YouSaid · the spoken record

Paul Gillingham

lines on the record: 80
first: 2026-03-25
most recent: 2026-03-25
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“Well, you do get mass verbanization, and it's people being pushed out of the countryside by a deliberate transfer of resources. What do I mean by that? I mean that food prices are capped. And so the really key one, Mays, it's prices kept artificially low. This means that you can have an urban and especially industrializing workforce on the cheap. You can have really low wages. You can have quite low cost. And in Mexico, reasonably high quality industrialization, it all comes at the expense of the countryside. And so does the Ahido change that? No, not really. Also, the Ahido.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“This is in many ways a failure from their point of view, but there's always the psychological payoff that they have got land and then in more straightforward terms, this is one of the reasons that Mexico's healthcare system had a really nuts and bolts level works is because every communal farm, Ejido they're called, has a medical office. And so even though in the sort of apparent times of giving Mexico's rural population a new level of wealth, autonomy, it doesn't work particularly well. It brings a certain pride, it brings a certain independence, it brings good health care. There are all these less tangible benefits. There's nothing like it in the Americas and one of the key reasons I think that again the countryside stays largely quiescent while it is Stripped of resources in the sixty years after Carnes leaves office.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Get land on the condition that say they continue factory farming, so everyone's going to grow sugar, everyone's going to grow wheat. Not quite a Soviet Kolkots, but you don't have, the peasant doesn't have autonomy, which they want quite often to apply.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That fits into my story in It's Always Good Say I work in Trinity. So I'm going to say in three ways but then reserve the right say a fourth. And the first is that one of the key reasons the Mexican Revolution is land. Mexico is a strongly rural country with strong traditions of this autonomy, small freeholding or collective landowning in indigenous areas. And the Porfiriato sees a revolution in this, extraordinary concentration of land. entails obviously dispossession of the peasantry. This is one of the key things that leads people like Miliano Zapata to rebel. And so you have this sort of pent-up demand for land from millions of families. That's one. Two, it largely for many fails because they get land.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In the absolute pragmatic imperative, whatever you do, keep the lid on. Whatever needs doing, if it's repression, then generally conciliation works better. And this extremely complex equation, I think, is what keeps the army out of politics, what keeps relative peace and relative buy-in to this unequal single-party state. There's nothing like Mexico really is idiosyncratic in this, and it's extraordinary, as you can see, complicated recipe.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“From the party, the party says local candor X will run for election in Surrey, and that's it, democracy's finished. Mexico's not like that. And I think that's something that helps temper this radical inequality in qualitative terms, this apparent national sort of people call soft dictatorship. And then the final piece, and I'm sorry this answer goes on, but this is Just a central paradox which political scientists and historians have struggled to understand for decades, and I think we're finally getting a handle on it. The final piece is the immense war weariness caused by a revolution that kills one in ten Mexicans, and the education that gives leaders all the way to the 50s.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So just looking at gini coefficients for either income or wealth doesn't tell the entire story of what Mexicans get out of the revolution. And the final thing is precisely those elections. Because this is a one-party state and the elections are rigged. No question. All the way until the last decade really the national elections are rigged. But the local ones are not. Well, yes, they are actually, but any group of people who feel strongly enough, like they were, about their local autonomy about ruling themselves can make enough of a fuss about it that through the mechanism of election backed up by riot they can actually get their people in and so there is this unconventional but effective route to popular representation which at time outpunches the british because in the british system candidates just get imposed”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Going back to nineteen twenty nine with regular elections like clockwork every six years, every six years there's a peaceful transfer of power, there is never any even imagination of a january sixth moment there, and to make another comparison there is after nineteen twenty nine no assassination, whereas obviously here JFK, RFK, MLK, almost alphabet soup of assassination of leaders, progressive leaders. As you look at this and try and make it add up, it's extremely difficult. And I think it's in part because the inequality misses some of the benefits for the rapidly growing urban populations cinema to low housing risk to healthcare, Mexican healthcare, given its income band, is very, very good.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“My account, like, first of all, that's a major paradox, which really lay behind the subject of my doctorate and my last book. How do you account for the fact that Mexico has revolution, first of all, one of the great revolutions which lays down radical prescriptions for equality, which are then produced by one of the most unequal economies in the Americas? You've got Talking the Revolution, you've got massive enduring inequality. And yet you have this, as you point out abnormal.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Al Coaile is one of the states which benefits enormously from this global boom of the turn of the century, which translates into the US drawing investment and resources in a sort of unprecedented way. I think that it's taking half of British global investment at that time. And resources are desperately needed. The obvious thing in Kwaela is copper, copper mines. But you're on the border in Kwaila has a geography which stretches everything from arid mining territory through to really, really, re rich irrigated lands. And so it's wealthy. It's next to the US. You get a class of big landowners who are very diversified, very cosmopolitan, so Madeiro was educated in part in Paris, in part in Berkeley, and they look southwards and think this is a slightly sclerotic. dictatorship we can do better”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's the way Kobar used to be, Yucatan, and Sochalco in Morelos, which they've really, and I'm glad about this, they've really expanded in the last 20 years. The dig, the tourism potential. So they should have because it's stunning.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Funny. I say that to people and they go this is heresy, but yeah, frankly, given the plethora of archaeological sites in Makha, Emonte Alban combines is the most boring, large one by a country mile. It's extraordinary. So I'm so glad that endorsed. I hope there aren't too many Oaxake and your listeners to this particular podcast.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, I think that's actually quite true. And maybe there's a book in this, Tyler. I'm not going to write it, but there's a book in this sociologically explain the significance and quality of restaurants 20 minutes outside major towns in Mexico. If I could ask you while you're there, what did you think of Monti Alban?”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“First of all, very good strategy. The best meal I had in Yucatan by country mile was about half an hour outside Merida, and it was the same thing ask a local taxi driver, come on, if you want a really good meal, where would you go? And you say, ah, it's a bit of a drive. And you say, okay, I can see perverse incentive in my question. But when you end up in a sort of small warehouse, really in the middle of nowhere, stuffed full of Mexican people with the most incredible deer, you think, okay, you know, I actually think this was a fair reflection. I envy that meal.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Is really a superb cuisine. One of the best. I would say and Yukateko cuisines, head and shoulders above the rest of Mexico. And so I don't know how much that draws well I do actually there's quite a lot of sort of culinary tourism which tends to be rich tourism in Oaxaca these days and so I think that's another draw. It's extraordinary in fact how many people have realized that over the last fifteen or so years and formed these sort of expatriate almost colonies in Oaxaca. It's a fantastic place to live.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I love that, and I would say in part because one of the traditional tourist attractions of Mexico is precisely indigenous culture. And because of this autonomy, Oaxaca is preserved, you know, a multitude of very strong indigenous cultures. I think, yes, that, I'd add to that that it's comparatively safe, a key consideration. But that's a recent thing. Tourism in Oaxaca goes back a long time. I think it's also because you have this stunning colonial city in Oaxaca City is really beautiful. And we have in the US nothing at all or Canada. We've got nothing like that. Finally, and I actually believe this, Mexican cuisine is very, very diverse. People think Mexican cooking, tacos, well, yes, but. And we're hacking cooking.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Largely independent and very decentralized, and so it's a question of it's almost like New England democracy is firstly independent small cities, counties, and every time Oaxaca gets a chance, it seizes it to really push for autonomy and political power. And you really see this to wrap up this rather tangential explanation, the direct ancestor comes with independence, where suddenly towns are allowed to declare themselves counties with their own governments, their own elections, very competitive ones, and Wahhaka does it to an extraordinary extent every village in Oaxaca says we are now a county. It's almost like Swiss cantons. It's this extraordinary Democratic urge, and that trains people to be good at politics.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That is such a good question because it is something which really stands out to add data points to that at one stage under Diaz, something like two sides of the congressman are actually effectively from Oaxaca. And while Congress is sort of a rubber stamp, nevertheless tells you something. And I think this goes back. This is the culmination of a very long-term trend of Oaxakan political savvy and relative independence. Our Oaxaquenos are good at politics and they are very politically engaged. If you want to make huge leaps, you say, ah, well, that goes back to the conquest of the 16th century where Spanish rule sort of flows around them. Why? Because people who live in mountains tend to be quite good at war and quite prickly. And the Oaxaqueos epitomize this. And so outside the main valley, Oaxaca stays”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“When the Mexican independence forces take a European imposed emperor and shoot him, which is not done, you don't shoot emperors in global history. The Mexicans do. And this is a clear declaration of independence. And it's an end to other empire's pretensions, and it's the beginning of stabilization led by a brilliantly gifted. And this is a word I would almost never use, but a brilliantly gifted politician Portfriio Dias, who benefits from this being a time of a global boom when the rest of the world, the industrial world craves Mexican resources and Diaz is very savvy to ride that into a new era where Mexico becomes the epitome of a successful what used to be called developing nation. And it's with that that you get Infrastructure”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Accounts to change is first of all the final achievement of independence and formally in the history books 1821 the Spanish leave Mexico's independent and new stage starts and that's not actually true and just in terms of the Spanish leaving well they don't they maintain a garrison on the key fortress in the main port controlling the entrance to Mexico from the Atlantic, the Port of Vera Cruz the Spanish stayed there till 1829 controlling it they don't really leave within two years of them finally leaving you have a French invasion a failed one grant but still an invasion still that instability then you get obviously American invasions then you get a civil war then you get I'm sure we'll go into this in a minute my point is that it's not till 18”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Can it be said to work when any sort of political project, can it be said to have worked when there are very few people there in the beginning? And Quintana Ru is historically really low population. Most of the Yucatan was concentrated closer towards Merila and that west coast. And Quintanaru really takes off because of mass tourism. And that's because of state intervention relatively recently. Gangun was a village until the late 60s, early 70s.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Oh, that's an extremely good question. Quintana Ru is very much its own country. And in fact, in the cast wars, which you mentioned, there's a very strong east-west divide on the peninsula, and the east is where the Maya rebels really survive the most. And so I think that it's an attempt to sort of administratively corral the more unstable, difficult to rule parts of the country using Yucatan, then your point made as a country. It's an attempt to corral them and say, okay, we can send armies in there, we can try and prevent contagion. And the idea you can do that by drawing a line on the map is obviously profoundly optimistic. It's more terrain and settlement, which keeps Quintadaru different from the rest of the peninsula.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Stability is better for business anywhere, and you could then there's more of an imperative for that. So that's one. And the other is that it has ceased being what it used to be, which is a major transshipment route. And so when I proposed to my wife on a beach in Qindanaru, we could go out at 8am next to Tulum when Tulum was a small, dusty town. We could go out and twice a day we would see small planes coming up from Central America and we knew perfectly well as they headed north up through Quintana Room that this was a drugs run. As a transshipment route it has been far surpassed and so that other great reason for violence is absent.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Again, a good question, and it is, I think, explains broader patterns of drugs, violence in Mexican history. The first is that Foreigners in Mexico have cartlanche or what in colonial time Picola Fuero foreigners are untouchable, and because much of Yucatan the Yucatan economy centers on tourism, the Riviera Maya, Cosumela, etc., there's an awful lot in these key populated coastal strips of foreigners, killing them is bad business.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Centered in Merida, they have no interest whatsoever in leading an independent struggle, and while the Maya achieve an underestimated level of sophistication as a state, it's still not at the point where you would get for more than a couple of years a really joined up independence movement spanning all races, all areas, and the entire peninsula.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“People find themselves being asked whether they want a Yuktanbeer or a foreign beer. And a foreign beer being anything in Mexico outside Yucatan. Why doesn't Yucatan leave? I think that it came extremely close. And in fact, there's a moment in the 1840s when Mexico and Texas form an alliance. And Texas is chartering warships out to Yucatan to try and prevent any naval incursions. Why on earth does Yucatan stay? I think it's because of the absence of an alternative capital because Yucatan is profoundly racially divided. It's one of the, I think, few places in Mexico where you say that really is a fairly stark racial divide and you have a plantocracy. Some ways like the US South for the Civil War. You've got a relatively small white plantocracy.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yucatan has always felt itself to be a different country, effectively. And that runs through to the present. You can see the cultural reasons, obviously, and the Maya, the other great, sophisticated urban culture of the sixteenth century and before. And so it makes sense that they should feel themselves very different from the rest of what becomes Mexico. And in fact, it comes through in small but revealing ways and back in the twentieth century.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Federalism is built into Mexico's soul, and I think that's one of the reasons from early on Mexico actually out punches the rest of the Americas in terms of sticking together as a territorial unit.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And elsewhere, you look at other post colonial states, thinking particularly of India, within a couple of years, you fragmented and failed. Mexico doesn't. Mexico actually stands up with the exceptions you put of Central America, which is formerly part of it, in fact, that leaves within short order. And so it's one of these questions of what Alvaren Riee calls the miracle that Mexico exists. And to explain it is a paradox. To make a triad at it, I think that there is a common theme in Mexican history, which runs across most of those five centuries, which is a remarkable degree of hands off government. It's very difficult to rule from a central any central pole. And so savvy governments, or governments with no choice, which are quite often same thing, are very hands-off.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“A very good question because it's one of the things that really makes Mexico stand out in that period, those histories, is that after independence, the rest of the Americas, you get a series of super states. And so you get Gran Colombia, which is most of the Andes and going across what's now Venezuela, you get the United Provinces of the Rio Plate. And these are huge and very difficult to conceive of super states, and they fail within a decade.”
2026-03-25 · Conversations with Tyler · Paul Gillingham on Why Mexico Stays Together · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source