're definitely, and the House Judiciary Committee started that already. I mean, I was shocked. They actually showed my book because I have this one.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Of the way things are actually done. Right. And despite all the testimony that says from all these Trump administration appointees that say, no, it's never done that way, never in our history, history or experience have we seen anything like this. But I think, you know, they'll have their set of alternative facts and they'll use those and we'll hear them over and over again in social media and other things. And there will be a hope that by throwing up all that chaff, a lot of handways.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Ethics. What would be your decision? So, their defense really is get over it. This helps us win. So it's just a pure power play. They can't say that out loud. I mean, Mick Mulvaney did for a moment, but he took it back. So I think their defense will instead be, oh, there's nothing wrong here. Everything here is up and up is typical.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, no, I think country over everything. And this is someone who is a real gravely has spit on the American democracy. Sorry.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Order him to resign. No, no, no. If you were him. No, exactly. No, as a lawyer, I would say, you know, you broke your oath. I mean, honestly, I think I can defend a lot of stuff. You're supposed to.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Kangaroo cord. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. things that can happen. And so I so what could happen? Like, how would it happen in a normal way? Not that any of this is normal, but because the next part, I want to talk about the social media impact and all this because everybody's using it. Like, literally, confessions are happening by the second, anytime Rajani tweets, it's like, oh, you did it? Okay. It's really interesting. And I want to understand how that plays with this or it really doesn't matter at all. But so in a normal way, it would go there'd be a try on each side would make their case or who's on which side?”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Correct. And so I think that's what led a lot of people in the popular media to say, oh, that's Trump's court, it's it, it's going to be over, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And, you know, I'm more of an optimist about our system, and I certainly think that we are premature in assessing what the Senate will do because we don't know, we don't necessarily have all of the evidence and information. We don't have all of Trump's reactions. This is not exactly the most stable person. And so, you know, it's a dynamic environment and a trial can bring out any number of things that can happen. Right. And so what...”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Word, but And how will that go? There's been a lot of back and forth right now between House Republicans and Republicans who are running the Senate, which is run by Mitch McConnell. So this moves to a body that is pro-Trump.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Require the senators to be there all day for six days a week and will require a trial with witnesses perhaps and things like that.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You can impede Congress can act. Yes, exactly. Congress can act. I'm not sure he ever quite came out and used the I word, but put pretty close. And so that's, I think, one of the struggles Congress is dealing with now. Mueller has teed up a certain set of allegations around Russia. Do they include those allegations formally as separate counts in the indictment? They might decide to include it and then maybe that doesn't get voted up and sent to the Senate. So that's possible. So I should say just to fill out the procedural question you asked once the House of Votes and it's just a simple majority vote they vote on each article and they say is he impeached for obstruction of justice or for bribery or whatever. And to impeach someone is not to remove them from office. It's just that formal accusation against them kind of like a grand jury indictment. It'll then move over to the Senate for a trial and the Senate rules are pretty detailed on this.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, it's what the Justice Department opinion says, at least. I think Mueller was careful not to ever specifically say he kept sending.”
2019-12-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Neal Katyal · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT